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[EpF]

I like the new tree Group function, though I know it has some wrinkles still. But I noticed I was having some trouble reading the tree because I find it visually a bit chaotic when one group is expanded, something else below is expanded and yet something else is selected. Anyone else agree?

I think that one thing that could help would be an extra line of 'whitespace' at the end of expanded tree-sections, to isolate them a bit from the entry below. Going a bit further, some background difference between the media groups and the rest of the tree would help a lot, as would tree-section header-backgrounds. (link to mockups of these suggestions)

I'd also love to see the icons back for tree items: since using MC12 I've realised that, in v11, I used the icons way more than text to navigate the tree.

Another aspect of the tree that I can't get my head around is the placement of Playing Now - it just feels wrong languishing anonymously half-way down the tree. I think it deserves pride of place and should be visually celebrated, seeing as ultimately that's what the program is for! In my library I have an 'All Media' scheme, and because of the new grouping, it comes at the top of my tree - and I hardly ever use it!

[EpF]

I realise that this thread didn't get much attention, but I still stand by what I said above (more so now, with the benefit of much use of the program). One thing I left out is the awkwardness of the contra-conventional placement of the expansion arrows on the right for root objects in the tree.

In support of my position on the expansion arrows, here is an excerpt from www.useit.com, from an article called "Top Ten Mistakes in Web Design":

8. Violating Design Conventions
Consistency is one of the most powerful usability principles: when things always behave the same, users don't have to worry about what will happen. Instead, they know what will happen based on earlier experience. Every time you release an apple over Sir Isaac Newton, it will drop on his head. That's good.

The more users' expectations prove right, the more they will feel in control of the system and the more they will like it. And the more the system breaks users' expectations, the more they will feel insecure. Oops, maybe if I let go of this apple, it will turn into a tomato and jump a mile into the sky.

Jakob's Law of the Web User Experience states that "users spend most of their time on other websites."

This means that they form their expectations for your site based on what's commonly done on most other sites. If you deviate, your site will be harder to use and users will leave.

I reckon you could also say "users spend most of their time using other software.", and that, although MC's deviation from conventions will not cause anybody to stop using it (it's just too good  ), it does make it harder to use.

[StFeder]

I absolutly agree with every single point you mentioned!

Especially this one:

[...]One thing I left out is the awkwardness of the contra-conventional placement of the expansion arrows on the right for root objects in the tree. [...]

I, for myselfe, disliked the right placed arrows from the first time I started MC12. It looks fine, but you always have to expand the root on the right and move to the left side to expand all the childs.

Thanks for bringing this topic up again! I think I missed it in the summertime Maybe it's because I wasn't in the beta team 

[johnnyboy]

I agree with most those points too.

The missing tree icons makes the tree considerably slower and less attractive for me to navigate. To me it doesn't look anywhere near as attractive or easy to use as the tree in MC11.

Also, the positioning of 'playing now' just blends in with my view schemes and other things and makes it extremely hard to find - especially when I am letting friends use it and they're new to it.

Without the icons and with its current layout, Playing now seems no more important than any of my VS's and the same with my Playlists or even the feature to browse my computer. They're both much more important than a single VS yet they dont appear so at all.

I liked your 4th mock up although I'd prefer it like this:

and think it'd be a much clearer layout.

If on the other hand you guys dont want to change it at all, if you made all the sections dragable so we could order the root playlist by dragging and dropping items into the order we wanted, that would at least let us prioritise it ourselves alot more manually?

[dcwebman]

Regarding the Playing Now location moving all over when items like Audio are expanded and making it difficult to find, this was brought up many times during the beta test and the final answer was to put Playing Now on your toolbar. If you're not sure how, right-click on the top or bottom toolbar and select Customize Toolbar. I have made Playing Now the first item on both my top and bottom toolbars.

[BartMan01]

the final answer was to put Playing Now on your toolbar.

If the 'answer' to this is to add it to a toolbar, then why not have it there by default? 

I also don't like the new tree.
You can't control the order of the items outside their predetermined sections.
The flow is chaotic (sometimes you expand on the right, sometimes you expand on the left) and requires unnecessary mouse movement.
From a usability standpoint it is a step down from 11 (for me).

I wasn't part of the closed beta process, but all of the things I don't like about 12 (vs. 11) seem to have the same answer:  It was brought up during the Beta, but the developers basically said 'deal with it, this is how we want it'.  JRiver is generally responsive to customer feedback, but the new tree and the 'unified view' for the video seem to be areas they are not willing to budge at this point.  There is nothing I can do about the tree, but my fix for the video is to just launch them all in to external programs.

