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[robydago]

anyone know it MC12 can run on XP embedded?

if it can, i think this thin client from HP would be the ideal 0db PC for it!:
http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF25a/12454-12454-321959-338927-89307-1809592.html

[bob]

The geode is not exactly a speed burner but if you are going use it for audio you should be ok. I tested MC12 on a Pentium 233 MMX and it worked fine. Video may work ok but I'm not familiar with the sis video they are using. I wouldn't expect to be able to handle HD  video resolutions.

[johnnyboy]

www.mini-itx.com

U can buy plenty of totally silent PC's there - all specifically designed to be tiny and silent using passive cooling.

The spec on them is not too shoddy as well!

[newsposter]

also have a look at www.mp3car.com for ideas.

Nothing to say that you can't take one of those cool (and quiet and compact) car PCs and use it in the house......

[mhakman]

That’s interesting; I’m looking for quiet PC to play digital music and DVD too (connected to a flat panel TV). I compared 2 pre-built systems from www.mini-itx.com, a Hush B1 Mini ITX PC and a Hush B3 Intel Core Mini ITX System with corresponding systems from Apple, a Mac mini and a MacBook. While Apple systems aren’t fanless, they are very quiet, much quieter than corresponding “normal” PC systems and they run XP and OS/X equally well.

Hush B1 will cost you £599 as compared to £399 for Mac mini. Mac mini gives you 1.66 GHz Intel Core Duo which is much faster than 1.5GHz VIA C7 in Hush B1. Mac gets you operating system too (OS/X) while Hush B1 requires additional £100 for the OS.

Hush B3 will cost you £1030 as compared to £699 for MacBook – the same processor, memory, hard disk, cd/dvd drive etc in both. Hush will require additional £100 for OS. Also, MacBook gives you LCD display, keyboard, mouse, webcam, and remote in one package for the price – it’s a notebook. You would need to purchase, connect and carry all these things separately when buying into Hush.

You could run MC on both under XP and/or Vista. On Mac there is also a chance that MC would work under OS/X using Parallels software. Hmm…

[MrHaugen]

Why so many people need this Mini and Pico PC's I don't get.
In cars and places there are just no room for a big PC case. Ok. But i think there is a few bucks to save on ordinary components. There are also alot of passive super sweet "stereo rack" HTPC cabinets this days. Looks really nice! I would rather build the case into the wall than to go for a super small cabinet on my kitchen table. It will not look good anyway. Except for this baby maby:
http://www.mini-itx.com/2007/02/14/the-flex-42-foldable-mini-itx-htpc

A Mac is nice. But for a Media Center? A laptop? Have you tried that remote with MC? I have not. But I do belive it's an awkward experience. And I've heard it's very easy to upgrade a MacBook 

A monitor/TV with a long cable, remote with radio or WiFi, and just putting the machines in the closet. Now, THAT'S what I like.
Amen. Good night guys!

[mhakman]

By discussing the pros and cons for different solutions we all learn something, so let’s continue.

Why so many people need this Mini and Pico PC's I don't get.
In cars and places there are just no room for a big PC case. Ok. But i think there is a few bucks to save on ordinary components.

Noise level and functionality are important for me as well as the price. Small size may be a bonus but it isn’t that important. I did some calculations on the cost of larger case computer, self-built or pre-built, and when I equip it with all that I need, including keyboard, display, mouse, remote, webcam and make it silent enough then I arrive at a price much higher than those mentioned above.

There are also alot of passive super sweet "stereo rack" HTPC cabinets this days. Looks really nice!

Nicer than a Mac mini or a Macbook with closed lid? Well, aesthetic feeling is a very personal matter, obviously.

I would rather build the case into the wall than to go for a super small cabinet on my kitchen table. It will not look good anyway.

Building the case into the wall or putting it in a closet is not an option for me. First, I will use it as a DVD player so I need simple and quick access to the DVD slot. Second, I need to control it using my programmable universal IR remote so that one remote button turns on and sets correctly up a number of units simultaneously (flat panel, av-receiver, av-switch, right app on pc, other units, inputs, outputs, and other things) for each given task (playing music, watching DVD, watching TV, showing pictures, conducting a video conversation etc). Also when I decide to move my furniture around or perhaps exchange rooms then I don’t want to have to rebuild the whole house. I don’t put things in stone here.

Except for this baby maby:
http://www.mini-itx.com/2007/02/14/the-flex-42-foldable-mini-itx-htpc

That baby, configured in the same way as Mac mini for £399 costs you £1531. Is it worth it? You tell me.

