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[Rossputin]

Hello all,

I just bought a USB DAC called an SMSL M9 which looks very cool and has great specs for a unit of its price but it has basically no instructions (its from China) and I'm struggling to play DSD files.

Device is here:
https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/smsl-m9-ak4390ef-32bit-768khz-dsd512-hifi-dac-decoder-balance-headphone-amplifier.html

I have device setting set to USB DAC [ASIO].  There is a WASAPI option available but from what I read online that's unlikely to be a better choice so I haven't experimented with it much.

When I have MC output set to Bitstream and Bitstream set to DSD and Output Encoding set to None, the DAC says it's getting 44.1kHz when I'm playing a 5644 khz bitrate DSD file but I can hear the music.  With these settings, when I go to DSP studio, it says source is 44.1kHz 64bit 2ch, and says same for internal and at the top where it says "enabled and processing 44.1 kHz 64bit 2ch".

When I change Output Encoding, at different settings I can get the DAC to show that it's receiving different higher bit rates, sometimes the actual right one, but I get either static, or alternating static and silence.

Any help much appreciated!

Ross in Colorado

[dtc]

The DAC probably uses DoP (Digital over PCM) rather than native DSD input.  To use DoP you need to select it in the ASIO driver setup. You should also be sure that the driver is set to allow the driver to take Exclusive Access.

If you use Output Format, make sure >768 KHz is set to No Change.

You can use Audio Path (the three vertical lines at the top fight of the display) to see what MC sees for the input and what it is outputting.  It should show the DSD input sample rate and the DoP conversion.

Output Encoding converts everything, including PCM files, to DSD. You should only use it if that is your intent.

[Rossputin]

Update: In JRiver Device Settings, the choices which seem relevant are:

USB DAC [ASIO]
SMSL USB DAC [WASAPI]
SMSL M9 1.1.2 [Kernel Streaming
SMSL USB DAC [Direct Sound]

[Rossputin]

dtc, I think I've tried every combination of DoP and not DoP without success. I would expect this thing to take direct DSD signals, but I will ask the company. Not sure how long they'll take to respond.

[dtc]

If the DAC uses DoP then either ASIO or WASAPI will work. If it uses native DSD it needs ASIO. Kernal Streaming and Direct Sound should not be used.

[dtc]

My guess is it uses DoP since Apple does not support native DSD and their documentation discusses Apple.

What does Audio Path tell you?  For a 2.8 MHz DSD it should say input is 2.8 MHz DSD and output is 176 KHz DoP or 352 KHz DoP for 5.6 MHz DSD.

[Rossputin]

Audio path says "Input: 44.1 kHz 2ch from source format MP3" (NO MATTER WHAT FILE I PLAY!!!)

Looking at library, it says song bitrate 5644 and file type dsf

I have tried with multiple files from multiple albums.

Also, when I play a FLAC song, such as with bitrate 896, the audio path still says what I wrote above.

This is all using my only ASIO choice.

Other settings:
Channel offset 0. Channel swap: None
Buffering 50 milliseconds
DSD bitstream in DoP format (have tried this both on and off...no difference)

No output encoding. All sample rates set to no change.

Bitstreaming: Yes (DSD)  (Changing this to none makes no difference)

FYI: DRIVER IS XMOS USB DAC DRIVER V 4.11.0

[dtc]

No idea why it would say mp3 for everything. That makes no sense.

You should look at sample rate, not bit rate. Sample rate of 5644 would be 5.6 MHz which is 2x DSD.

I would try the WASAPI option.

Is Exclusive Mode set?

[Rossputin]

No difference with WASAPI inc when set to exclusive. No difference with other relevant device selections either.

Example file has sample rate of 2822400 Hz.
Path still says 44.1kHz and still says it's reading an MP3 file.

Also when I play FLAC with 96kHz sample rate, path still says 44.1kHz

[Rossputin]

Is there any chance it could make a difference that the songs are sitting on one server and that this copy of JRiver is using a library key to reference the library on that server rather than on the local hard drive? I doubt this is the issue but thought I'd ask.

[dtc]

Yes it could definitely make a difference. You may be seeing a conversion from the server to the client. You should set the client to not do any conversions - Media Network - Client Options - Audio Conversions.

Can you put a DSD file on a local disk and play the DSD from a local library rather than from the server? That would take the client/server part out of the picture.


Will check back in the morning.  Good luck.

