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[Jong]

Testing with .108. Using i5-3550K and AMD7750 (Cat 12.10).

FFW/REW works fine for .mkv but when playing DVD it plays at standard speed, but only displaying occasional frames, so you see a stop/start freeze frame version of the video but running at the regular movie speed.

Is this reproduceable by others? Any other info I can provide?

[Jong]

Fast forward and rewind work OK with bluray. It appears the problem is specific to DVD.

[Jong]

So is it that no one else sees this problem or no one cares?! Either would be surprising!

I should add that FFW/REW works fine with RO standard.

[raym]

I don't really have anything useful to say .... I have the opposite problem. It's fine for DVD but I occasionally have this issue with blu ff/rew.

[Jong]

Thanks for feeding back anyway.  Sounds like there are some issues here.

[Jong]

(Edit: this thread updated with latest info from another)

 I have also noticed that for DVD MadVR reports a time between repeated frames  of 12-25 mins, whereas for bluray, 720p h.264 mkv, and even a repackaged .mpg file from a DVD source, the time between repeated/dropped frames is in the many hours to several days, which is to be expected using Videoclock. It seems to me there may be something messed up with the timecodes specifically when playing DVD.

Further evidence in support of this. I have copied one of the VOBs from a DVD to a different location and used "play media file". The time between repeated frames was immediately shown in the many hours and fast forward worked perfectly. However when this same VOB is played from within its Video_ts folder - I.e. as a DVD - it does not fast forward or rewind correctly and time between repeated frames is shown ~13 minutes.

[raym]

Ok, I see the prob now. At 5x, playback just continues at normal speed but with no sound. Def an issue here.

[Jong]

..and if you go faster still you get still normal speed but with an interesting "random, freeze frame effect"!

[Hendrik]

First of all, the DVD Navigator works quite a bit differently compared to how any other source filters work, and because of this playback speed adjustments are also different.
Secondly, if by "Rewind" you actually mean playing back backwards, that will never work, and you should forget about it (it also doesn't work with any "normal" file). If you don't mean this, then use a better term.

Fast Forward is also a problem, depending on how its handled.
2x is usually not a big issue, but at 4x or even higher, you get into trouble, because there is more frames to be decoded then the decoder and/or renderer is designed to process, so something has to start dropping them.
That said, LAV Video does not support changing DVD playback speed in 0.55, but it will in future versions.

I'm not sure i ever saw audio continue on a DVD in fast forward.

PS:
Personally, i think changing playback speed is a nonsense feature, if you want to go forward, seek forward, don't watch through faster images. :p

[Jong]

Hi nev,

First, thanks very much for joining in and thanks x1000 for everything you have done with LAV. It has made a huge difference to all the "open" players and, with ROHQ, to MC.  

Indeed I am talking about playing forwards and backwards at high speed, as these terms would normally be used. MC supports this at x5, x20, x100 speeds (if the appropriate button is pressed more than once). At higher speeds it just displays individual frames at appropriate intervals, so it is not displaying every frame at a higher speed, but from a user perspective I still thinks this counts as FFW and REW.

I am somewhat confused by your comments because both FFW and REW (as described above) work fine using ROHQ if a VOB is played directly. Also, FFW and REW work just fine in "DVD mode" if Red October Standard is used. So, although I fully understand if this is something you do not support yet, it really does not appear there is any fundamental problem in either VOB playback or even DVD Navigator that should stop this working in the future.

What do you think?

Ps. I do understand that jumping forward and back is an alternative and used that for a long time with MPC-HC. However, with all other media the more traditional FFW and REW works fine in MC and it is clear it can work with DVD too. It would be great if it could be supported when using ROHQ.

Ps2. I am also interested in why madVR reports a much higher level of expected frame "drops" when playing a VOB in "DVD mode" than when played directly. I suspect these two things may, just may be related.

[Hendrik]

Re REW: You can't play files backwards. You can try to simulate this by seeking backwards a few seconds and showing an image, but thats going to get really messy real soon.

And like i said, i have no use at all for these features, so i'll leave you to figure out your problems again.

Just keep in mind that the DVD Navigator is a *very* special thing, and behaves completely orthogonal to any other kind of playback.

[Jong]

I am sure you are technically correct about REW, but all I can tell you is both ffw and rew appear identical to the user in MC. And it works perfectly even @x100, even using LAV Splitter and decoder and MadVR, if the VOB is played directly.

