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Author Topic: Bugzilla?  (Read 7000 times)

vagskal

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Bugzilla?
« on: September 30, 2012, 01:27:03 pm »

Have you considered introducing a Bugzilla or some similar bug tracking system that (at least) the beta team can use? I feel that I am sometimes repeating myself just because I am not sure that JRiver has noticed a bug report and registered it for the future internally (which notion is strengthened by JRiver sometimes asking us to repeat bug reports until the bugs are fixed, which is, in my opinion, asking a bit too much of volunteer beta testers since there are useful software to keep track of bug reports).

You could merciless throw out any concealed enhancement requests or user errors without explanation, or you could leave the maintenance entirely to the beta team.

With a bugzilla with user reports, spring cleaning ("polishing, not chasing squirrels") would be easier.

Thanks (not the least for even having the opportunity to report issues directly to the developers and sometimes have immediate feedback and action).

PS. I feel I must end this with a bug report: To last.fm files played in MC are still reported as being scrobbled by JRiver Media Center, i.e. the old name.
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Lasse_Lus

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2012, 03:22:23 pm »

nice suggestion vägskäl  :)
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cncb

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2012, 05:40:24 pm »

I agree completely.  It often seems a waste of time doing extended testing and typing up a detailed bug report for it to just be lost in the shuffle even after you have reported it several times.
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JimH

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2012, 06:06:23 pm »

I agree completely.  It often seems a waste of time doing extended testing and typing up a detailed bug report for it to just be lost in the shuffle even after you have reported it several times.
We really appreciate your reports.  I know it seems a little messy sometimes.  On our side, a single problem, reported by one user doesn't always get an immediate response.  We look for multiple users reporting the same problem.  We also pay special attention to "big" problems.

I can imagine that this may be frustrating from your point of view, but there is always a constant level of background noise that is related to user errors, bad hardware or drivers, bugs in other software, etc.  The "Weird Problems" thread is a long list of these kinds of problems.

Then there are reliable reports from knowledgable users, and there are others.

And there are picky reports from fastidious users.  Some are important.  Some are not.

A well organized database like Bugzilla masks a lot of this, in my opinion.  And it feels like a to do list, which we already have.  We've worked with these kinds of databases when we've done work for corporate customers.  They (the databases) aren't nice.

Another factor is who we're working for.  Some users can be very verbose, pointing out flaws in a troubled voice.  Others provide crisp reports that make it easy to find and fix the problem.  The latter kind jump to the head of the queue.  This is especially true when it's someone who has given their time generously to other users who needed help.

Just to be clear, none of this applies to you, Craig.  I'm just trying to explain why we like our current system.
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cncb

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2012, 06:55:32 pm »

Ok, Jim.  Thanks for the explanation.
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jmone

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2012, 10:09:24 pm »

I recon there is a whiteboard at JR HQ that has a list of bugs listed on one side and new features on the other.  If so a web cam feed could be interesting!
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vagskal

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2012, 05:56:32 am »

Although it would be nice to be able to see JRiver's internal to do list that was not what I was talking about. I was referring to providing some kind of Bugzilla for the beta team so that the beta team could keep track of its bug reports (that could be consulted by the developers if and when they felt it appropriate, like when spring cleaning). As regards developer interaction and their priorities it would be exactly the same as it is now when we report in various build threads (but having the developer close a bug report when he considers the bug fixed would be nice). The difference would be that the reports were kept for posterity in a structured manner for easy retrieval and did not have to be repeated. A Bugzilla could also provide an easy way for beta team users to tell if they too see a reported issue (which I seldom do if I do not have additional information, since I thought it would be enough that the issue is reported by someone once with all info).

I notice that Jim's replay did not contain any assurance that JRiver actually keeps an internal list of what the developers consider to be valid bug reports from users (possibly excluding "picky reports from fastidious users" deemed unimportant).

I just wanted to make clear what I meant. Thanks.
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JimH

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2012, 06:16:40 am »

I recon there is a whiteboard at JR HQ that has a list of bugs listed on one side and new features on the other.  If so a web cam feed could be interesting!
What is a whiteboard?
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MrC

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2012, 01:21:48 pm »

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JimH

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2012, 01:40:32 pm »

 ;D
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Matt

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2012, 05:45:28 pm »

I like it when users keep their own list and occasionally post the open items.

I believe this is called the Organized Chaos development model.

Jim described it here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=63978.msg427806#msg427806
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gvanbrunt

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2012, 06:28:15 pm »

You guys could invent a whole new development methodology. Forget Agile, how about Revolving Developmenttm.

All you need to do is get a a big wheel like one of those they have at the carnival. Insert to do list on each spoke and give er a spin each time you need a new task.

I wish we had that back when I used to program. Day would have been much more interesting.
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jmone

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2012, 07:56:21 pm »

What is a whiteboard?