A Mac is nice. But for a Media Center? A laptop? Have you tried that remote with MC? I have not. But I do belive it's an awkward experience. And I've heard it's very easy to upgrade a MacBook

In what respect is a Mac not suitable for a Media Center? In what respect is a laptop not suitable for a Media Center? Both provided that I don’t need TV receiver in the computer – I’m using 2-receiver DVB/PVR box connected directly to my flat panel and my to AV-receiver. What is the difference between a laptop and another computer using the same processor/motherboard? If you don’t put it on your lap then it isn’t laptop anymore, or?

Problem with remote and MC is there because MC Theater View isn’t up to the living room, home theatre task. That has been discussed on other threads here but in summary I don’t want a computer in my living room, I want an appliance for playing music from hard disk (and displaying cover art on flat panel), for playing DVD and CD records, for displaying photos and images, maybe for playing disk-stored videos, and for video conversations. A computer will implement this appliance but it will not be used as a general computer. MC Theater View isn’t designed for this – that is the problem.

A monitor/TV with a long cable, remote with radio or WiFi, and just putting the machines in the closet. Now, THAT'S what I like.

Well, my appliance will be placed on the same shelve as the other equipment and where my flat panel is. Consequently all the cables will be short (meaning cheap and not affecting signal quality). The cables that I will need are: DVI/HDMI cable (to flat panel), S/PDIF/Toslink cable (to AV-receiver), USB/FireWire cable (to a DAC for excellent stereo sound), and USB/FireWire cable (from external tripod-mounted video camera). This appliance will be controlled by IR remote as all other of my appliances do. I’m sitting 4 – 5 meters from all that. That’s what I like.

However, I agree, notebooks and minis are as they are. It is difficult to modify/extend/upgrade what the hardware does due to the lack of free PCI slots. On the other hand, the functionality of many PCI cards is being implemented by external boxes using USB, FireWire or PC-Card or alike connectors. Also, I probably will replace this computer within next 3 – 4 years due to technological advances so I don’t want to overdo (overbuy) it today.

[MrHaugen]

Obviously we have different thoughts on most issues here i see 
I like to be able to upgrade my hardware, as I have about 8 computers, and like to move alot around when I get new parts. I rip all mye DVD's and therefor don't need the drive. Mounting images is far more convenient I think. At least for me. Thats why I want it stowed away in the closet. Makes no noice or heat. At least in the rooms I spend my time.

As to the cabel lenghts. I use HDMI over 10 meters. You get them up to 15 or 20 meters I think. This are a digital transfer medium. That means they transports a number of 1's and 0's. If the cable coud not do that all the time within the supported length, do you think the manufacturers would have made the cables this long if the signals were lost? At least I do not think so.
Anologe signals is another ballgame.

The computer I mentioned above is simply the most beautifull case I have ever seen. That's why I mentioned it. the small computer don't nesessary cost more. But usually you get less computer power from the smallest units. And the price stays about the same, or a little lower. As for the laptops. The reason I hate it as a media center is the preformance. As I also use the media center for gaming.

I do not understand why you want all the periferal units. I use one keyboard and mouse to set the system up. From there I use one remote controller only. I belive girder is the right way to go. And in the future I want to use touch screen in other rooms than the living room.

But as you say, most of this subject is completely based on personal preferences. That's what makes us spesial 
Good luck with your projects.

[mhakman]

Well, I work with software and hardware development so my basement is full of computers and other things (with all that noise, displays, and control LEDs in all colors). This is the reason why I’m not so hot on hardware, performance and other on-the-edge technology in my living room – I have all that in my work. In my living room I want comfort.

Longer cables are more expensive than short. Length of a cable is relevant even for digital signals in cases when digital signal bears timing information (such as S/PDIF). High quality digital-to-analog conversion requires very precise timing (clock signal). As this clock is embedded within digital signal and has to be recovered from the signal at the receiver, any distortion of the pulse form will cause less than optimal timing and therefore will result in less than the best analog signal. Long cables distort the pulses more than short do. The effect is known as jitter. You need very good audio system (studio grade) and very good ears (studio grade too) to hear the effect – the music loses some of its depth, dynamics and warmth, just a little.

Yes, you get more computer power from big computers than from small for the same price if you accept more noise. Otherwise smaller are quieter. I don’t play games; if I did I would get one of those gaming consoles. I don’t se any point of getting more power than I need for the task. Current processors have already much more power than required for playing music and DVD/CD, displaying pictures, video conversation, and some web browsing. High definition video requires more but it is up to graphic chips to solve that, not CPU. By the time there are enough HD titles to rent or buy I will replace this computer with another. I don’t store videos on hard disk because a) it would take more disk space than available/affordable today b) by storing things on DVD I get a physical backup media and c) I don’t buy movies on DVDs, I rent them for an evening or so. Therefore I need quick and easy access to a DVD slot. The device has simply to function as a DVD player with the same easy and comfort (and noise level).

