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Author Topic: Managing multiple users utilizing the same collection of media files  (Read 3876 times)

benn600

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There still seems to be some issues with managing multiple users utilizing the same collection of media files.  I am proposing a questionnaire that will hopefully get some ideas stirring about creating a more user friendly multi-user environment.  When you look at your media files, there are some fields and settings that should be left to the user but there are other settings that should be managed only by the administrator.  Options to rip music to the library, for example, should force users to follow the method setup on the server.

I can picture a new option in MC.  When creating a new library database, it could be created as a server database, joined (as a client onto a server database), or simply a standard database as users use now.

If creating a new database, there would ideally be a wizard or completely redesigned set of options geared towards setting up rights for users with passwords.  Ideally, clients could Windows logon & password automatically so if the server has the correct users and passwords setup, then everything would work based on that single logon in Windows.  The server end would be given the option to create users and groups.  Groups could be configured to allow or disallow certain actions.

To make things simpler and likely how most people would want the system to act, the server would have locations for files that the server would manage.  Files would then be transferred through the Media Center connection to the client so a drive would not even have to be shared to access the files--they would be passed through Media Center's connection.  When setting up ripping CDs, for example, certain groups would be able to rip CDs and the ripping settings would be configured on the server end based on the user group.  I personally would set all groups to rip FLAC Q8, etc.  Plus, secure rip would be enabled from the server end on ALL drives.

Fields would be setup on the server along with lots of other settings.  The point would be to allow basically anything over this incredible MC connection.  This connection would provide all that users want to do but with all the settings managed by the server.  Settings could be changed on the client but those would be sent back to the server--and some settings would not be able to be changed.  There could be an administrator user who could change settings.  Thumbnails would be handled by the server.  This way, only one copy of all this stuff needs to be kept and it would be well worth it to keep thumbnails built, etc.

When adding a server library, they would enter the IP or domain of their server plus port number if necessary, just as library server.  It would be MUCH improved, though.  Media Center would then be able to update fields from clients--because everyone would be a client.  MC should also handle ratings and playcounts for every user.  The wizard would provide a good system for setting up the method for achieving this.  My initial instinct is the system I use--it would create a custom field each user's rating & play count.  Ben's Rating and Ben's Play Count.  Then, MC would automatically apply the user's rating to the Rating field but store their rating in their personal field.  It would leave Rating blank at all times.

Updates to the server's database, such as a rating change, must be sent to all clients on the fly to keep everything up to date without requiring restarts.

If this is understandable, from the design perspective, this feature list just scratches the surface.  There are so many more abilities with a complicated server/client system like this.  It really makes managing a huge media library much simpler.  Especially when you consider in-wall units for playing media which would utilize MC, this entire system would be amazing.  Imagine the in-wall units with logon and logout buttons.  Then, the user would select their username, enter a 4-digit PIN, and they would be able to access their playlists, view schemes, ratings, etc.  It would really be amazing to say the least.

I can only imagine the kind of engineering and time this type of system would require but I know I would utilize it to its full potential.  Managing all this stuff can be such a process...and I am looking into wall units sometime in the future.

In closing, remember that this "blessed connection" between server and client would ideally automatically test the connection speed and the server would be configured to encode things on the fly based on criteria.  For example, a 500Kbps connection would warrant 256Kb mp3s whereas a 2,000 Kbps connection would warrant full FLAC quality--assuming the server's upload is great.

Plus, video and photo should have better re-encoding but only based on criteria.  When on the local network, the same speed test would run but would see that there's no speed issues at all, so the criteria would say NO conversion!
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horse

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Re: Any MC changes to help this?
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2007, 12:51:50 am »

There are a few threads like this in the first couple of pages in this forum and it sems more and more people have a server which contains all the media and then various MC clients that they want to access it. The main requirement seems to be just the ability to normally have read only access to the library, yet be able to promote a single client to have Read Write access to make changes.

The catch there as you mention is to then notify the clients there is a change and to re sync. Maybe a simple library "version" number that increments by 1 after various changes are made and the write access to the library is returned to read only. If the clients checked every nn minutes they could then auto sync if there version was lower than the library version.

