Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[RD James]

This is why I've been moving away from HTPCs in general.
The convenience factor is not there at all any more.
 
Want to know how I watch a movie or a TV series?

• I press the Home button on my Apple TV remote. This wakes up the Apple TV and switches on the television and speakers via HDMI-CEC.
• If something was paused, it resumes immediately. If not, I press the Mic button and tell Siri what I want to watch.
  
• I hit play and it picks up where I left off in the series.

If I want to use Bluetooth headphones, I switch them on and it automatically mutes the TV/external speakers. If I disconnect them, the media pauses. If I resume playback, it plays via my speakers.
When I'm done, I hold the Home button and select sleep, which turns all devices off.
 
For music, I have an Echo Dot (with clock) in every room, connected to speakers.
I say "Alexa, play X" and it just starts playing from the linked Spotify/Amazon Music account.
These Echo devices have many other uses too: controlling heat/lighting, switching other devices on/off, and controlling devices via IR/RF commands.
 
I also have AirPlay 2-compatible receivers hooked up to every speaker, if the speaker itself does not support that natively - either an AirPort Express v2 or an Apple TV, depending on whether there's also a TV there.
You can easily cast music or video which is playing on a mobile device directly to any of these, and add/remove rooms with a tap.
It all plays in sync, and it just works.
 
I've been considering replacing my HT speaker setup with the new Sonos ARC, since that is an Atmos-compatible system with wireless rear speakers/subwoofer which supports AirPlay 2 and Alexa voice commands.
It would replace the need for an Echo in that room, and would mean I can stream music to it without the Apple TV also waking up the display.
The only reason I have not yet is that it doesn't support multichannel LPCM; only Dolby formats, and there's no spec for latency - both of which are important for gaming.
 

Now, there are of course downsides to this:
There's a lot of media I have locally on my PC which is not available on streaming services here.
For video, I use the Infuse app on iOS/TVOS. This app lets me stream directly from the PC or download/play a local copy.
There's no reason it needs to be a PC though; there's no app running there. It's just accessing network shares.
Note: I bought the larger Apple TV before I found out that the download feature only works on mobile devices.
 
Image and sound quality are mostly perfect, as it plays everything natively without transcoding.
However, DVD sources are not: Upscaling/Processing, IVTC, and Re-Clocking the video to 24p on an HTPC running Media Center does produce better image quality.
But the convenience is not there, and I don't have many DVDs which have not been replaced with Blu-rays these days.
 
Infuse syncs my watched status and playback progress across these devices, so I can pick-up and play anywhere.
The downside is that navigation doesn't let me use all the customized views that JRemote/Media Center has, so my file naming structure is not optimal for it.
And since the database lives inside Infuse, if I were to reorganize it on the PC I'd lose all of my existing metadata. But JRemote doesn't even sync progress with Media Center.
It has an option to link to a Plex server as a back-end, so maybe that would work; but I never really liked how Plex worked so I haven't got around to doing that.
 
For music which is not available on streaming platforms, I'm still streaming to devices using JRemote, as I've not found a better option.
The frustrating thing is that I would actually prefer to play from the PC directly rather than stream to a mobile device and then to the speakers, but if I stream directly from the PC to the speakers via AirPlay, voice commands do not work to skip playback or adjust volume on any of the smart speakers.
That works via JRemote, but it's an unnecessary drain on the battery, and only basic playback/volume controls work. I can't start playing a new album/playlist via voice commands.
 

I have talked about this extensively in the past, saying that the direction Media Center needed to head in was a focus on things like search-driven navigation/playback and convenience rather than many of the avenues they have gone down. For example:

What would be really useful to me, is if Play Doctor was updated to act as a universal search field.
This would be a "smart" search field:

• I could type an album name, hit enter and have it play the whole thing.
• Type an artist name and have it queue up their discography - optionally shuffling the albums (not tracks).
• Enter the name of a movie and have it start playing fullscreen in the correct zone.
• Enter the name of a director or actor and list all of their movies.
• Enter a TV series and have it pick up where I left off, queuing up all unplayed episodes.
• Enter the name of a podcast and have it start playing from the most recent episode, optionally working backwards through the list.
• Type the name of a song or genre to generate a Play Doctor list.

