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[lijil]

I'm posting this as what I hope you will take as constructive criticism. I have been following MJ for a while and these are the main issues that are keeping me from using MJ as my main player. (Which I REALLY want to do!). I understand any changes made might not make it into MJ8, but I would just like to know your opinion on these issues which I feel are important.

 tag writing/reading system needs to be overhauled.
- each format's tag w/r should probably be handled by individual plugins since they all have different capabilities
- the MJMETADATA tag really has to go IMO. The very fact that a tag called MJmetadata (hence the MJ) is being written says that information stored within only applies to the MJ program, and therefore should be stored only by MJ itself internally, in its database, NOT tagged to the file. The fact that there is no way to remove that tag (without removing all tags) just makes it all the more frustrating.
- MJ has to stop adding YEAR and TRACK tags with a value of 0. If it has no value, than just don't add the tag.
- If you edit one particular tag, MJ forces you to write all the other tags for which it has info in its database as well. This shouldn't be the case. Only the individual tags you have edited yourself manualy should be written to the file.
- a system where the user can define common custom tags and have a standard tag eding dialog created automatically would be very nice. A Vorbis frontend program called WinVorbis has this feature, and its source is available if it would help to get this feature implemented at some point. http://winvorbis.stationplaylist.com
- there should be a way to remove/disable all the pseudo tag info that MJ stores internally, and have only that info actually tagged in the file be used.

 ReplayGain.
- This is a standard which all players can use (and I know of at least 3 that do ATM) and shouldn't be stored in the proprietary MJMETADATA tag. It should be added to the file according to the format's spec. That being said, the only formats that have a standard way of tagging RG data (afaik) are Vorbis and MpegPlus. (RG_RADIO, RG_AUDIOPHILE, RG_PEAK tags) MJ should support reading and writing of these standard tags.
- The RG preamp, hard-limiter, and clip-preventer(preamp reduction) features have to be implemented for RG to be usefull. I must commend you however on MJ being able to calculate the average RG value of the last set of files played and to use this for files with no RG info available. I can't find a way to reset this value though, which I think is needed.
- The ability to do RG analysis during playback of files. This has to be done carefully though. MJ has to know to ignore all the DSP settings, silence removal, playback skipping/glitch, crossfading, etc. And if the entire file is not analyzed  all the information must be discarded. The result from this process should be exactly the same as using any other RG analysis tool for that format. (It is a standard after all!) Now one obstacle that arises is that Vorbis files (and MP3's  with id3v2 as well) need to be completely rewritten when the are tagged (afaik). If MJ is performing RG analysis on each file it plays it would then have to rewrite/tag each file as it goes along, and this would take more resources than acceptable. One way I thought of is to have MJ just temporarily store the RG values, and when exiting MJ ask the user if they want to apply those tags to the files.
 The ability to select which plugins are installed, during the install process. For example I NEVER use WMA, nor do I own any portable devices or remotes, yet I have to keep installing/uninstalling these plugins.

 The ability for MJ's volume control to cooperate with the system mixers setting. (esp. for DirectSound output) In this mode, when MJ's volume slider is at 100%, the volume is 100% of the system mixers WAVE slider. This is very important when you have music/MJ playing in the background of say a game and you want to adjust MJ's volume in relation to the game's volume. You could then set MJ's volume slider to 50% and have your music playback at half the volume of your game's sound effects, just right! (Note: this is how the Winamp2 directsound output plugin behaves)

Having said all this, MJ8 is really the best jukebox/allinone player out there, and has the potential to be the best player period. I hope these issues are eventually addressed (or you convince me they are not a good idea) so that I can use MJ all the time, for everything that is audio. Keep up the good work!

Thank you,
Mike

[JimH]

Mike,
I hope you will appreciate that MJ, in its current state, represents a blend of the needs of thousands of people like you, expressed over the last couple of years.  It may not suit your needs perfectly, but I'm sure your dream player would not suit their needs perfectly either.  In the end, we all must compromise.

