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[SamuriHL]

Not a bad idea, actually.  Cause you really only want the log from where a problem occurs.  Great for those that occur in the beginning.  Not so great for those that occur an hour and some change into playback.  If you had a size limit that simply started dropping old logging data once it hit that point it'd allow those of us with this kind of problem to help troubleshoot it.  Then again, with the luck I have, a debug version won't show the same issue.  LOL

[Hendrik]

Hmmmm... How can the render queue be full if the render time is 47-56ms? Sounds quite weird...

I've had the same issue half way through a movie as well again today. All queues fill except present, which was 0-1/12 in D3D11 FSE.
Had to stop and restart for it to continue.

Also, half the time I start playing, present queue gets stuck at 7-9/12 with constant repeat frames and presentation glitches, other half it works flawlessly at 11-12/12

On top of that, starting playback takes literally 30 seconds before an image shows up when I tell madVR to enable 3D mode. Not sure that can be improved, but it could really benefit from some.

[madshi]

That's Windows 8.1, Hendrik, right?

[Hendrik]

That's Windows 8.1, Hendrik, right?

Yep. NVIDIA Geforce GTX 960.

[SamuriHL]

Yea, that's my experience on Windows 10 almost to a T.  I would argue that I may have missed the render queue being empty during playback when the issue was happening and it filled again when i paused.  But I checked the queues and they all looked full at the time of playback.  So that's strange.  nVidia 680GTX.

[Hendrik]

My render queue remained full, it was just the present queue that bottomed out. Considering it barely managed to show one frame per second (if at all), it would have had plenty time to render enough frames. =p

[SamuriHL]

Yea, I mean you saw my render times.  50ms seems....you know, a bit high.  LOL.  Something bad is definitely happening an hour to an hour and a half into playback.

[JimH]

Do you have a screensaver trying to activate after an hour?

[SamuriHL]

Oh god no.  Dedicated HTPC/Gaming machine.  Nothing like that.

[Hendrik]

My screen-off timer is 10 minutes on that system, not an hour, and MC suppresses any such things anyway. Its probably some kind of fluke with presenting the stereo video, maybe driver related, who knows. Its all unexplored land here!

[SamuriHL]

Is that not the fun though??    Exciting times for 3D.

[madshi]

I don't suppose either of you has an AMD GPU to double check with? Anyway, I'm going to rework the logging, so I can get some logs for this problem.

[Hilton]

Not going to help much but here's a quick 1min clip of my system getting stuck in 2D until bumping the top MC control panel on for a sec with the mouse.

Mc Madvr 3D by Hilton, on Flickr

[jmone]

Yup, same for me

[SamuriHL]

I don't suppose either of you has an AMD GPU to double check with? Anyway, I'm going to rework the logging, so I can get some logs for this problem.

No I don't.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, something is wrong with subtitles.  On Avatar, if I select the second english sub track, which should be the Navi language only forced subs, I get zero subs showing up.  If I select the first english sub track that contains subs for everything, then they display properly.  Any ideas on what could be happening?

I have the new subtitle interface with madVR almost done, that should hopefully solve all those problems.

[SamuriHL]

I have the new subtitle interface with madVR almost done, that should hopefully solve all those problems.

Awesome, thank you!

[TheShoe]

so question for all of you since the thread doesn't seem clear:

If I run Windows 10 on some good hardware with an Intel integrated chipset (Intel Iris chipset in a late model mac mini) can it decode MVC 3D?

Or do I need to have either an nVidia or ATI chipset?

(and it still amazes me a $50 Raspberry Pi2 can do this in hardware on OpenElec, but I would prefer JRiver for several other reasons)

[Hendrik]

If I run Windows 10 on some good hardware with an Intel integrated chipset (Intel Iris chipset in a late model mac mini) can it decode MVC 3D?

Should be fine as long as the CPU isn't too weak to decode the video. Hardware decoding for 3D might come at a later time, but not yet.

[jmone]

I'm getting Presentation Glitches (and dropped frames) in both Windows Exclusive and Overlay.  I've dropped rendering to just Jinc and I see that my rendering queue is always showing around 13ms but the Max 5sec stats is always around around 50ms.

What settings are you guys using (I have a 960)?