What peripheral units do you mean? Keyboard, mouse (or touchpad) and a small display will be used exactly as you describe it – when doing setup and for special purposes. Otherwise the notebook will have the lid closed. I can imagine putting it on a high small table (perhaps a small bar) so that I can go to it and do something that is needed standing up (or why not sitting on a bar chair). What more peripherals did I mention? DAC unit is needed because it gives much better stereo quality than that of AV-receiver (even good ones). I have measured and compared such small external USB/FireWire connected DACs (mobile studio market) to top-notch AV-receivers.  The former are better. AV-receiver is needed because it is the only cost-efficient way to decode 5.1 AC3/DTS I found. Then we have a video camera – 90% of all private calls I make are video calls so I need a camera. Lifting up living video of your friend or family from small computer display to the big screen, you sitting on a couch at 4 meters distance give another dimension and presence feeling to the whole thing. So you need a tripod mounted camera. The future is here and now.

Cheers!

[MrHaugen]

Yes. I can se we have quite a different view on several things.
I need all the power I can get. Doing alot of heavy post processing og divx and dvd's. Makes a world of difference. That's why I want the room for possible upgrades too. You obviously have alot more knowledge in the sound part than me, so I belive you when you say the length of the cables matter

Have a nice weekend!

[mhakman]

That’s interesting.  I assume that by DVD post processing you mean up scaling to 1080p. I didn’t do any real comparison yet but I have a feeling that up scaling in a computer will result in better picture than up scaling done in the flat panel TV (or projector) itself due to more processing resources available in a computer. Could you verify my feeling? Would you say that 2 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo is appropriate for real-time up scaling?

The length of digital audio cable does matter but the effect is very, very small especially when using good signal buffering and clock averaging DACs. The effect is more pronounced for analog signal/cables but even there using low impedance output to drive the cable minimizes the effect. Pre-out analog connectors on most consumer devices could been better having lower impedance than they most often do. Coax is best for both digital and analog.

[MrHaugen]

That’s interesting.  I assume that by DVD post processing you mean up scaling to 1080p. I didn’t do any real comparison yet but I have a feeling that up scaling in a computer will result in better picture than up scaling done in the flat panel TV (or projector) itself due to more processing resources available in a computer. Could you verify my feeling? Would you say that 2 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo is appropriate for real-time up scaling?

I just got a Panasonic PTAe700 projector with handels 720p. But I'll blow the picture as high as I can. What I do is to upscale the picture at the highest possible resolution, deinterlace if needed, blurr and reduce noise, sharpen the image, before it all goes out to my projector. It downscales it self to the native resolution of the projector. The result as great. The harder you run the upscaling and settings the better it gets.
Now I only got a Athlon 3200+ @ 2GHz. It get's in trouble when I scale it up to 1600 x 1200 and with high quality setting. That's why I want to upgrade.  I'll upgrade to a 6420 Core 2 Duo and hopefully be able to overclock this baby to 3.7 GHz. It's much, but I know it can be done with the components I'm getting. With that I think I'll be able to push it up to 2048 x 1440 or something, with the highest possible picture quality. Really looking forward to it  You can do most of the post processing on only half of the screen. First then you realise how much of a difference it does. Upscaling with a flat panel TV, PS3 or whatever can never beat this I think.

I don't think your Core 2 duo, as it is, can upscale to 1080p, but I think the result would get much better no mather what.
An example is that you upscale to 1600 x 1200 of divx or DVD, enable the the blurr and noise reduction, sharpen the image. Then the TV upscale to 1080p. I think it would look much better. But I have not tried it.

As for the cables, I also have a fried that says coax is the best, but is it really any difference? I have a hard time understanding that when it's all supposed to be 1 and 0 signals.... With optical you would even separate the components electrical. That have to be an advantage right?

[mhakman]

Improving video quality is interesting indeed. What software tools do you use in the process?