[Rossputin]

OK, that made a huge difference. Still some issues but we're darned close now.  (Turning off audio conversion from server and playing from local hard drive work the same.)

I HAD TO TURN OFF BITSTREAM TO MAKE IT WORK, but turning "DSD BITSTREAM IN DoP FORMAT" on or off doesn't make any difference which makes me think the DAC will take DSD signal directly, right?

Sample files are 2822400 but path says 352.8kHz. Input says 64-bit but output says 32-bit and "not using enough bits to output the input directly."

In Media Network, conversion is set to don't convert and encoder is set to PCM 24-bit. Not sure what matters...

[dtc]

If you are getting 352 KHz frm 2.8 MHz DSD then you are actually converting from DSD to PCM. You should see 176 KHz for DoP. You need to have bitstream turned on in order to send DoP.

[Rossputin]

If I turn bitstream on, I don't get any sound (if I remember correctly...I'm at work right now.)

When you say i'm converting DSD to PCM does that mean the DAC is doing it or JRiver is doing it? I'm guessing it's the DAC since the path seems to say 2.8MHz out.

What does it mean when it's 64-bit in and 32-bit out because it's "not using enough bits"?

Thanks for everything!

[Awesome Donkey]

If you want to output native DSD, you have to enable DSD bitstreaming. If you don't Media Center is converting DSD to PCM, hence the "not enough bits" message.

You might want to contact SMSL about it and the correct settings needed for DSD playback. Chances are though they're using DoP for DSD output.

[Rossputin]

Thanks. I'll experiment with it some more when I get home and I have sent questions to SMSL already so we'll see when they respond.

What do you think the difference in audio quality is between what's going on now and if I could get the full DSD working right?

[dtc]

The DSD to PCM conversion is being done by MC probably because bitstreaming is not on.  What do you see in Audio Path if bitstreaming is on for DSD?

Since the documentation for the DAC talks about Apple, I am pretty sure that it uses DoP, since that is the only want Apple can set a DSD file.

[Rossputin]

If you read this, it reads as if it should take DSD directly through Windows and ASIO:
https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/smsl-m9-ak4390ef-32bit-768khz-dsd512-hifi-dac-decoder-balance-headphone-amplifier.html

Actually, this page specifically says "Native DSD" and "up to DSD512"
http://www.smsl-audio.com/productshow.asp?id=108

So sounds like I need to turn on Bitstreaming and then figure out what else to do.  But yesterday I had no luck with Bitstreaming on.

Still curious whether you think DSD to PCM conversion will result in any audible difference than DSD straight through.

[Awesome Donkey]

DoP is native DSD, the end result is the same like sending pure DSD to a supported DAC.

But yeah, looks like a DoP DAC to me. I don't see a manual or anything on the SMSL website. Seems like terrible customer service to me not having one. There's no FAQ either - it's empty!

[Rossputin]

so if you're right that it's DoP, then should the DAC screen show the 2.8MHz rate or the 352kHz rate? And if it's DoP does that mean I would leave Bitsreaming off?

And still trying to understand which of these things would cause a difference in audio quality.

Thanks again!

[Awesome Donkey]

If it's showing 352kHz then DSD bitstreaming is not on.

Please take and upload screenshots of your MC Options > Audio section, then a screenshot of the settings found under View menu > DSP Studio > Output Format.

If you want to play DSD as-it-is, you have to enable DSD bitstreaming regardless of DoP or native/pure DSD output. Otherwise Media Center will convert it to PCM like it's trying to do now.

[dtc]

I think the Native DSD refers to what the DAC chip can play, rather than how the signal gets to the DAC.

DoP simple packs the 0s and 1s of the DSD into a PCM file type and then the DAC unpacks the 0s and 1s to give the native DSD stream to send to the DAC chip. As I have said, Apple does not support the high sample rate output required to send native DSD at the original sample rate. Since the DAC says it supports Apple, it has to use DoP to do DSD from Apple.

For 1xDSD DoP, some DACs show 2.8 MHz, some show 176 KHz. It depends on what the designer decided to do. But it should show on or the other if DSD is really getting through. Or, sometimes the DAC justs says DSD. Audio Path is probably the best way to know what is being sent.

You need bitstreaming off, exclusive mode set. If it still does not work, tell us what Audio Path is saying.

[Rossputin]

Does the "exclusive" setting apply to ASIO, or only WASAPI?

