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[Mark_Chat]

I have my SACD backups as DSDIFF files (edit master .dff as one continuous file plus .cue files) and JRiver recognises these perfectly and imports them into my library and they look, feel and play on my desktop PC without trouble, and they play on my HTPC without trouble and they stream to my Sony DLNA speaker as separate tracks without trouble (it accepts DSD Direct) i.e. they simply behave just as if they are separate tracks, as you would expect.

However, yesterday I tried streaming to my Oppo BDP-105 via DLNA using both JRemote and direct from Media Centre on screen interface.

Flacs etc all work fine - I can play individual tracks, switch tracks etc as normal, skip and go back.
With DSD files I could not.

The DSD files could be streamed to the Oppo over Wi-Fi ("SACD" recognised by the Oppo and correctly transmitted to my surround sound processor as DSD Direct) and truly sounded stunning - so much better than the 24 bit 176.4kHz which was my other option. (Night and day, even with level matching, and I got quite excited)

BUT - "Playing" track 6 of an album resulted in the Oppo playing track one i.e. the whole long file from the beginning. I couldn't skip tracks to go forwards using either JRemote or the MC interface.
The MC "Playing Now" and the Oppo OSD both report track 6 being played with the correct metadata and track length in min:sec displayed, even when it was track one playing would then continue to play for the whole album in one go.
Incidentally, this was all gapless between tracks which was nice!

While "track 6" was playing (Actually track 1 of the 10 track single file+cue file being played) I could get JRiver to "Play now" track 4 and the Oppo and JRiver OSD would change to track 4 buy, Hey Presto!, the DSD track would start playing right from the beginning again - track one.

Any ideas!?
I disabled event polling and it made no difference (no idea what it does but couldn't find other options to fiddle with) and made a completely custom DLNA server linked to the Oppo with DLNA, DLNA extra, send bitrate all checked and DSD bitstreaming (DoPE)unchecked - the Oppo will accept only DSD direct and not DoPE and still no go.

I am a bit baffled.
Surely JRiver is "pushing" audio to the Oppo and so can simply push track 6 data when it is requested to do so? Why would it send the album from track one onwards instead?

I will get the chance to run Whitebear DRMA again later and will post here. I did it yesterday and saw nothing unusual but forgot to save it!
I'll also enable logging.
Hope someone can help!

[AndrewFG]

Firstly there is absolutely no need for you to run my DMR analyzer on your Oppo because I have an Oppo myself anyway. In fact it is interesting that you report that the Oppo does actually play DSD/DFF tracks, because interestingly it does not actually declare that capability in its report (i.e. it does not include that format in its SinkProtocolInfo list).

As you know you can set up the MC UPnP / DLNA server to serve tracks either a) in "Original" format or b) in transcoded "Specified Format". When "Original" is selected the MC server is not allowed to mess around with the track stream data; it just simply serves that file. So since your SACD album is a single file then the MC server has no choice than to serve that one single file with no tampering i.e. regardless of which track you want to push.

Unfortunately there is no option for the MC UPnP / DLNA server to serve files "split up but still in original format", so if you want to force it to split the tracks, I think you may need to change the UPnP / DLNA server settings to "Specified Format" = "PCM L16 No Header" (a safe option) or if you need it then possibly try "Specified Format" = "PCM 24 bit" (although I am not completely sure if the Oppo supports PCM 24 bit files, but there is no harm in you trying that if you want).

[Mark_Chat]

Thanks Andrew.
You are, as usual correct.

DSD does indeed play nicely over DLNA to the Oppo. In order for JRiver MC to pass DSD to the Oppo BDP-105, the DLNA server needs to be set to original format, DoPE unchecked, resulting in the problem you correctly diagnoses with my album-in-one plus .cue file

Because the Oppo reports SetNextAVTransportURI (gapless play)=NOT Supported, I am not going to split the DSDIFF + cuefile into individual .dff tracks, which would solve my original problem but create a new one with gaps.

I will instead use continue to use JRiver to pass PCM (up to 7.1Ch 24 bit 192kHz) to my surround sound processor via HDMI and bypass the Oppo completely, using 24bit 176kHz for DSD files.
My original intention was to use the DLNA function plus DSD over HDMI output function of the Oppo to get multichannel DSD out of the PC and into my DSD over HDMI Surround Sound Processor (which doesn't handle DoPE)

Thanks for the help!

[AndrewFG]

Notwithstanding what I already said above, I do think that this could be an area where the guys at JRiver could improve the functionality (feature request).