Having the user preferences also managed from the server would be wonderful and save me having to make sure they all are setup correctly. To keep my server to being just a server I would like to just install the back end stuff and the any server deamons to run uPnP, Tivo etc. But then I don't do any conversion on the fly, so I don't need any of the codec support on the server.

I'm like many other and have all my media shared on a single drive letter which all my MC "clients" use as there default library.
For Example my M: drive is actually a 10GB partition on my main RAID 1 disks that have Win 2K3 and Exchange on them: -

M:\Library
   \Album Art
   \Music        --------> This is an empty folder with another drive mounted in it
   \Video        --------> Anonther empty folder with another physical drive mounted in it
   \Photos      --------> Another empty folder with another physical drive mounted in it
   \DVD          --------> Another empty folder with another physical drive mounted in it

As I need more capacity I just add another drive and create a new empty folder on M: and mount the drive in it. (i.e. \DVD1)
M: is shared and all clients only have read access so nothing can be deleted or modified by mistake.

MC12 is installed on the server and today I maintain my library on the server and it builds the library on M: and all the paths are locally and remotely M: as well so I avoided the SUBST command (but that worked great as well)

All clients can share the view schemes, music, photos, video and the DVD ISO images using Osho's method with VirtualCloneDrive.
Next step is to play with some scripts to have the lock.jmd file be in the library directory by defaults and just before I launch a client that I want to have RW access, I delete the lock.jmd file. Not sure what affect I will have, just need to make sure only 1 person makes this happen to avoid me corrupting the who thing!

One step at a time, first need to bring the new disk controller online so I can add some more disks.
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benn600

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Re: Any MC changes to help this?
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2007, 10:10:53 am »

Yes, I have my entire media collection stored on my RAID 6 server but don't use mapped drives.  It's extra hassle...so I just use the network address.  That means, however, that there is a lot of auto-import scanning for every user.  I want just one computer to do that--and the local server would have an easier time doing so anyway.  I've often thought that, as a simpler fix, each MC database would have the database portion--which stores media, settings, etc..., but then there would be a client edition that would store user specific information.  You would select your user library in a special folder and it would *know* that it needs the media database...it would default to the correct network location or users could enter a location.
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benn600

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Re: Any MC changes to help this?
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2007, 10:53:45 am »

Like I tried to emphasize, this would mean a much improved library server connection (well, many ways to implement it and one would be library server).  The goal is to allow literally everything to be done over library server so users can be local or over the internet.

And the connection testing would allow on-the-fly conversion to automatically be set.

I look forward to the day when DVD folders can be encoded on the fly and sent over the internet so I can watch my entire DVD collection!  If they were encoded down enough, they would send fine!
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raym

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Re: Any MC changes to help this?
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2007, 07:01:17 am »

Quote
As I need more capacity I just add another drive and create a new empty folder on M: and mount the drive in it. (i.e. \DVD1)

How exactly do you do this? The mount bit specifically. Can this only be achieved thru some RAID trickery or is the command simple enough for us mere mortals (err... non-RAID users)?

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benn600

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Re: Any MC changes to help this?
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2007, 07:46:12 am »

No, there is a Windows thingie where you can take a drive letter and create VIRTUAL drive letters under that partition.

So I'm thinking he only took a 10GB partition because he doesn't need anything in the root.

M: 10GB
  Music, 500 GB
  Video, 500 GB
  Pictures, 500 GB

It's a nice way of organizing files but I still don't like it because I would end up filling up one drive and not the others.  Plus, with my 16-drive RAID 6 array, I have 2-drive redundancy (2 can fail).

Addition: there is no denying that it's a good solution for some.  I also got annoyed because asking for free space on the different folders and such, as I recall, was strange and didn't work as I would expect.  I think I was hoping for the sum of all the space at the root or something--can't remember...been a while.

