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Author Topic: Questions on Library Import  (Read 2333 times)

Absinthe

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Questions on Library Import
« on: September 05, 2019, 12:01:30 pm »

Last night I ripped a CD on another machine (using another running copy of MC, using a local library).  The files were populated with the usual things, track name, track number, artist name, audio levels and so on.  I dumped them in a network drive location, then went over to my music server and imported the files into the shared library.  Unfortunately, when the MC server imported them, the track numbers, date, artist name and album name were blank.  Is this normal?  Did I screw up something along the way?  I would think that if files are ripped and tags are generated, at least the ID3 tag portion would be imported?? 
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Moe

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Re: Questions on Library Import
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2019, 12:38:31 pm »

Did you try "Update library from tags"? 
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Absinthe

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Re: Questions on Library Import
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2019, 02:59:16 pm »

Did you try "Update library from tags"?

Huh, I would have though this was implicit in the import operation.  If your importing, import the tags on the files as well; not just the audio files.  Ironically, this only happens when I use another copy of MC to rip the disc and then import the files into the music server running MC.  This seems contrary to the setting on the tag: "Tag #". which is specified to "save in file tag (when possible)"  When I rip with dbPowerAmp, its not an issue.
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Moe

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Re: Questions on Library Import
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2019, 03:04:36 pm »

I would think so too.  But if trying what I suggested works, then at least the data is there and there may be a setting that you're missing or a bug.
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Absinthe

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Re: Questions on Library Import
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2019, 03:11:41 pm »

I would think so too.  But if trying what I suggested works, then at least the data is there and there may be a setting that you're missing or a bug.

I'd have to rely on one of the software developers or experts on MC to say it was a bug.  For now, its just an anomaly for me and I have a workaround and a process that works :)
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Moe

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Re: Questions on Library Import
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2019, 03:38:16 pm »

Does updating library from tags work?
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Absinthe

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Re: Questions on Library Import
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2019, 07:08:45 pm »

Does updating library from tags work?

When the disc was ripped with another copy of MC (with a local library) the update library from tags worked.  However, the tags were complete after importing when I ripped with dbPoweramp so Yes, it worked, but still not sure it its an idiosyncrasy, a bug, or feature :)
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RoderickGI

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Re: Questions on Library Import
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2019, 08:43:47 pm »

Your standalone version of MC that you use for ripping isn't set to write tags to the ripped files. DBPowerAmp is set to write tags, which is why it works.

Check the settings on the copy of MC you use for ripping.

Tags will be imported with the files if they are in the files. Unless the files have been imported before and then deleted, and there were values in the tags previously, in which case MC will not overwrite tags, and will use the tags from the Removed Database.

I'm assuming these are audio files, given you refer to DBPowerAmp. If they are video files then the MC Sidecar files come into play.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

Absinthe

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Re: Questions on Library Import
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2019, 02:38:02 am »

Your standalone version of MC that you use for ripping isn't set to write tags to the ripped files. DBPowerAmp is set to write tags, which is why it works.

Check the settings on the copy of MC you use for ripping.

I went through the Tools - Options and listed everything I ran across that mentioned tags.


  • Library & Folders - Configure Auto Import - Write file tags when analyzing audio, getting cover art, and applying folder-based tag (Checked)   There are no folders set up to auto-import since this copy of MC is only used for ripping.
  • General - Importing & tagging - Update tags when file info changes (checked)
  • General - Online Metadata - Allow automatic CD Lookup / Submission (checked)
  • File Location - Cover Art - Also store image in the file's tag (checked)


Did I miss something?
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glynor

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Re: Questions on Library Import
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2019, 08:35:12 am »

Unfortunately, when the MC server imported them, the track numbers, date, artist name and album name were blank.  Is this normal?  Did I screw up something along the way?

How did you import them on the Server?