Thanks
Nathan

[SamuriHL]

Try dropping the exclusive mode number of frames and see if that helps.

[jmone]

Thanks - that did help

[madshi]

Ok, after upgrading my HTPC to Windows 10 and plugging an NVidia GPU in, I can reproduce the problems you guys reported with starting playback in non-FSE fullscreen mode. This does not happen on my development PC (Windows 8.1), though, and it's a very weird behaviour. From all I can see, it's an NVidia driver issue. I've tried several things to work around it (changes in the D3D11 initialization order etc), but nothing worked. I suppose forcing initialization in non-fullscreen windowed mode and then switching to fullscreen windowed mode shortly afterwards might work, but I'm hesitant to add such a bad hack.

I've also found that FSE mode runs with MUCH better reliability and lower rendering times in Windows 10 with NVidia, when playing 3D frame packed content. So I'd really strongly recommend that you guys setup a profile for 3D which enables FSE mode just for 3D, if you absolutely don't want to use it for 2D.

Another thing: I've found that the NVidia driver produces very weird and non-spec-conform D3D11 presentation statistics during 3D frame packed output, which caused all sorts of playback issues on my PC. I can say that this is *definitely* a driver issue, my own logs pretty clearly show that the GPU driver reports bad timing data, which screws up the whole glitch logic which Microsoft recommends to use for D3D11 presentation.   

So in v0.90.13 I've now added a new D3D11 sub option called "use alternative glitch handling mode". This option modifies the D3D11 presentation to behave much more similar to my D3D9 presentation logic. On my PC at least with this option enabled I get reliably smooth playback in both fullscreen windowed (after switching in and out) and FSE mode. However, in windowed mode I have to dumb the scaling options down a lot to make it run really smoothly. FSE mode allows much stronger settings.

I hope that the new "use alternative glitch handling mode" will solve the 3D playback reliability issues you reported (movie starting to drop frames like crazy after 1 hour playback or so)?

[SamuriHL]

Awesome! Thanks!! I'll check it out tomorrow when I get a chance.

[jmone]

Thanks Madshi!  I can confirm that the latest release of madVR/Lav using FSE:
- Sub Depth now works on BD (note: MakeMKV rips don't so I presume such rips "lose" depth info?)
- Much more stable with the new presentation glitch handling
- Can also now run "better" algos (in my case Jinc+AR+LL etc) without dropping frames

Nice release and glad you can confirm the Full Screen Windows Issue

[Hendrik]

- Sub Depth now works on BD (note: MakeMKV rips don't so I presume such rips "lose" depth info?)

That is correct. MKVs dont contain this information. We could define a way to tag this, but unless we can get a line to a MakeMKV developer to get this done, it would be a lot of tedious manual labor, especially since I know of no analyzer that just shows this information for manual tagging.
For now the best way to rip a 3D movie is probably going to be in BDMV structure, as no special metadata is lost this way. Its unfortunate that such rips then have problems identifying forced subtitles and such. Just no perfect solution right now.

[jmone]

100% happy with the rip to unencrypted Structure (as I've been doing for years) as who knows what the future will bring (eg one day... maybe... with optional BD Menu Voldemort support forced subs will be known and I'll not have to re-rip all me discs).

On thing with the 3D Stucture Rips is the doubling of the disk size due to the SSIF folder.  I read you said you don't use this and sure enough if I rename 00001.ssif to 00001.ssif2 the BD still plays in 3D.  What gives with these?

[jmone]

FYI - One "bug" is that BD 3D disks are treated as "Other Video" not "Ripped BD Video" under Tools--> Options--> File Location when ripping.

[madshi]

- Sub Depth now works on BD (note: MakeMKV rips don't so I presume such rips "lose" depth info?)

Actually, for MakeMKV rips it should work, too! Although madVR there doesn't know which depth information track is meant for which subtitle track, so madVR simply uses the track which is farthest away from the viewer (but non-zero).

[jmone]

Got it - The example I've been looking at is on Avatar from about 1:36 where a bunch of different depths are used and some of the subs would appear to have a depth that is "behind" a foreground actor (but looks good on the latest release with a BD version)

[Hendrik]

Well, it works about half without the specific information. It can look out of place in some places when the exact depth isnt known, but best we can do.