If you would like to affect our development, it will help if you can keep your comments concise and targeted, as opposed to this kind of statement:

> the MJMETADATA tag really has to go IMO

Jim Hillegass
CEO
JRiver

[lijil]

I did follow that comment with a reason for saying that though. I was trying to be specific in my descriptions moreso than concise. Right now elements of MJ's implementation of Replay Gain are proprietary, when a standard already exists. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a program to not attach proprietary (MJMETADATA) information to every audio file's tag values I modify.

[JimH]

Lots of things are reasonable to expect but will never happen.  

We've made choices all along and haven't had the benefit of your opinion until now.

[lijil]

And thats fine, I can respect that. I'm sure you have reasons for doing things the way you have, and I was just trying to get some information on what those reasons were.

[Charlemagne 8]

JimH,
Be careful with this one. We need him. Anybody that has opinions on such a deep esoteric level has other insights into other things not yet spoken. And he's easy to get along with. Kind of like the "Unnamed One" without the psycho garbage/baggage.
Now that is just MY opinion.
Hi, Mike.
CVIII

[JimH]

C8,
This is careful.

Mike,
C8 is right about your knowledge.  It's just that we've been doing this a long, long time so I don't appreciate comments that seem like shooting from the hip.  You can have it your way at Burger King.  Here you'll need to adapt.  

If you want something changed, you can ask.  Others will jump in to comment.  Not everyone will agree.

And we'll never have time to explain the reasoning behind what we've done.  Even if we understand it.

[LCtheDJ]

lijil/Mike,
Welcome to Interact.  Although some of your ideas may seem revolutionary to JRiver, I thought they were presented calmly and respectfully enough to deserve consideration.

JimH,
I'd like to add my 2 cents worth to a few of Mike's points.

Replay Gain
Since JRiver did not invent this technology, it seems to me it would be to JRiver's advantage to use it according to the specs described by it.  If you want to win over new users to Media Jukebox, you'll have to make the transition as painless as possible for those that already have a huge library that are NOT using MJ's propietary method of storing info about their files.  If I have to change my entire library's tagging system for a new piece of software, I probably would pass on the new software and stay with what I have.

Install process
I always have used the custom install method, but I really don't know how it is different from the express install.  I too, always get plugins installed for formats and devices (remote control) I don't have.  I'd like to have the choice of not installing them rather than removing them later.  Actually, this is only an annoyance because I'm installing all these beta releases.  When MJ becomes final, I suppose I'd only do the personal preference settings once, and be done with it.

Volume
Is there a reason NOT to tie into the Wave volume control instead of the Master volume control?  Could it have to do with the fact that MJ also plays other formats, such as midi, that would not normally go through the wave channel?

Jim, I hope you don't see these comments/requests/recommendations as attacks on your baby; we love it too.  We'd just like to see it grow up to be the best that it can be.

-LCtheDJ/Larry

[Matt]

- each format's tag w/r should probably be handled by individual plugins since they all have different capabilities

It is.

- the MJMETADATA tag really has to go IMO. The very fact that a tag called MJmetadata (hence the MJ) is being written says that information stored within only applies to the MJ program, and therefore should be stored only by MJ itself internally, in its database, NOT tagged to the file. The fact that there is no way to remove that tag (without removing all tags) just makes it all the more frustrating.

I could give a big spiel, but just let me say that MJMETADATA solves a lot of problems for a lot of people.  Optional disabling may be nice, but there's really nothing to be afraid of.

- If you edit one particular tag, MJ forces you to write all the other tags for which it has info in its database as well. This shouldn't be the case. Only the individual tags you have edited yourself manualy should be written to the file.

That's not true.  The tagging studio is actually very smart about what it updates.

- a system where the user can define common custom tags and have a standard tag eding dialog created automatically would be very nice.

We have to consider a lot of formats.  It makes life less simple.

- This is a standard which all players can use (and I know of at least 3 that do ATM) and shouldn't be stored in the proprietary MJMETADATA tag. It should be added to the file according to the format's spec. That being said, the only formats that have a standard way of tagging RG data (afaik) are Vorbis and MpegPlus. (RG_RADIO, RG_AUDIOPHILE, RG_PEAK tags) MJ should support reading and writing of these standard tags.