If it's doing DoP and DAC shows 352kHz rather than 2.8MHz, would there be a difference in audio quality?

[Awesome Donkey]

Does the "exclusive" setting apply to ASIO, or only WASAPI?

WASAPI. Exclusive means it bypasses the Windows mixer because the device has exclusive access. It also means while you're playing something (with WASAPI exclusive enabled) you won't hear system sounds or anything like that. ASIO, by default, always bypasses the Windows mixer so in that way it's always exclusive.

Again, screenshots of your settings would help see what's going on.

[dtc]

If it is 2.8 MHz DSD then it would do DoP at 176 Khz. If your DAC says 352KHz the MC is converting the 2.8 MHz DSD to PCM. 

Whether 352 KHz PCM sounds better than 2.8 MHz DSD depend on the DAC, the rest of your equipment and your ears.

[Rossputin]

I'll work on this later, but at one point I definitely had settings that showed 176kHz instead of 352kHz.  Is one typically better than the other? Is the bigger number typically the better one by default?

[dtc]

For 2.8 MHz, 176 KHz means that MC is sending DoP so the DAC gets actual DSD.  For 2.8 MHz,  352 KHz means MC is converting to PCM. You have a DSD DAC, so you should listen to it playing DSD and compare that to the file converted to PCM.

DoP will be sent at 1/16 of the original DSD sample rate.  PCM will be at 1/8 of the DSD sample frequency.

DoP

2.8 MHz   -->   176 KHz
5.6 MHz   -->   352 KHz
11.2 MHz -->   705 KHz

Conversion to PCM (by default)

2.8 MHz   -->   352 KHz
5.6 MHz   -->   705 KHz
11.2 MHz -->  1410 KHz  -  will no play on your DAC

[dtc]

According to the XMOS website, the XMOS driver supports DoP but not native DSD transmission. You need the customized Thesycon driver to support native DSD transmission.

[Rossputin]

Attached PDF shows settings I'm starting with.  They cause 2.8MHz DSF file to play as 352.8kHz with path saying 352.8kHz in and out, though 64-bit in and 32-bit out.

When I turn on DoP but leave bitstream setting off, result is exactly the same as above.

When I turn on bitstream without DoP, and play a song, I see volume drop to nearly zero on top left of MC (under rewind and pause controls), DAC shows 2.8MHz, and I get loud white noise. Path says 2.8Mhz 1-bit 2ch in and out.  When I hit stop, volume looks like it comes back up in MC.

When I leave bitstream on and turn on DoP in device settings, DAC shows 176kHz but volume drops in MC display as with before and I only have silence.

In both cases with bitstream on, i seem unable to adjust the volume.

Also, I found that if I go from bistream with DoP to bitstream without DoP, the latter gives me silence whereas if I go from no bitstream (where I can actually hear the music) to bitstream without DoP I get white noise. But if I go from no bitstream to bitstream with DoP, I get silence.

Have I confused you enough yet?   

[Rossputin]

Finally (maybe), with Bitstream and DoP on, if I turn the volume way up on the DAC's headphone amp, I can hear the music faintly behind a lot of white noise.

[Hendrik]

Volume control being unavailable in MC with any sort of bitstreaming is expected. It has to pass the audio entirely untouched to the DAC, that means no DSP of any sort, including Volume changes.

[RD James]

Volume control being unavailable in MC with any sort of bitstreaming is expected. It has to pass the audio entirely untouched to the DAC, that means no DSP of any sort, including Volume changes.

Just a reminder for people that Media Center does not automatically do this with ASIO outputs, only WASAPI.
It locks out volume control in Media Center, but assumes that ASIO will bypass the system volume level - which is not the case for many DACs.
WASAPI has a "Maximize device volume during playback" option, but this option is missing from ASIO.
 

Finally (maybe), with Bitstream and DoP on, if I turn the volume way up on the DAC's headphone amp, I can hear the music faintly behind a lot of white noise.

Check that Windows' volume control is set to 100% on your DAC when bitstreaming DSD.
I don't know what mode you have Media Center's volume control in, but if it's set to the system volume, your screenshot shows it at maybe 80% when playing PCM.
Since Media Center does not set the system volume level to 100% when bitstreaming via ASIO, this could be breaking DSD bitstreaming with your DAC.

[Rossputin]

RD James: You're a genius! Indeed, changing system volume to 100% fixed the problem. 