It should be as easy as typing one or two words, selecting an item from the results, and having that media automatically play in the correct zone (no matter where search was initiated).
 
I think this is one of the large reasons that more people are moving towards online media these days - even people that have been heavily invested in using Media Center in the past.
You don't have to manage it or go hunting for it. You type the beginning of what you're looking for, it shows up in a list and plays when you select it, picking up where you left off.
 
It doesn't have to replace the traditional library browsing experience, but I would like my primary interface for Media Center to become a search box.
I would like to see the search presentation improved as well, but maybe that's not something for MC24.
What I am imagining would primarily be an enhancement of the current Play Doctor at the moment.
It seems like Media Center has most if not all of the functionality required to power such a feature, but it needs the interface for it.

I found this topic from 2014 about improving search usability too: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,93194.msg642490.html

[RD James]

Why was this split into its own thread? It was a direct response to your post, Jim:

I've been thinking about this for a while.  When I want to watch a movie and the hour is getting close, my blood pressure rises a little.
First I turn on the equipment.  Receiver, TV, and PC.  That's usually the easy part, though most other people in the house find it baffling.

Then I start a browser.  Usually Chrome.  Then I can't remember what it was I wanted to watch.  I realize this is a special problem that only people over 70 (gasp) have.
Where was I?  OK.  I remember.  I want to watch Peter Gunn.  I bought the series on Amazon... or maybe it was Netflix.  Go back and search on Google for "Movie Peter Gunn".  This is a key point and Google does a fairly good job.  It shows me the movie I want, where it's available, and the price.
I can usually find it, but there is lately still another problem.  Chrome isn't working.  I think it's because they decided Flash support was going to be discontinued, but I haven't bothered to try to find the reason.  I just switch to Internet explorer... after I've done it wrong again by trying Chrome.
Now I'm at Amazon (or some other place) and they've decided I need to log in again.  Fine.  I've done this every night for a few weeks.  It used to keep me logged in.  But fine.
"Honey, your dinner is getting cold."  "Be there in just a minute."  I'm lying but maybe she won't notice.
Now, what really bugs me is that I have to search for "Peter Gunn" at Amazon and then I get a lot of stuff.  I have to remember what season and episode I'm on and find it.
With some luck I'm there before my dinner is in the dog's dish.

Once we start to watch, the screen goes black a couple of times when the service switches into some mode that makes sense to it -- maybe it's for copy protection.  Then we get the pre-amble we've watched in every episode for the last couple weeks, then the movie starts.
Still not done though.  The cursor stays on the screen, and if the cursor is at the bottom the menu stays up too.  And the browser needs to be set to full screen.

MC can capture the sound with our WDM driver so that my Media Center remote's volume works, but the navigation won't work.  If the movie was playing in JRiver, I could pause it with the OK key on the remote and resume it again by doing the same.  I could fast forward and rewind, just like a VCR!
But when the movie is played in a browser, only the keyboard can do any navigation.  Space bar might pause and resume.  It might not.   Each service has a different idea of what the interface should be.

All I can say about this is "Ugh".  It stinks.
Am I alone here? 
Because I have a plan.  It's going to take a lot of money, but I have a plan.

[stewart_pk]

This is why I've been moving away from HTPCs in general.
The convenience factor is not there at all any more.

I'm not sure the convenience factor was ever truly there.
My old man who is in mid 70's has a HTPC that I gave him and he loves it because he can consistently access streaming services via a web browser with a HTPC touchpad keyboard controlling the PC.
He does not care about 4K or ATMOS or even surround sound.
But I'd never put JRiver into the mix with the WDM driver for him.
For one he wouldn't appreciate it and two it would cause endless end-user experience drama.

[darky]

I think "convienence" is kinda personal to every one.
SOme peopel want simple and relaxt set up. Others want it flexible. I want to be able to a bit of everything with it.,,and 4k..and atmos..and gaming..and buy stuff for it.
Others want their wife to be able to operate it.