[Jonahsdad]

I agree that the tree could be much better.  I agree with all the points previously mentioned, particularly putting Playing Now at the top.  It would be nice to see it as a button as well. 

Something I would like to see is Services & Plug-ins removed and its items placed elsewhere.  Utilities belong in the Tools menu, and the online stores belong with Web Media.

It's ironic how inflexible the tree is given how flexible the list is.

[marko]

Bear in mind that v12 is virtually done and dusted, so I wouldn't expect any changes in the tree structure any time soon.
Still, I cannot see any harm in discussing the issue, and if feelings are strong enough, the area might get some attention during MC12.1/MC13 development.
Back in June 2006, I said much the same thing, and still feel the same today:

The more I use it, the more I dislike these expansion arrows on the right.

Pull the tree out, and the arrows move out too, and after expansion, all 'child expanders' are to the left.

I also do not like the way playing now gets moved down the window. It should always be in the same place. Where? I'm not sure...
Won't it fit on the top line to the left of Audio?

Then lock that top line right up there so that nothing else can replace it.

I really don't like the bolded text either...
compare mc11.1's tree...


with 12-29's...


Initially, I thought the new tabs were a neat trick, but now I see that the playing now node is plagued with the same problem that v11's 'library browser' node had. ie., it keeps jumping around in the tree window while we dig around in various locations.
New additions to the tree root are able to displace audio|image|video from the top row too which just makes it look unbalanced and silly. (please don't solve this by removing the option of adding root viewschemes ) <-- no longer an issue, remember, these quotes have a lot of dust on them

I'll persevere with it. But having just spent a fair bit of time with it, I came to vent my frustrations and found that datdude beat me to it

-marko.

and again:

v12's tree is really beginning to irritate. the more I use it, the more it irritates.

the state of it in some of Alex's recent screenies are painful.

Novelty factor is a wierd thing. When I first launched v12, I thought, OK, looks quite good, nice idea, etc. etc.
Sadly, it's become very old, very quickly for me

Edit:=============
That was a right rubbish post huh?

let's try and be a bit more constructive/positive shall we?

For starters, lose the bold text, and if the two are not related, reduce the spacing between tree nodes.
Put the expanders back on the left where they are supposed to be.
Lock the top three (four if you have Docs) nodes up the top and lock playing now right beneath those. The rest can be our playground.
If you don't want the media modes to auto expand, at least keep the expansion area in sync with the chosen mode when it is open (or close it when the selection changes)

All of that, when I think about it, brings practically full circle back to what we already had in v11.1, which is probably not what you had in mind..

This tree discussion has gotten a tad fragmented already, but somewhere around here there's some talk of using 'real' tabs as opposed to these kid-on things we currently have. Alex came up with some seriously interesting ideas as to how the tabs should be broken down.
the outlook style is an interesting one too, one that I'd take over what we have now, though I've never been a huge fan of "MS outlook style" shortcut bars.

Whatever, please do something with the tree, 'coz it's slaying me atm

-marko.

The removal, rather than updating, of the tree icons is another area that needs to be looked at. Has anyone else noticed that when editing a root view scheme, the "icon" option is there, alive and well, and selectable, and, although you can't see the icon, the choice you make here affects how MC places the view scheme in the tree. Very bizarre!!.

At this time, the tree is definitely an improvement over it's 12.0.29 existence...

At least the the top row is now impregnable.

More tree related stuff:
autohiding/showing the tree

-marko

Edit: EpF, not seen you around here in yonks, where you been? everything good I trust?

[johnnyboy]

Threw together a quick mock up for the tree:

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/2874/mc2vi2.jpg

Do each media type like a tab - that way it's a LOT clearer when we're viewing data that is inside the tab. If the tab was closed (ie Audio group closed) then 'audio' would appear like the other tabs.

As well as that change - also think it'd make ALOT of sense if we could put playlists into the different groups too instead of all being in the root.
Let us still put a group there if we want to just like we can with VS's, but otherwise when I'm sorting my photo albums - they're relative to my photo's, not my music. Visa versa is also obviously true.

As well as that, I've just moved 'Playing Now' to the top above the media types.
It makes ALOT more sense if its static and always visible instead of disappearing up and down all over the place depending on whether a tree is open or not etc.
It's a pretty central / major part of the app and so should always be visible and easily accessible regardless of what else is happening in the program.

Picture 4 in this mockup:
http://www.alluvialplains.com/Images/MC/mc12.tree.jpg
also seems like a really good idea to me as well so that each area (playlists/media/drives & devices/etc) is always visible as well and doesn't run off the page when we start using another section.