If you used any of the "weird" import methods (on playback, drag-drop, or the shell extensions) then MC imports them "raw" and doesn't do the usual import processing. I'm not positive this includes not reading the embedded tags (I know Carnac and Tag on Import don't run) but that could be it. More detail:
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Import

Also, had matching files ever been imported on the Server previously (files with the same filenames) as part of a test? Because if you re-import items which were (once upon a time) already imported, then MC doesn't re-import them, it "un-deletes" them from the database. So, if you had them in the Library on the server from some previous test, and removed/deleted them, and then re-imported the new rips (which had matching filenames because you're not an animal and have a file naming convention) MC might have thought they were the same files and un-deleted them rather than importing them from scratch.

Lastly, it is also possible that Auto-Import tried to import them before the network copy was done copying. This is relatively rare for me, but I've seen it happen before (and I have a very high-performing network volume for media). If your network drive is slow, and so the file-copy to it took a long time, the Auto-Import on the server may have been triggered before the write was complete. Then when it tried to analyze the files on Import they were "broken" effectively and didn't (yet) contain any tags. Any time stuff like this happens, the manual Update Library (from Tags) is the answer.
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Absinthe

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Re: Questions on Library Import
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2019, 06:29:20 pm »

All good things to be aware of the next ripping party I throw!  Thanks Glynor, Moe, Roderick for your thoughts and ideas. 
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RoderickGI

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Re: Questions on Library Import
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2019, 07:02:59 pm »

Glynor has covered lots of the issues in more detail than I, but this might e a hint;

There are no folders set up to auto-import since this copy of MC is only used for ripping

I haven't tested, but if you are ripping on the standalone installation of MC and not importing them using Auto Import, then that may fall into the category of "weird" import methods. I think that MC will still do all the lookup for the CD tracks, and imports them into the Library, but it may not write the tags to the files, just storing them in the Library.

You could test that easily of course. Just rip a never before seen (new) CD on the standalone installation, and then look in the file using a third-party application, or Windows Explorer, and use MC to look at the Tag Dump (tags in the actual files) area.

PS: When I rip on my Workstation installation of MC I import the tracks and have Auto Import running. The tags are saved in the files as expected, and when I copy them across to my HTPC the tags are all picked up as expected.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

glynor

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Re: Questions on Library Import
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2019, 08:29:26 pm »

Nah. I think files ripped within MC implicitly get imported (directly by the ripping engine), and it is not reliant on Auto-Import. I’m not 100% sure of this, but I’d be pretty surprised.

Also, to be clear, I don’t know that drag-drop and whatnot don’t read tags (I suspect they do, in fact) but I’m not sure about that. I know those methods I mentioned don’t support Carnac or Tag on Import, but I’m not sure about other limitations. And, FWIW, using Tools > Import (the one-time, single-directory style) definitely does not have any of those limitations.

I think my last guess above is the most likely.
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RoderickGI

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Re: Questions on Library Import
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2019, 09:16:43 pm »

Yes, ripped files are automatically imported into the Libray used for the ripping. But are the tags still written to the files? I would hope they are. They are in my installation, but I am running Auto Import on the local Library that I use for ripping.

I think your second last guess is most likely. People get caught out by the "Removed Database" functionality all the time. Absinthe has been testing for a while, probably repeating the process with the same CDs.

I haven't had any issues with files being imported before a network copy completes, at least for audio files. I rip DVDs and Blu-rays on my server, so they aren't an issue in this regard. I would have expected MC to respect the "File in use" condition of a file being copied, and either wait to try to import it, or come back to it later, or skip it, in which case Auto Import would pick it up later on a timed run.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

wer

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Re: Questions on Library Import
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2019, 10:28:10 pm »

Glynor's right that there can be irregularities with auto-import grabbing a file before it is fully written.  I have had that happen when ripping with dbPa to a monitored folder, or when copying bluray rips across the network into a monitored folder.  Strange things can result sometimes.
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Absinthe

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Re: Questions on Library Import
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2019, 03:01:10 pm »