[jmone]

Thanks gents I'm all good - 100% BD Structures for me (outside my test files), just testing the changes and reporting back.

[Hilton]

Watched Life of Pi 3D tonight and 55mins in it turned into a slide show with the alternate glitch handling enabled.
Subtitles didn't work in this one either.

[JimH]

Did you update madVR yesterday?

[Hilton]

Yep

[stewart_pk]

I'm using the latest version of MadVR which is 0.90.13. I've had some pretty good success as I managed to watch Minions 3D perfectly from start to finish. But then watching Inside Out it's hard to explain but things started looking "warped" after about 5 minutes; the other half who forces me to watch these animated movies noticed the same thing. I tried restarting the computer but the problem remained. Cyberlink PowerDVD 15 plays the same movie without the "warped" effect. My video card is an ATI AMD 6450 based card and I'm running Windows 10. This is the best I could find regarding this release: http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Inside-Out-3D-Blu-ray/134453/

[madshi]

- Much more stable with the new presentation glitch handling
- Can also now run "better" algos (in my case Jinc+AR+LL etc) without dropping frames

So far, so good. Did you originally have a problem after ~1 hour of playback? Did you have a chance to check whether this problem still occurs?

Watched Life of Pi 3D tonight and 55mins in it turned into a slide show with the alternate glitch handling enabled.
Subtitles didn't work in this one either.

That's too bad. So no improvement for you?

What exactly do you mean with "Subtitles didn't work"? Did you get no subtitle image at all? Or you got subtitles but with audio/video sync issues? Or with missing 3D depth? I'm not sure if Hendrik's newest subtitle changes are already available as an MC21 test build?

I'm using the latest version of MadVR which is 0.90.13. I've had some pretty good success as I managed to watch Minions 3D perfectly from start to finish. But then watching Inside Out it's hard to explain but things started looking "warped" after about 5 minutes; the other half who forces me to watch these animated movies noticed the same thing. I tried restarting the computer but the problem remained. Cyberlink PowerDVD 15 plays the same movie without the "warped" effect. My video card is an ATI AMD 6450 based card and I'm running Windows 10. This is the best I could find regarding this release: http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Inside-Out-3D-Blu-ray/134453/

Can you describe what "warped" means exactly? Have you played the Blu-Ray directly? Or a MakeMKV remux?

[Hilton]

So far, so good. Did you originally have a problem after ~1 hour of playback? Did you have a chance to check whether this problem still occurs?

That's too bad. So no improvement for you?

What exactly do you mean with "Subtitles didn't work"? Did you get no subtitle image at all? Or you got subtitles but with audio/video sync issues? Or with missing 3D depth? I'm not sure if Hendrik's newest subtitle changes are already available as an MC21 test build?

Can you describe what "warped" means exactly? Have you played the Blu-Ray directly? Or a MakeMKV remux?

I could see subtitles very quickly flash up if switched between them but they never stayed, probably displaying on wrong depth.
Watching Jupiter Ascending 3D straight after and the forced Subs worked out of the box with no changes.
Smoother overall with much less dropped frames but the slide show at 55mins required stopping and restarting the movie. I didn't check madvr OSD but assume same issue as reported earlier.

I think the warping that Stewart referred to is the left/right eye in the wrong order. Stewart do you have a button on the remote to switch your display device left/right eye order? If not try switching left/right in madvr.

[bhampster]

Good News if the current Nvidia Drivers are buggy.

They update them often. Bad news is that's because they put all the energy into making the next game release work but it's still possible something will get sorted.

Also if a different card really proves to be bullet proof then it's not too much to imagine a GPU swap if needed.

I have been using GTX750 with great success in FSE mode. I agree with the notion that FSE is more robust in W10.

Watched Creature from the Black Lagoon in 3D yesterday and LOVED IT!

[Hilton]

One other thing that's great news with Madvr 3D!

I can enable custom resolution settings to get better 2D timings and 3D will still work.
Default Nvidia 1080p23 2d res results in display rate of 23.971 but with my custom 2d res I can get display rate to 23.976xx.
3D is still unfortunately using the Nvidia default timings for 3D though, but at least 3D still works with a custom 2D resolution now!

Before using TMT or PowerDVD 3D used to not work if you created a custom 2D 1080p24 resolution.