It probably will in the future.  We're the first (and only major) player to natively support Replay Gain.  Standards are still fuzzy...

- The RG preamp, hard-limiter, and clip-preventer(preamp reduction) features have to be implemented for RG to be usefull. I must commend you however on MJ being able to calculate the average RG value of the last set of files played and to use this for files with no RG info available. I can't find a way to reset this value though, which I think is needed.

RG preamp and hard-limiter exist.  Clip-preventer is of little real world value.

- The ability to do RG analysis during playback of files. This has to be done carefully though. MJ has to know to ignore all the DSP settings, silence removal, playback skipping/glitch, crossfading, etc. And if the entire file is not analyzed all the information must be discarded. The result from this process should be exactly the same as using any other RG analysis tool for that format. (It is a standard after all!) Now one obstacle that arises is that Vorbis files (and MP3's with id3v2 as well) need to be completely rewritten when the are tagged (afaik). If MJ is performing RG analysis on each file it plays it would then have to rewrite/tag each file as it goes along, and this would take more resources than acceptable. One way I thought of is to have MJ just temporarily store the RG values, and when exiting MJ ask the user if they want to apply those tags to the files.

You answered this yourself.  It's too much complexity for something we're not sure many people will care about.

-The ability to select which plugins are installed, during the install process. For example I NEVER use WMA, nor do I own any portable devices or remotes, yet I have to keep installing/uninstalling these plugins.

That accounts for very little of footprint.  I wouldn't worry about it.

-The ability for MJ's volume control to cooperate with the system mixers setting. (esp. for DirectSound output) In this mode, when MJ's volume slider is at 100%, the volume is 100% of the system mixers WAVE slider. This is very important when you have music/MJ playing in the background of say a game and you want to adjust MJ's volume in relation to the game's volume. You could then set MJ's volume slider to 50% and have your music playback at half the volume of your game's sound effects, just right! (Note: this is how the Winamp2 directsound output plugin behaves)

Yes, it should be optional.  LCtheDJ explained why it's not so simple though.

Thanks for the posts and take care.

-Matt

[Doof]

Matt> Is there some way of giving MJ it's own volume control that's not Wave or Master? I thought I'd seen this somewhere else, but I'm not sure. I've often thought it would be nice to be able to change the volume of MJ independently of everything else. I'm just curious. If it's possible it's something I'd add to the Wish List.

[lijil]

>That's not true. The tagging studio is actually very smart about what it updates.

Ok I just tried this to make sure. Here is what I did:
1. Took an OGG file (testfile.ogg) with no tags whatsoever
2. imported it into MJ (it shows up under media_library\unassigned)
3. right clicked the file in the right pane, and selected properties
4. entered 'test' in the artist field, and clicked Save
5. viewed the file's tags with another utility (not MJ) and the following tags were written:
  - title=testfile
  - artist=test
  - mjmetadata="..."
Even if you edit and remove the name/title value it will still write that tag. And the MJMETADATA tag is being written even though it only contains an empty rating (0 actually) and empty MJ replay gain info. I do notice that even though the year and track fields display a value of 0 rather than being blank, MJ does not write these tags. That's a little quirky but not a problem for me.


>RG preamp and hard-limiter exist. Clip-preventer is of little real world value.

Ok in my original post I was just stating the three elements that are part of the RG spec, yes MJ does have the RG preamp (Manual Adjustment correct?). I can't seem to find the hard-limiter, where is that at? The RG clip preventer is supposed to dynamically reduce the RG preamp to prevent clipping, an alternative to the hardlimiter/compressor if you really don't want to compress your audio which many people dislike. (I think the Overflow Handling option is some sort of non RG specific preamp reducer, or am I wrong on that?) The forums at hydrogenaudio.org have quite a few threads about replay gain implementations, and David Robinson who wrote the spec participates in most of them. That's where the RG_... tags 'standard' for OGG came about anyway.


Thanks a lot for the replies.
Mike