I'm in the US for a few days so I must learn som more American!  A whiteboard is a blackboard but instead of chalk you use markers.  What do you call them?
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kensn

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2012, 08:25:20 pm »

That would be a Whiteboard... totally different...  :P

Ken
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gvanbrunt

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2012, 08:49:37 pm »

I'm in the US for a few days so I must learn som more American!  A whiteboard is a blackboard but instead of chalk use use markers.  What do you call them?

Depends on if you mean U.S. of A American or as in North American. Cause then you have to take into account Newfies. They have their own terms for everything and make Aussies look almost sane by comparison. I don't know off hand their term but I'll bet it is something like "cliggers" or "screwchins". I can ask my folks if you really want, but I'm kind of scared to.
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JimH

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2012, 09:10:28 pm »

I'm in the US for a few days ...
We're not open this week.
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JimH

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2012, 09:13:29 pm »

You guys could invent a whole new development methodology. Forget Agile, how about Revolving Developmenttm.

All you need to do is get a a big wheel like one of those they have at the carnival. Insert to do list on each spoke and give er a spin each time you need a new task.
That's not unlike our current method.  Except the wheel has a young woman strapped to it, and Yaobing throws the knives.
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jmone

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2012, 09:21:24 pm »

Pity, I was going to bring donuts and everything ...
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Matt

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2012, 09:21:31 pm »

A whiteboard is a blackboard but instead of chalk use use markers.  What do you call them?

Those are called "Skribble McScrabbles" here in America.
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JimH

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2012, 06:52:11 am »

What kind of donuts?
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jmone

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2012, 07:11:31 am »

What kind of donuts?

Spoken like a true Yank!

Now to try to find a "good" coffee here in DC ... so far I've been directed to Starbucks.  I've also made the mistake of trying to get a nice Cuppa Tea at breakfast.
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MrC

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2012, 01:39:55 pm »

Now to try to find a "good" coffee here in DC ... so far I've been directed to Starbucks.  I've also made the mistake of trying to get a nice Cuppa Tea at breakfast.

I made a call to my wife on your behalf, who frequents DC on business.  She's a coffee lover, but says coffee is DC should be strictly considered a caffeine-withdrawal avoidance substance, and Starbucks is convenient to said purposes.

n.b. she usually totes her own french press for the longer trips.
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MrC

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2012, 01:46:06 pm »

What kind of donuts?

I gave myself a good chuckle thinking about sending you a hundred white cake donuts with cherry icing and rainbow sprinkles.  :-)
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JimH

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2012, 01:55:19 pm »

I would have given you one of My Little Ponies to say thanks.   :-*
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MrC

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2012, 01:59:05 pm »

I would have given you one of My Little Ponies to say thanks.   :-*

I'm am sadly lacking Fluttershy from my collection.
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gvanbrunt

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2012, 04:58:39 pm »

I'm am sadly lacking Fluttershy from my collection.

It pains me grievously to think you even know the names. Even with kids that's pretty shameful. It also scares me worse than knowing the Newfie word for markers...
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jmone

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2012, 05:12:05 pm »

Thank your wife for me MrC.  I've found that if you order a double shot "short" it is OK but a good EBT has still evaded me.  I plan to try two tea bags in a "short" to see if that delivers some flavour.
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vagskal

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2012, 06:46:58 pm »

Hmm. I have no idea where this thread is going. It is obviously not leading to where I hoped (JRiver providing a Bugzilla or something similar to, at least, the beta team).

I am afraid I have nothing funny to say about donuts. I do not even like the hole in the middle. And the tiny horses talk made me speechless. But I liked MrC's whiteboard. A picture can tell more than a thousand words.

I might have to start another thread and see where it leads...
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JimH

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2012, 06:56:08 pm »

http://www.chingchingcha.com/

Georgetown.  Recommended by an anonymous source.
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Matt

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2012, 06:56:12 pm »

I might have to start another thread and see where it leads...

Hopefully to more donuts.
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MrC

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2012, 07:20:19 pm »

I think it was all in good humor once the request was sublimated.

It seems that JimH's post indicates how JRiver is (wisely) resisting becoming a slave to the burdens of the bug system.  In particular, Bugzilla is a mess, geared towards larger teams of developers with longer development cycles.

We used to spend an hour / day doing bug management and triage.  It was a necessary evil for our projects.  Once customers get involved, the burden increases substantially for many reasons (duplicate removal, additional feedback required, terminology mismatches, component assignment, failure to reproduce, feedback loop delays, lack of closure, UBD, etc.).

For small teams, simple methods are much more effective (hence the {white,black}board references).
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JimH

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2012, 07:53:04 pm »

For small teams, simple methods are much more effective (hence the {white,black}board references).
Well said.  We count on you, Mike, and you, Soren, and many others, to be our whiteboard.
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jmone

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Re: Bugzilla?
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2012, 09:27:56 pm »

http://www.chingchingcha.com/

Georgetown.  Recommended by an anonymous source.

Mmmm 1.6 miles away, I was thinking an early morning stroll would be perfect but the heathens don't open till 11am...  So my EBT would need to be an arvo affair (which still works for me!)
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