I had all-in-one solutions previously. Made my wife happy. But i didn't like the limits of upgrading and such.
Together with JMC ..I enjoy it every week..and my wife gladly also. ( she only doesn't like all the wires  lol)

[timwtheov]

A couple of other issues with streaming-only, or streaming-primarily:

• Quality: this was mentioned above, but madVR + all of JRiver's sound stuff is hard to replace with streaming. Yes, Apple TV+ or Netflix, with their 4K content, look great on a capable TV, but for those of us really into film, blu-ray/UHD mkv + madVR is hard to beat. I actually like the madVR-based image on my 1080p HTPC TV better than our new 4K that uses primarily streaming apps (internal or through an Nvidia Shield).
• Availability: this is probably the biggest one for me regarding HTPC vs. (mostly) streaming. Take film: while it's great that there are streaming services for non-mainstream movies, like Criterion or Mubi (in the US) or BFI (in the UK), even these are somewhat limited in their content, as they take stuff away every month, even while they add new stuff. That's fine, I guess, and probably a practical necessity to some degree, but it's probably mostly driven by licensing. What if I don't want to watch that Godard or Fassbinder film now but will in 2 months when it's gone? I find that endlessly frustrating. Music streaming has some of this too. One summer, I added a bunch of Karel Ancerl (long time Czech conductor of the Czech Philharmonic, one of the best orchestras in the world) albums to a number of Spotify playlists. It was good that they had those albums in the first place, but then two months later, all those albums were gone--frustrating.

[Vocalpoint]

Others want their wife to be able to operate it.

This is really all in comes down to for those of us with families. While I love to "mess" around with all the cool HTPC tech that MC delivers - none of that translates well to family viewing.

This is why I put in a Smart TV and a Roku box. Takes her about 10 seconds to find her show and relax. The less questions and tech support I have to provide - the better

VP

[thecrow]

I have to agree with the comments in this thread.
I am interested in getting the best quality I can out of my media both video and audio.
I am particularly interested in what MadVR can do for my movie playback.
BUT I gave up on my HTPC after repeatedly being frustrated that when I just want to sit down and watch a movie I found myself struggling to workout why things were not working/behaving as they should.
I now just use JRiver as a DLNA server to feed media to hardware like my Oppo bluray, LG OLED, Marantz AV amp etc.
I would love to explore what MadVR can do for me but no longer have the patience to put up with things not working when I need them to.

[Vocalpoint]

I would love to explore what MadVR can do for me but no longer have the patience to put up with things not working when I need them to.

I have yet to know (or see what) MadVR does - and I do have a HTPC with MC on it in our Media room.

To my eyes - the movies look good as they should. Without any fancy setup at all.

What exactly am I missing here "Mad VR" fans?

VP

[Manfred]

To watch a movie in my MC Library stored on my media server I have to do:

1. Press the power button on my media renderer
2. Windows boots with autologon, MC starts automatically
3. Get my iPad into my hands, open JRemote, select the appropriate zone (headphone or speakers) pick up a movie or an episode of a series and hit play.

Is that complicated ?

Yes , I have to import the movie/series into MC and add sometimes some metadata. Also I love to play with Devialet AIR, Devialet USB ASIO, HDMI/optical to comapre them regarding SQ - but this is my hobby.

[tij]

I have yet to know (or see what) MadVR does - and I do have a HTPC with MC on it in our Media room.

To my eyes - the movies look good as they should. Without any fancy setup at all.

What exactly am I missing here "Mad VR" fans?

VP

well ... to be totally honest scaling of 1080p to 4k ... chroma upscaling of 4k ... not much difference between madVR and LG E9

but ... you need madVR for 3D frame pack ... scaling of DVD to 4k imo does have visual benefits ... and HDR tone mapping is color/hue accurate

last one is hard to spot unless you know what to look for ... most HDR content remains within what TV can display, so TV tone mapping is good ... its only very bright scenes that TV usually fail to preserve color accuracy and change hue (eg on LG E6 adds greeninsh hue in Deathly Hallows 2 during train station scene)

Whether that affects visual experience is debatable ... but that goes for CD vs mp3 and DSD vs CD ... so to each  their own

Also ... MadVR tone mapping quality is much more proonounce for projectors where light output is far from what HDR requires

[timwtheov]

I have yet to know (or see what) MadVR does - and I do have a HTPC with MC on it in our Media room.