Now all we need is to be able to set a custom 3D resolution and bypass the hardcoded Nvidia timings for 3D resolutions. (you cant set custom 3D res with Nvidia control panel)

Here's my custom timings.
23.976-custom by Hilton, on Flickr

Here's the result in 2D. The repeated and dropped frames are from the start up.
nvidia-custom-2D by Hilton, on Flickr

[madshi]

Here's a special debug build to try to get to the bottom of the slide show after ~ 1 hour of 3D playback:

http://madshi.net/madVRmc21debug3d.rar

During playback the debug log is now written to the two files "madVR - log.txt" and "madVR - old.txt", and then when the media player is closed, both are joined into one "madVR - log.txt". Both files can not grow larger than 256MB each, so the biggest the log file can grow now is 512MB.

If you can reproduce the slide show problem, please try to do so with this debug log. When the slide show starts, let it run for 20 seconds, then please close MC21 without any detours and upload the log file for me. Please ZIP the log, it compresses extremely well. Thanks!

[jmone]

So far, so good. Did you originally have a problem after ~1 hour of playback? Did you have a chance to check whether this problem still occurs?

I did not originally have the problem (and I've also not watched a full movie since the new version).  Also I forgot to say my Lip Sync issues sometimes being out is also addressed with the better glitch handling.

[RD James]

I can enable custom resolution settings to get better 2D timings and 3D will still work.

There shouldn't be any need for custom timings if you have VideoClock enabled.

[bhampster]

There shouldn't be any need for custom timings if you have VideoClock enabled.

I think I agree. I was excited to punch in your custom timings till I saw the 1 frame drop every 47 minutes or so item. I think I get no expected frame drops.

[stewart_pk]

Can you describe what "warped" means exactly? Have you played the Blu-Ray directly? Or a MakeMKV remux?

I tried it again last night and the same problem occurred. The best way I can describe it is an excessive amount of cross-talk. PowerDVD 15 was used again with no problem.

I tried it with both the Blu-Ray directly and with a rip using DVDFab that created a folder structure and a miniso. The miniso was then mounted with DVDFab Virtual Drive.

[stewart_pk]

I think the warping that Stewart referred to is the left/right eye in the wrong order. Stewart do you have a button on the remote to switch your display device left/right eye order? If not try switching left/right in madvr.

Thanks, I will try this when I get the chance.

[Hilton]

I think I agree. I was excited to punch in your custom timings till I saw the 1 frame drop every 47 minutes or so item. I think I get no expected frame drops.

Yeah the frame drop calc takes a while to settle but I wouldn't expect a drop within the timescale of the movie with 0.00013% variance.
Call me a purist. I have had stability issues with reclocking stuff in the past but I guess I can give it another go, as you say it's the easy way to bend the video or audio.

[jmone]

Videoclock is great.  Just turn it on and relax

[bhampster]

Given a choice I would rather be a purist also.

I would rather it's perfect then it has a great way to repair the imperfections.

Either way,... motion and panning and stuff like that is really where the quality can show of any system no matter if it's in the encoding or decoding.

[madshi]

Ok, I've been able to reproduce two important issues with my Windows 10 HTPC. One of these is the slide show after ~ 1 hour of playback. I was able to create a log for that myself, and it appears to be my fault, and I hope to have it fixed in the next build. However, the other issue is unlikely to be my fault:

I've played two full 3D movies now with the new glitch handling and I've found that in both movies while they start playing fine, at some point suddenly there appears to be a 1 frame (or more) delay between left and right eyes, which looks rather weird. Due to the way madVR handles stereo frames this is very unlikely to be my fault. I could imagine this to be a bug in either the NVidia GPU drivers, the Intel Media SDK, the LAV Video Decoder or the LAV Splitter.

@Hendrik, what are you thoughts on the matter? Do you see a chance there could be a bug in LAV Splitter or Decoder which could cause a 1 frame desync between left and right eye? FWIW, it occurred 3 times for me, and a seek reliably fixed the issue all 3 times for me. Due to a seek fixing the issue I'm doubtful that this would be NVidia's fault, but I can't be sure, it's still possible. Do you have any ideas how to track down which component (NVidia, Intel, LAV Splitter, LAV Decoder, madVR) might be responsible for this problem?