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Author Topic: OGG is gold ! How about a new encoder plugin ?  (Read 1611 times)

Poison Dan

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OGG is gold ! How about a new encoder plugin ?
« on: July 12, 2002, 03:57:16 am »

Ogg Vorbis 1.0 is out.

The official page should be updated within a few days.

I just wanted to mention I can't wait until the MJ8 OGG encoder plugin gets updated.

BTW, what -q parameter values correspond to the "low", "normal/low", "normal", ... quality values in the encoder settings ?
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Michel

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RE:OGG is gold ! How about a new encoder plugin ?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2002, 04:21:46 am »


BTW, what -q parameter values correspond to the "low", "normal/low", "normal", ... quality values in the encoder settings ?


I would prefer to be able to put a numeric value instead of "low", "normal/low", "normal".
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Poison Dan

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RE:OGG is gold ! How about a new encoder plugin ?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2002, 07:18:15 am »


I would prefer to be able to put a numeric value instead of "low", "normal/low", "normal".


Yes, I agree. It's a lot more flexible. With the command-line -q switch, you can even use decimal values. For example, I know a lot of people are using -q4.99.

It would be really great if the J River folks could add this to the - currently disabled - "Advanced" button for the Ogg Encoder settings.

J River developers, please ? Could you do this ?
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Nikolay

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RE:OGG is gold ! How about a new encoder plugin ?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2002, 08:40:43 am »

OK, we finished converting our OGG encoder to use oggenc.exe file.

Can somebody help us!!!

I tried to encode using CBR mode but always got VBR, is there a way to force CBR?

Should way just always use VBR and remove CBR???

Nikolay
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Nikolay

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RE:OGG is gold ! How about a new encoder plugin ?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2002, 10:31:37 am »

Here is the verdict:

CBR mode is gone from ogg encoder.

Nikolay
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JGourd

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RE:OGG is gold ! How about a new encoder plugin ?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2002, 10:37:56 am »

Any chance of supporting OGGs built in multi-channel capability?
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Xenno

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RE:OGG is gold ! How about a new encoder plugin ?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2002, 04:11:49 pm »

See message 7 in New OGG Encoder. It will show you the correlation between MJ's settings and the OGG -q factor

Xenno
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peleton

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RE:OGG is gold ! How about a new encoder plugin ?
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2002, 08:54:50 pm »

Nikolay:

Why would you WANT CBR???

It sucks!

Aside from compatability issues for old mp3 players (and of course this arguement only applies to mp3s) I see absolutely no reason to use such a method of encoding.

it sould never have existed in the first place.

peleton.
(technically vorbis has never had a cbr mode, -even though your implimentation of the encoder interface listed one)

p.p.s: I just re-read my post, I am not meaning to be critical, just pointing things out.
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Michel

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RE:OGG is gold ! How about a new encoder plugin ?
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2002, 02:22:48 am »


CBR mode is gone from ogg encoder.


I don't think so.


Why would you WANT CBR??? It sucks!


VBR (or more exactely "quality mode") is the default mode now.

CBR is useful for streaming since VBR mode can jump up to very high bitrate without any control.


For example, I know a lot of people are using -q4.99


Because at q5 oggenc stop to do "join channel stereo".
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peleton

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RE:OGG is gold ! How about a new encoder plugin ?
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2002, 06:42:10 am »


---------------------------------------------------------------------CBR mode is gone from ogg encoder.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think so.

Ah, yes -it never really had it.
What it did have was "managed bitrate options" and a "-b" switch to aim the encoding toward an average bitrate. -This is what you are thinking of. It appears to be the same thing as CBR but it is not.
fyi: The managed bitrate options allow the setting of a maximmum or minimum bitrate. The encoding algorithm doesn't actually have a "CBR mode" but by using these you force the encoding towards a certain target bitrate. These modes are still available (and I don't think they will change this) through the "-m and -M" command line switches.
However use of the managed bitrate engine is not recommended as it bypasses the whole point of Vorbis quality tuning.


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Why would you WANT CBR??? It sucks!
---------------------------------------------------------------------

VBR (or more exactely "quality mode") is the default mode now.

CBR is useful for streaming since VBR mode can jump up to very high bitrate without any control.


Again the whole Vorbis encoding engine is built around the concept of VBR. The introduction of the "quality mode switches" in RC3 (Dec 2001) was a move to try and get people to forget their fixation with bitrates and the notions of "this bitrate equals that quality-of-sound" -the most typical being the commonly held belief that 128kbps mp3 equal CD quality! (I hope no-one here still perscribes to this rubbish).
So the tuned part of the RC3 engine was linked to the "-q" (or "quality mode" as Michel mentioned) option, where previously the "-b" (for bitrate ) was used to explicitly select the target average bitrate (or "nominal" bitrate) the encoder should aim for when encoding.
Yes, even though this opion was -b like that of many mp3 encoders' CBR mode, it was actually producing "VBR" files that had an average bitrate NEAR the given figure.

O.K, after thinking about it there are (very few) cases where the managed bitrate modes would be useful:
Streaming:
    -I agree that bitrates can (and should) jump up in a VBR encoder, however it is exagerating a little to say they do this without any control. -The control is in the quality level setting. This gives a file with an average bitrate "tuned" to that level of quality appropriate for that particular file. -Again the managed bitrate engine also allows more control by setting a maximum bitrate.
    -I can see no reason why VBR wouldn't be suitable for streaming, other than requiring filesize to be small. For this the -M (maximmum bitrate option) would be fine. The encoder then would not waste bits on easy to encode parts (like silence) but would not use more than -M on the hardest to encode parts.

Fixed-size channels:
   -O.K. this is about the only place I can think of that warrants the existance of the -m (minimum bitrate) mode. The -m and -M and -b switches can be used together to restrict the encoding toward a particular bitrate, -but this is really forcing the engine to do something it was (rightly) not made to do.  I personally don't like the idea of minimum and maximum bitrates as they mean either bits are wasted where they shouldn't be, or are not being used where they are needed -or both!


For example, I know a lot of people are using -q4.99

Because at q5 oggenc stop to do "join channel stereo".



Yes, this is true that at -q5 Vorbis kicks in LOSSLESS Channel coupling! Very cool. (however it means a filesize jump from q4.99-q5.00)

Also at -q6 there is NO lowpass filter, so there is asize jump again at q5.99-q6.00.
(although there is not really much of a lowpass filter above q4 anyway)

happy ogging!
peleton.
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JimH

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RE:OGG is gold ! How about a new encoder plugin ?
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2002, 06:54:33 am »

Peleton,
Thanks for the details.  Are you working on the Ogg project?  Why do you know so much about it?

Jim
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Jim Hillegass
JRiver Media Center / Media Jukebox

peleton

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RE:OGG is gold ! How about a new encoder plugin ?
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2002, 09:24:50 am »


Peleton,
Thanks for the details. Are you working on the Ogg project? Why do you know so much about it?
Jim


Ah, Jim no. -You flatter me with even the suggestion though.

My thesis is on Psychoacoustic models, and it is this that lead me to the Ogg Vorbis project.  I have been following the development since about November last year. But alas I am not a contributor to the project (well some suggestions here and there but no actual coding as-yet).

I have GREAT respect for Monty (the lead coder and real brains behind Vorbis), and also Ivan Dimkovic (of Psytel ACC fame) and Andree Buschmann and Frank Klemm of MusePack/MPC fame.

Also after seeing his code I was really impressed by Matt and am a big fan of his efforts with Money's Audio.

I hope that one day I will be able to offer the field something -even a fraction of what these people have done.

cheers
peleton.
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