(You may want to re-read my previous post as I think I was editing it while you were posting to me, sorry)

[Jong]

And like i said, i have no use at all for these features, so i'll leave you to figure out your problems again.

not quite sure what I did to deserve that. But anyway. From this discussion, I am guessing that MC IS in fact seeking forward and back, just fast and repeatedly. It sounds like this should work, does work for VOBs using LAV, and using DVD Navigator without LAV (or MadVR). As I said in the LAV thread, I know there is some overlap with the MC player itself and MadVR. The problem here may not even have anything to do with LAV, but still it would be great if you could help us get to the bottom of it, please. At the moment a basic, standard feature of MC is simply broken when using ROHQ, when playing DVDs.

[Hendrik]

I already gave you all the answers you need

- DVD Navigator is special, do not compare to file playback (ever!)
- LAV does not support rate adjustments with DVD in 0.55
- Audio always goes away on DVDs at any other speed then 1x
- Reverse playback is not possible, and all you hope for is cheating by backwards jumping (the DVD navigator does that internally if you ask it to play at a negative rate)*

And one new piece of info:
After adding support to LAV, fast forward works fine, rewind seems to do something but is ugly as hell (as expected really)

* DVDs can in theory support smooth reverse playback, but thats a terrible thing to implement, and besides the Microsoft decoder, i don't think anyone supports it. (but it remains plain impossible for file playback)

[Jong]

You seem to be making this more combative than I meant it to be but in (amicable) riposte

1. Yes, I realise DVD Navigator is different, that is why I have made the point that FFW and REW (as MC, not me, and many other consumer devices define them   ) work WITH DVD Navigator when using RO Standard. I'm merely illustrating that LAV and MadVR DO FFW and REW when not using DVD Navigator and FFW and REW work WITH DVD Navigator if not using LAV and MadVR. I'm not saying this stuff should "just work" without effort but I am saying it could work!

2. I think it's become clear that what MC (not me!) calls FFW and REW is in fact fast repeated seeking, not rate adjustment.

3. I never mentioned audio and frankly don't care  

4. See 2!

I look forward to trying the version you tested FFW with  . All I can say, again, is that REW works identically to FFW for a) other media types b) VOBs with LAV/MadVR c) DVDs and RO Standard! Hopefully DVDs and ROHQ can be made to do the same.

Please note I am not trying to do something exotic here, just make a standard feature of MC not fail completely when playing DVDs using ROHQ  

Thanks again for joining in.

[Hendrik]

All I can say, again, is that REW works identically to FFW for a) other media types b) VOBs with LAV/MadVR

I thought you understood that comparing file playback with DVD playback is useless already?

Anyway, like i said, FF seems to work the same as with RO Std now, and RWD is just a broken concept

[Jong]

Did you (selectively) not see c) in the line you quoted?   DVD Navigator by itself, clearly, does not necessarily stop this from working.

[Hendrik]

DVD Navigator by itself, clearly, does not necessarily stop this from working.

Actually, it does. It requires a lot of special hackery to be supported because someone at Microsoft thought that re-inventing every single piece of playback logic would be a good thing.
RO Std uses Microsofts own decoder right now, which results in this obviously working to some extend.

Anyway, like i said, Fast Forward works pretty good now, and Rewind .. well, lets just say it goes backwards.

[Jong]

I really appreciate the effort and look forward to seeing what you've done, but as REW (as implemented by MC) works with other media and with DVD Navigator and RO Std, I would still say it is not a broken concept   

[Hendrik]

If it implemented REW itself, LAV wouldn't have to support the broken way the DVD Navigator tries to do it, and it would've worked without changes.

Its own thing only gets used for file playback.

[Jong]

Thanks. Can't wait to try the new version.

[Jong]

If possible it would be great to try a beta or even Alpha version of LAV with this change, just to try it out.

[Jong]

Fixed with LAV 0.55.2. Better than expected - it actually does fast forward and rewind - not just skip frames. Thanks nevcairiel.

There is a bit of "funkiness" when you try to go > x20 - the seek bar says x50, but if you press multiple times it seems to go faster than this, plus when you first change speed it seems to do a much bigger jump, then settle at a new speed. But still, it DOES ffw/rew and up to x20 seems to work very well.