To my eyes - the movies look good as they should. Without any fancy setup at all.

It's subtle, I think, but after I used the expert guide on the wiki and the image in the 2nd link

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/MadVR_Expert_Guide

https://i.imgur.com/HLv1qmj.png

I think my 1080p setup looks a bit better than the standard ROHQ. I'm aware, however, that this stuff is VERY subjective; thus, maybe it was just the effort of going through the guide that made it all appear "better." 

Do note that the guide is a bit outdated in a couple of areas (part of that image, for example). But in the main it's good.

[rec head]

My HTPC will remain my main source for watching UHD and I will continue buying disks. It works great. Depending on your TV MadVR can be a huge improvement over your TV's upscaling. I have a 2016 LG OLED with so-so upscaling. In general it does a decent job but when it doesn't it is really obvious.

But most streaming boxes are super easy to use and offer decent quality. I never use streaming on the HTPC.

[RD James]

I have yet to know (or see what) MadVR does - and I do have a HTPC with MC on it in our Media room.
To my eyes - the movies look good as they should. Without any fancy setup at all.
What exactly am I missing here "Mad VR" fans?

• The upscaling for low resolution sources is much better than most other devices - and you have options to tune this to your preferences.
  
• It can apply IVTC to DVD movies and extract a 24p output instead of 60Hz with a 3:2 cadence (which stutters).
• It has advanced image processing features like de-banding which results in smoother gradients, and can minimize blocking in compressed sources.
• Best-in-class HDR to SDR conversion. Many people even prefer this to their display's native HDR support - particularly projector owners.

For me, the biggest difference is with DVD and HD (not FHD/UHD) sources.
DVDs can look dramatically better via madVR than any other renderer/playback device I've used - even very expensive scalers from companies like Lumagen.
With HD/UHD sources the benefits are far less - though the debanding can still make a noticeable difference, as does the HDR conversion if your display doesn't have great HDR support.

[TheShoe]

I have to agree with the comments in this thread.
I am interested in getting the best quality I can out of my media both video and audio.
I am particularly interested in what MadVR can do for my movie playback.
BUT I gave up on my HTPC after repeatedly being frustrated that when I just want to sit down and watch a movie I found myself struggling to workout why things were not working/behaving as they should.
I now just use JRiver as a DLNA server to feed media to hardware like my Oppo bluray, LG OLED, Marantz AV amp etc.
I would love to explore what MadVR can do for me but no longer have the patience to put up with things not working when I need them to.

this surprises me.   i have your same gear.

when i watch or listen in my dedicated home theater room, i use media center.   there is no fuss.  it just works without issue, plays back everything including my huge 3D library and multichannel audio library all through high end equipment and sounds and looks beautiful.    i simply hit “on” on my remote, everything turns on, media center in theater view, and i play what i want to play.

for the rest of the house and remote use outside the house, we are plex for local video since jremote is still borked on ios for video, and apple music for audio streaming from a service, and jremote for streaming local audio.   it all works easily enough for everyone.   and of course the various app for streaming video - netflix, amazon, movies anywhere, yadda yadda yadda.

honestly we would be happy with a working jremote for ios (video), apple tv, iphone, ipad, and if you want to really outdo yourselves - carplay and watch.  yes we are locked into Apple.   would like to be locked into jriver as well.

[Vocalpoint]

• The upscaling for low resolution sources is much better than most other devices - and you have options to tune this to your preferences.
  
• It can apply IVTC to DVD movies and extract a 24p output instead of 60Hz with a 3:2 cadence (which stutters).
• It has advanced image processing features like de-banding which results in smoother gradients, and can minimize blocking in compressed sources.
• Best-in-class HDR to SDR conversion. Many people even prefer this to their display's native HDR support - particularly projector owners.