I bet this function is not well known.  It should be bragged about a little more because it allows people who don't want a huge multi terabyte server to still get nice folder structure and have everything under one share for ease of use.
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ThoBar

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Re: Managing multiple users utilizing the same collection of media files
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2007, 09:28:13 am »

Google for "NTFS Junctions" as well as "NTFSLink" (there a better progs than this, but easiest to remember :P). This will provide a good starting point for you. Briefly, the NTFS filesystem provides the following abilites:
  • Mount enitre drives under empty folders (via Disk Management console)
  • Create Symbolic links Junctions to a folder under another, empty folder (multiple locations/names for a folder) (Additional software required - NTFSLink or similar)
  • Create Hardlinks to files (multiple locations/names for a file) (Additional software required - NTFSLink or similar)


I use the first two extensively.

C.
[edited for incorrect terminology]
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benn600

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Re: Managing multiple users utilizing the same collection of media files
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2007, 12:46:58 pm »

Lol.  That's just like Microsoft--they add features in the NTFS filesystem but you can't even utilize them without extra software.  I always wondered if you could make hardlinks so you could effectively have two pointers in different folders pointing to the same file.  That would be very useful in some respects!
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horse

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Re: Managing multiple users utilizing the same collection of media files
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2007, 03:27:09 pm »

Raym,

As confishy and Benn600 mention I just use disk management to mount the physical drive in an empty folder on the small partition M: and yes it is only 10GB because the only real files there are the library and Album Art, all the others are actually on the other drives. If I run out of space on one drive, I get a new one, add it to the RAID controller but as a "single disk" or JBOD and mount it in an empty folder in M: (i.e. DVD2). It can have a drive letter as well but is not required. My reason for going down this path was for ease of adding more drive space and because I didn't want to go fully RAID for all my media (Music, AVI's, DVD iso's and Photo's) as RAID did not solve one problem. I live in California with threat of earthquake (but insert Hurricane, tornado for other areas or Human Error) and if my server get's flatterned or the house goes up in flames I may loose too many disks to rebuild the array. I decided to backup all my media to external drives that live in a heavy duty fire safe.
Only the OS and programs are mirrored to save me rebuilding the server in the event of a drive failure.

The mapping of all the physical drives to a single drive letter was to ease the sharing of a single drive instead of multiple shares. I just map \\Grommit\Media  and it's all there.

Haven't tried the programs mentioned by confishy, look like a nice add on(could not see if supported 2003, only mentions XP). I try and keep my server pretty basic and hence load only what I need. I would like to be ale to load just the server pieces of MC12 so no additional stuff beyong providing MC's upnp and Tivo service is installed. My workstation gets all the stuff loaded!

This method works for me, as does having my music in WAV (Just about everything supports WAV, when FLAC reaches the same level, that is what I almost went too) and that is what I like about MC, there is no one way do anything :-)

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ThoBar

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Re: Managing multiple users utilizing the same collection of media files
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2007, 01:20:38 am »

@horse,

They should work in 2k3 (from memory). As a rule of thumb, if it works in XP, it works in 2k3... unless it's VERY finicky software.

C.
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raym

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Re: Managing multiple users utilizing the same collection of media files
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2007, 01:23:17 am »

horse/confishy: great info, thanks! I've become accustomed to mapping all my server shares on every client but I really like this idea of needing just the single M:\ mapping (or the likes).

Cheers.
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ThoBar

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Re: Managing multiple users utilizing the same collection of media files
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2007, 01:41:34 am »

You're welcome! It DOES make life so much easier! I have 10 drive spaces (RAIDs/Drives/Partitions) mapped under one share. It would be unworkable otherwise!

Also (and this has me near-drooling), Vista is increasing the capabilites of NTFS to include symbolic links across shares... see this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTFS_symbolic_link

For some good (free) software, and good descriptions see ... http://schinagl.priv.at/nt/hardlinkshellext/hardlinkshellext.html

C.
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MajorTomKY

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Re: Managing multiple users utilizing the same collection of media files
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2007, 04:05:39 pm »

Horse,

I tip my hat to you, sir ! Storing the backup drives in a fire proof safe exceeds all levels of data paranoia I've managed so far. I finally have an example to give Mary Kay, when she thinks I've lost it because I always buy double drives each time I get them and backup across the net to different machines on separate lines to reduce the chance of both the drive & backup being destroyed since they would have been on the same machine. Brilliant idea.

I also send external drives to a friend three states away and he does the same so we have our data co-existing as far from each other as possible. 