Currently when the MC Control Point pushes a track to a renderer it sends the SetAVTransportURI() command followed by the Play() command (followed by subsequent SetAV[Next]TransportURI commands for the subsequent tracks); and it does that regardless of whether it is pushing a single track file or a multi track file with a CUE file.

Now I could imagine that for CUE based tracks MC could/should change its behavior to send a SetAVTransportURI() command, a Play() command, and insofar as the CUE track is not the first track a Seek() command to tell the renderer to move immediately to the right track.

Obviously MC would have to do some math to calibrate the offset used in its Seek commands to equal the CUE offset of the start of the track, plus the time offset within the track. And for its Playing Now display it would need to reverse that math so that the displayed position equals the actual position within the full file minus the CUE offset of the start of the track.

This could be one of those "too easy" improvement suggestions. => Any comments JimH ??

[kr4]

I have just asked Jim H about mch/DSD over DLNA and he referred me back to this forum.  It is not just with the Oppo but with newer stand-alone DACs/Renderers that use ethernet.  I am using an exaSound PlayPoint as a renderer but have to install minimserver on my NAS because I cannot figure out how to get MC to send mch/DSD to it (even though both are accessing the same files on the NAS)..

First, I can get only PCM up to 192kHz, no DSD.
Second, with multichannel files (specifically converted DSD), 5.1 plays fine but 5.0 filesplay with the RS in the LS speaker and LS in the subwoofer.  In otherwords, with the LFE signal missing, the following ones are bumped up out of place.  This is with #channels set to either "Source# of channels" or to "5.1"  The latter usually fixes the problem with direct connections but not with DLNA.

Any help/insight would be appreciated as docs for DLNA configuration are skimpy.

Kal

[AndrewFG]

Frankly I would not expect anything to play 5.0 tracks via DLNA ...

[kr4]

Frankly I would not expect anything to play 5.0 tracks via DLNA ...

Why?

[JimH]

In AndrewFG's signature, he has a tool that might help:
Whitebear Digital Media Renderer Analyser - http://www.whitebear.ch/dmra

If you run it, you will find out what the capabilities of the Renderer are.  They aren't always as advertised.

The DLNA standard doesn't include support for all formats.  You're on the edge with what you're trying to do.

I'm confused about the role of minimserver.  Please describe

1.  Your objective

2.  Your setup

If you're trying to play to a DLNA Renderer, MC can do that.  Import the files first, then turn on Media Network.  Then select the device you want to play to.

In MC's DLNA Server settings, you can specify the formats you want.  It's under Options > Media Network > Add or Configure DLNA Servers.

[kr4]

In AndrewFG's signature, he has a tool that might help:
Whitebear Digital Media Renderer Analyser - http://www.whitebear.ch/dmra

If you run it, you will find out what the capabilities of the Renderer are.  They aren't always as advertised.

Thanks, I will try that.

The DLNA standard doesn't include support for all formats.  You're on the edge with what you're trying to do.

Yes and I have the bruises to prove it.

I'm confused about the role of minimserver.  Please describe
1.  Your objective
2.  Your setup
If you're trying to play to a DLNA Renderer, MC can do that.  Import the files first, then turn on Media Network.  Then select the device you want to play to.
In MC's DLNA Server settings, you can specify the formats you want.  It's under Options > Media Network > Add or Configure DLNA Servers.

OK.  
1.  I am trying to use an Ethernet renderer capable of up to 4xDSD and 32/383kHz PCM at up to 8channels.  Directly through its USB port, MC works just fine with it.  I am having issues using it as a network audio player.
2.  Files on NAS, MC 21 running on i7/Win7 PC and with various DACs and renderers connectable via HDMI, USB and ethernet.  I can use S/PDIF, but that won't cut it for hi def and/or multichannel.  Everything is hard-wired via gigabit network.

The manufacturer of the DAC/network audio player recommends minimserver on the NAS and a controller (in this case MC) for UPnP, but they also support NAA protocol.  I have tried this and using MC alone.
A.  I created a new MC library with minimserver as the target and it sees all my PCM and DSD files but not the ISOs.  I can use MC to send them to the network player in PCM or DSD and in multichannel.  The only drawbacks to this are (1) it doesn't see the ISOs (and I have a lot of them) and (2) minimserver doesn't see all the formatting and metadata work that I have already lavished on my main MC library.
B.  When I try to use MC's DLNA as an output to the network player, it works in PCM (no DSD) and multichannel.  However, the channel routing is flakey in that 5.1 files are fine but 5.0 files redistribute the channels because of the missing LFE channel.  The result is that LS plays on the subwoofer, RS plays on the LS speaker and the RS speaker is silent.