For me, the biggest difference is with DVD and HD (not FHD/UHD) sources.
DVDs can look dramatically better via madVR than any other renderer/playback device I've used - even very expensive scalers from companies like Lumagen.
With HD/UHD sources the benefits are far less - though the debanding can still make a noticeable difference, as does the HDR conversion if your display doesn't have great HDR support.

Sounds interesting. Care to share any of your DVD settings or setup tips for Mad VR? I have been adding back in some key DVDs to the video collection lately - usually just play them on the Oppo BDP-105 which makes them all look great but I am willing to try this for the HTPC.

My biggest fear is that my HTPC rig is way too underpowered to handle this type of processing (not to mention that I do not use a dedicated graphics card).

And - I am also wondering if this is even worth any effort as my HTPC is not connected to a display at all. It goes HDMI directly to my Marantz AVR and then onto the projector or OLED TV. I would think this layout would potentially take any MC processing completely out of the equation.

Appreciate any info you can share.

Cheers

VP

[RD James]

Sounds interesting. Care to share any of your DVD settings or setup tips for Mad VR? I have been adding back in some key DVDs to the video collection lately - usually just play them on the Oppo BDP-105 which makes them all look great but I am willing to try this for the HTPC.
My biggest fear is that my HTPC rig is way too underpowered to handle this type of processing (not to mention that I do not use a dedicated graphics card).
And - I am also wondering if this is even worth any effort as my HTPC is not connected to a display at all. It goes HDMI directly to my Marantz AVR and then onto the projector or OLED TV. I would think this layout would potentially take any MC processing completely out of the equation.

Appreciate any info you can share.

madVR processing all happens on the GPU, and you need a gaming-class card for the higher-end settings.
The chroma processing might be lost if passing through an AVR, but the other upscaling/processing should not be affected.
 
I find that de-noising/de-banding/artifact removal, upscaling, and then adding grain on top produces an image that subjectively looks much more natural than the original DVD source - though most of my remaining DVDs are not very high quality and are full of ringing/noise/compression.

[tij]

Sounds interesting. Care to share any of your DVD settings or setup tips for Mad VR? I have been adding back in some key DVDs to the video collection lately - usually just play them on the Oppo BDP-105 which makes them all look great but I am willing to try this for the HTPC.

My biggest fear is that my HTPC rig is way too underpowered to handle this type of processing (not to mention that I do not use a dedicated graphics card).

And - I am also wondering if this is even worth any effort as my HTPC is not connected to a display at all. It goes HDMI directly to my Marantz AVR and then onto the projector or OLED TV. I would think this layout would potentially take any MC processing completely out of the equation.

Appreciate any info you can share.

Cheers

VP

it is "misleading" to say MadVR does HDR to SDR conversion and comes from fact that MadVR itself use to label that option as such ... what it does is tone map (latest stable MadVR uses that term now)

All TV/projectors do tone mapping ... but they have benefit of putting HDR logo for brief time on screen while doing so ... this simple trick makes lots of ppl automatically perceive picture as better ... placebo

I guess MadVR could have put some small logo for short time while doing tone mapping ... something like "Ultimate MadVR HDR"... lots of ppl would have automatically perceive that as better than their TV tone mapping ... but MadVR does not do it ... and ppl assume its SDR and hence automatically perceive it as less quality ... funny

MadVR especially shines for HDR tone mapping for projectors ... as projectors have very low light output ... so need lots of compression ... and most projectors (including very expensive ones) do rather lousy job.

As for question ... passing video through receiver affects nothing - receiver dont touch video and just pass it to TV/projector

MadVR will at minimum convert 4:2:0 source to RGB (aka chroma upscaling) ... which by the way is also very high quality upscaling limited only by your GPU power.

From there ... you can set up profiles to tell MadVR when it should scale up video or leave it untouch

Not simple process and requires some time to fully understand the process ... but then when anything in MC was ever easy

[tij]

I wrote a very simple guide some time ago that explains basics of video scaling and HDR... with link to more advance MadVR settings

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,124136.0.html