Thanks all for your feedback.  I made a few changes in the network configurations between the client and the server (which probably amounted to nothing!) and set up a local library on the stand-alone MC machine and allowed it to populate with those tracks I've ripped.  I also enabled auto-import with the appropriate audio folders and settings.  I then ripped 10 CD's never before seen to my library.  The rips were all performed in secure mode and encoded to FLAC with recommended compression.  The second round of rips were performed with the latest version of dBpowerAmp CD Ripper (V16.6).  Aside from the physical testing of both rippers and ripping methods, I make no claims to the technical details of either piece of software; and my wish list items are strictly my own based on my work flow process.   Here are my results:

Pro's:  The stand-alone MC successfully ripped all 10 CD's even two discs that were horribly scratched.  With the exception of the three unreadable tracks, everything was successfully ripped.  The tracks were then imported successfully with the following tag data intact (Track Name, Track Genre, Track #, Album, Artist, Duration, Date).  Using the library tool “Rename, Move & Copy Files” provided a straight forward method to move the files from the “rip” folder into the database folder. 

Con's:  MC tagging options made use of less source material; while dBpoweramp used Discogs, freedb, MusicBrains and GD3.  I Can't say that the additional sources made much of a difference in the quality of metadata returned, but one curious thing that did make the eventual cataloging of the media easier was the inclusion of the catalog # which MC did not populate. 

Impressions:  I can see why dBpoweramp is so popular, it does one thing only and nothing else.  You don't need to worry about the status of your library, or whether auto-import is set up; or if there is some check box you forgot to check to ensure the tags are written to the file.  Don't get me wrong, those settings and features on MC have an important role and with great power comes great responsibility to learn how to use that power constructively.  However, for the user who just wants to rip their discs quickly and efficiently, dBpoweramp wins.  I’m not sure if there is a clear solution to this issue with regards to MC, it comes down to the user becoming knowledgeable of how to wield the power that MC brings to the table 

The metadata options through dBpoweramp are copious; although I’m not sure if this is much of a benefit unless your ripping obscure discs.  The inclusion of a MusicBrains ID tag makes metadata lookup from Music Brains easy but the inclusion of the Catalog # is what allows the lookup links within MC to shine.  I was able to find the exact release in Discogs much quicker.  I usually only had to drill down through the media format (CD, Album) and the Country and I was at the correct page.  The Allmusic searches were often better in that I usually hit the artist and album in a list with the correct target at the top of the list.   

On the two damaged discs, MC was able to recover the complete disc on one and 9 out of 12 tracks on the other.  I let dBpoweramp run for over an hour and it never completed the first scratched disk; the second disc failed with three unrecoverable tracks (9/12).  While not necessarily a deal breaker, I'm not waiting more than 5-10 minutes to rip a disc and then I'm moving on.  I feel that MC respects my time to a greater extent by admitting when a disc is a lost cause, and moving on.  As far a file size, the completed rips were within 5% of each other before I added them to the MC library.   
In this scenario where I rip at a different location (different computer) the winner in my mind is to use dBpoweramp to rip the discs to a central location on a network drive, then move to the Server version of MC and import the files, flesh out the rest of the tags then  move the physical files into the library portion of the disk.  Using this method, I can rip from virtually any computer with a minimum of setup.  Using MC required a little more installation and setup to get it right, plus the missing Catalog # slowed down the Discogs and Allmusic metadata searches. 
The real downside of this is by ripping with an MC that is not connected to the shared database is that none of the custom tags that are part of the shared DB can be populated prior to ripping (AMG Album ID, Discogs Release ID).  This moves 100% of the metadata scraping to the import process.  Not a big deal but it’s my preference to populate the two ID fields during the rip and not during the import.

My Wishlist:
  • Add the catalog # field to the metadata lookup fields
  • Allow MC to rip from client machines
  • Allow MC to make use of MusicBrains, Discogs, freedb, GD3 when scraping metadata.  Perhaps treat each metadata source as a plug in.  As more and more plug-ins are added, more metadata becomes available.
  • Configure the metadata plug-in to custom select what tags to scrape
  • If you scrape metadata from Discogs, Allmusic or MusicBrains, store the ID key as a tag
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