Regarding difference between coax and plain audio cable for analog signal I have uploaded a frequency response diagram for both that I measured myself. You may want to check it at http://www.dkab.net/Cables.jpg

Sensitivity of sound quality to cables and their lengths for digital signal builds upon the fact that S/PDIF (both coax and optical) is one way only. The receiver, e.g. DAC has no way to stop the sender and then request more data as is done in USB, FireWire, Ethernet etc. There is no handshaking in S/PDIF. Therefore the actual data rate (time differences between successive values) has to be extracted from the signal itself and followed by DAC. Otherwise the buffer that DAC uses would sooner or later overflow or underflow because no 2 clocks in the world tic with the exactly the same rate. Simplifying a little, to extract clock tics a DAC decides upon a certain signal level (0 V or so) and when the signal rises above that level it says “aha, here is start of a pulse”; when the signal level drops below that level, the DAC says “aha, here is the end of a pulse” Time difference between the 2 events gives actual clock tic. In theory, digital pulses are rectangular and therefore should give precise start and stop times. However, rectangular pulses require infinite bandwidth and infinitely fast electronics. In reality the pulses are more like trapezoids with exponentially rounded rise and fall edges. The pulse form is further disturbed by the cable – longer cable more distortion. In addition, distortion of digital pulse form depends also on signal immediately before current pulse – electrically the cable is RCL circuit, it integrates the signal to a certain degree and therefore it has a “memory”. Therefore, the distortion, which is worse in longer cables, depends on the content of the signal, e.g. content of the music. Due to this variable distortion, the raising and falling edges of a pulse will cross reference voltage level at slightly different times from what pure rectangular pluses would do. Consequently, to the DAC, the clock will appear to tic non-uniformly and therefore the produced analog signal will be somewhat different from theoretically best. Ones will be still ones, zeros will be still zeros, but the time between them will be uncertain and will vary. For good cables this effect is very small, it is measurable but you cannot see it on a simple frequency response – it’s more delicate than that.

“The technique is necessary as it moves the air under the wings that make music fly” – Isaac Stern
   

[MrHaugen]

Improving video quality is interesting indeed. What software tools do you use in the process?

It sure is. I have used Zoom Player and ffdshow up til now. ZP is extremly feature rich, but as Media Center now can integrate ffdshow I will try to use it there, so I can finally access all my media from one single application.
I'm not an expert on this, but I think FFDShow works like a decoder, with additional tools like post processing and deinterlacing, where you can configure video and audio seperat from all media applications.  Every media players supporting DirectShow will be able to use ffdshow I think.
I use ffdshow, dscaler (for dvd decoding), AC3 (for audio decoding), xvid (for divx and xvid decoding) and CCCP (codec pack for the rest of the normal video files). With those applications and decoders you would be able to get som great results.
Mastiff have written an exelent HTPC guide http://www.hardware.no/search.php?stringQuery=mastiff
But you might have a problem if you don't know Norwegian. Still you would be able to get most of the setting by looking at the pictures in part 7 (del 7), page 7-8.

If there is anything you wonder about, just pm me or post in the forums. I'm sure you'll get alot of help. Especialy from Mastiff if he is around..

Regarding difference between coax and plain audio cable for analog signal I have uploaded a frequency response diagram for both that I measured myself. You may want to check it at http://www.dkab.net/Cables.jpg

By looking at that I'd definetly not use long plain audio cables any more. Not that I have ever needed it though. Never thought it could do that much of a difference. At least it looks like it does on that chart.

Thanks for explaining why the cable length have something to say for digital cables as well. Never really tought that much about it.
When you say it, it does ring some bells. It should have been ringing alot sooner with 5 year of electronic education
Better later than never I guess.

[mhakman]

MrHaugen, many thanks for the information. Open Source is my melody, I think I still have an Eclipse workspace with FFMPEG source which I used when experimenting with DVB streams. I’ll certainly come to FFDSHOW when the time is in, right now I have to get right hardware in place. I’m Swedish so I will be able to read Mastiff etc. I would be glad to keep in touch with you.

Analog audio cables aren’t that bad – the Y-axis on the chart is zoomed in, the worst point at 20 kHz is only -1 dB. You’ll hear the difference but it won’t be that bad. Also, using an output with much lower impedance than that of my AV-receiver pre-out will make things much better. It is that impedance together with audio cable’s capacitance that makes up a low pass filter.

Digital audio problems are only there in S/PDIF. If you use USB, FireWire, Ethernet, PCI bus, or any other bidirectional transport then you don’t have these problems at all. The sender (e.g. computer) tells the receiver (e.g. DAC) in advance what sampling frequency to use and then it sends the stream of data in bursts. The receiver fills its buffer and stops the sender by handshaking until it has space in buffer again. The clock tics are never transmitted and the DAC uses its own (good) clock.

Ha det! 

[MrHaugen]

No problem. Read the article sometime then. I think it will give you alot of good ideas.
Thanks again for the thorough cable introduction.

Hej dã