I don't find assigning drive letters too useful for the data base.  I use shared folders, then if a folder outgrows a drive it can be moved to another larger drive on the same machine and the whole mapping inside the data base remains the same regardless of drive.

I liked reading this thread, some intriguing ideas to consider as my network grows all out of proportion ;-)
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horse

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Re: Managing multiple users utilizing the same collection of media files
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2007, 11:06:24 pm »

Confishy - Thanks for the heads up on the NTFS features, it is one thing I really miss about Unix/Solaris/Linux and hoped that they would provide this kind of function under SFU (Services for Unix) but alas no. I'll give the utilitie a try on a test machine. Still have some catching up with you :-) I only have 7 internal drives. Controllers handle 14 but the case only handles 12. . . . wife (CFO). . . . . another story!

MajorTomKY - Actually it's not so much paranoia as I've ripped my CD library twice and have all the CD's in a storage box. I Just can't face doing it again. The family photo's yes, those I need backups and I like your idea of a "Backup swap".  Maybe I should start mirroring to my parents machine.

Quote
I don't find assigning drive letters too useful for the data base.  I use shared folders, then if a folder outgrows a drive it can be moved to another larger drive on the same machine and the whole mapping inside the data base remains the same regardless of drive.
Did not follow this. Basically the mappings never change. If I out grow a disk I install a bigger one and just move all the stuff over and mount it in the folder the smaller drive used. When I look at the media paths for anything in the library they are all on M: . If I add a drive for new media, that is when I add another "empty" folder. Although based on confishy's info, I should be able to just add a link. So little time, so many options!

Glad people found Benn600's thread useful and it's good to give something back as I've gained so much knowledge from others in this forum. J River should actually use this as part of the reason for buying MC. It is more than just the software, it is the service and the community here that makes it such a great experience! Others charge a fortune for this kind of customer support :-)
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raym

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Re: Managing multiple users utilizing the same collection of media files
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2007, 01:49:24 am »

Quote
Mount enitre drives under empty folders (via Disk Management console)

I'm still struggling with this. I can work out how to add junctions via the command line but from what you guys are saying, it should be possible via the management console, but how? I've checked out the 3rd party software referenced in this thread and it all looks easy enough. I'm just curious to know if there's an native OS GUI equivalant.

Running XP Pro.

Thanks again.
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ThoBar

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Re: Managing multiple users utilizing the same collection of media files
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2007, 04:16:42 am »

@raym
Only drives (partitions) can be mounted via the DMC. You must do Junctions via a 3rd party tool (or a resource kit tool). There is no native GUI for Junctions. (I dont think MS was willing to make the jump to officially supporting it at that point)

In case you haven't already found it, to mount partitions under the DMC...
  • right click on an existing partition
  • select "Change drive letter and paths"
  • "Add"
  • "Mount in the following empty NTFS folder"
  • Choose your folder, "OK" your way out, thats it.


Is this what you're after?
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horse

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Re: Managing multiple users utilizing the same collection of media files
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2007, 04:39:08 pm »

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/307889
Provides the same info as confishy in a more verbose manor :-)
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horse

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Re: Managing multiple users utilizing the same collection of media files
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2007, 05:21:19 pm »

confishy -
Nice tool. Loaded up Hardlinks and it might have been easier to use this than mounting entire drives.
Seems to work just fine with 2k3 server. Will move it from the test machine to the main one and enjoy the new found options! Thanks

Media and OS support in one place . . . .  . priceless
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raym

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Re: Managing multiple users utilizing the same collection of media files
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2007, 06:11:04 pm »

Is this what you're after?

Yep that's it!

Thanks again.
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raym

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Re: Managing multiple users utilizing the same collection of media files
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2007, 01:18:42 am »

For some good (free) software, and good descriptions see ... http://schinagl.priv.at/nt/hardlinkshellext/hardlinkshellext.html

I installed this tool onto my server (win xp pro) but the context menu options are not appearing. Any idea why? I'm logged on as admin via remote desktop. Fislesystem is definately NTFS.

Thanks.


* EDIT * Ok, tried the x86 version at that seems to be fine now... strange why the straight XP/Vista 32 version didn't work though.
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