[JimH]

Well, I don't think it could get more complicated.  Just a few thoughts.  Maybe some will help.

You can move channels around in MC's DSP Studio.

See if you can get it working at all without minimserver.  Loading the library from a DLNA server like minimserver isn't ideal.

Use MC as the DLNA Server, and import the files from the NAS drive.

I told you about modifying the DLNA Server settings, but I don't know whether you've tried that.

Andrew's tool will certainly help.

When you're using DLNA, you can think of the playback as a file transfer to the Renderer.  MC will send whatever your Controller tells the Renderer to play.  Unless MC thinks the Renderer can't play it.  DSD is a stretch for DLNA.

[kr4]

Here's an update.

You can move channels around in MC's DSP Studio.

Yes but, it turns out that the target (exaSound PP) needed updated firmware to fix this.

See if you can get it working at all without minimserver.  Loading the library from a DLNA server like minimserver isn't ideal.

Done and agreed.

When you're using DLNA, you can think of the playback as a file transfer to the Renderer.  MC will send whatever your Controller tells the Renderer to play.  Unless MC thinks the Renderer can't play it.  DSD is a stretch for DLNA.

Yes.  I can now send DSD but but only as DSF/DFF.  None of the ISO files will play but that is understandable.

[AndrewFG]

Just to be sure, can you please tell us if you are playing to the Oppo player via an HDMI input or via UPnP / DLNA ??

If the former (HDMI), then its audio input specifications ( https://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-105/blu-ray-BDP-105-Features.aspx ) are Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, DTS, AAC, up to 5.1ch/192kHz or 7.1ch/96kHz PCM -- but there is no mention of DSD / DFF support

If the latter (UPnP) then its claimed audio input capabilities include PCM L16, FLAC, MP4A, AIFF, WAV and MP3 -- but again there is no mention of DSD / DFF support.

So, if you find that the player does play DSD/DFF then it is perhaps more by chance than by design. And perhaps not surprising if it does not always work.

Furthermore I am actually not sure if MC is even able to split DSD/DFF streams into track based sub streams based on cue files when pushing via UPnP. It sounds quite unlikely, as IMO it would need to convert to PCM to do the split, and then convert back to DSD/DFF.

So I think your best bet is to set MC to Always Convert audio to PCM L16 (No Header) although possibly PCM WAV (With Header) would also work fine.

And by the way, apropos the side comment about 5.0 channels, there is nothing either in Oppo's specifications or in its UPnP declarations which would make you think that it might be able to play 5.0 (it declares 2ch over UPnP and 2, 5.1 and 7.1 over HDMI -- don't be confused by the "up to" statement because the PCM standard specification itself only permits 1, 2, and further even numbers of channels 5.1, 7.1, etc. upwards)..

[RolandG]

No Andrew, DSD support has been added via firmware update quite a while ago. So that can't be the problem.

He OPPO is, however, very picky when it comes to cue sheets. I can herdly make it work with FLAC or ALAC files and wouldn't even try with DSD files.

[AndrewFG]

See my two earlier comments..

Furthermore I am actually not sure if MC is even able to split DSD/DFF streams into track based sub streams based on cue files when pushing via UPnP. It sounds quite unlikely, as IMO it would need to convert to PCM to do the split, and then convert back to DSD/DFF.

So I think your best bet is to set MC to Always Convert audio to PCM L16 (No Header) although possibly PCM WAV (With Header) would also work fine.

[RolandG]

You're right, of course. I meant that even with the OPPO app itself, it's sometimes a crap shoot using cue sheets with FLAC or ALAC files. So, trying it with DSD files, like the OP has, might really be pushing it a bit too far.

[AndrewFG]

It is important to understand how UPNP functions.

It pushes one single media track URL at a time. If you have just one master media file containing many concatenated tracks, then it can only push that one master track URL, which can only play out as a single entity (without track based seeking).

If you want to play individual tracks, then MC would have to transcode the master file into individual temporary track media files, and push each of those temporary file URLs individually.

If your master media file was a DSD file, then MC would have to convert it to a temporary PCM file, then split that into the individual tracks in PCM format, then convert the PCM back to DSD before serving the individual tracks. You probably don't want it to do that. And indeed MC does not do that...

[pepar]

Any more recent threads pick up this subject ... how best to play DSD in its purest/purist form with JRiver?  Is DLNA/Oppo still the best solution?

Jeff