Now ASIO (and WASAPI, but I'm sticking with ASIO) work and the DAC shows 2.8224MHz and DSD as the input without using DoP! (It also works with DoP but I'm not using it.)

Guess this little DAC really does have native DSD processing as they promised.

I wish the support were easier to get from SMSL but I got this thing on sale from Shenzen Audio for $369 and I think it's going to be a fantastic DAC which I'm going to use as the intermediate piece between the computer and a Bottlehead Crack headphone amp which I'll soon get and build.

Anyway, thank you VERY much for the idea about setting the volume at 100% in the system.

[RD James]

I'm glad to hear that fixed it.
Hopefully the JRiver team will consider adding a "Maximize device volume during playback" option for ASIO.
Automatically maximizing the volume when bitstreaming might be a good idea too.

[dtc]

Hopefully the JRiver team will consider adding a "Maximize device volume during playback" option for ASIO.
Automatically maximizing the volume when bitstreaming might be a good idea too.

Totally agree. As I remember there is one vendor who has a specialized driver that picks up volume changes and passes them on to the DAC. On many other DACs volume changes simply ruin the sound. The default for DSD Bitstreaming should be to maximize the volume, with an option to disable that for the special occassion.  There have been multiple users who have been caught by this problem.

[Hendrik]

As far as I can tell, ASIO has no function to control the device volume.

[dtc]

As far as I can tell, ASIO has no function to control the device volume.

I think the issue is that MC can try to change the volume, thus making the DSD stream unusable. MC should not try to change the volume for a DSD stream, native or DoP.

As I remember there was one vendor who had a driver that would take the volume changes and pass them on to the DAC so the DAC could make the changes. I think that is why volume was not disabled within MC. Since that is a very rare case, and might not even being done anymore, it seems like, by default, turning bitstreaming on for DSD should disable any volume settings.

[DJLegba]

I think the issue is that MC can try to change the volume, thus making the DSD stream unusable. MC should not try to change the volume for a DSD stream, native or DoP.

As I remember there was one vendor who had a driver that would take the volume changes and pass them on to the DAC so the DAC could make the changes. I think that is why volume was not disabled within MC. Since that is a very rare case, and might not even being done anymore, it seems like, by default, turning bitstreaming on for DSD should disable any volume settings.

exaSound has a plugin that lets MC control the volume, even when bitstreaming DSD (to an exaSound DAC).

[dtc]

exaSound has a plugin that lets MC control the volume, even when bitstreaming DSD (to an exaSound DAC).

Thanks - that is the one. As far as I know, that is the only one. That option should certainly still be available, but it should, imo, not be the default setting.

[dtc]

Here's a discussion of this issue from more than a year ago. It would be nice to have a solution to this problem. It is certainly not intuitive for someone setting up a DSD DAC.

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,103427.msg718715.html#msg718715

[dtc]

As far as I can tell, ASIO has no function to control the device volume.

Hendrik - I do not know exactly what is happening, but it seems that some DACS do not work properly with DSD when the volume level is not set to 100%.  Setting it to 100% by default and not allowing changes would stop this problem. A option to allow changing volume should be allowed for those few DACs that can do it. Not being at 100% seems to cause problems for people hooking up their USB DACS with ASIO or with WASAPI.  Hopefully, you can take a look at it

[RD James]

As far as I can tell, ASIO has no function to control the device volume.

The ASIO settings in Media Center has a "Volume Device" section, and System Volume control works correctly via ASIO when playing PCM.
I do have to select the correct device manually with my DAC though. 'Automatic' seemed to adjust the volume level of the default system device. (which is not always my DAC)
 
There are two issues here really:
One is an ASIO-specific problem, and the other is a bitstreaming problem.

The first issue is that ASIO lacks the "maximize device volume during playback option" that WASAPI has.
If my DAC is set to 80% volume in Windows, bitstreaming breaks because my DAC's ASIO driver, like many DACs, does not bypass the system volume level.
If Media Center had an option to set the device volume to 100% automatically when playback starts, like it does with WASAPI, it would fix bitstreaming via ASIO.
 
The second issue is more of a general usability issue, which is that bitstreaming should always set the device volume to 100% whether that option is selected or not.
There are reasons why someone may not always want playback to maximize the device volume, but bitstreaming requires it.

[DJLegba]

The second issue is more of a general usability issue, which is that bitstreaming should always set the device volume to 100% whether that option is selected or not.
There are reasons why someone may not always want playback to maximize the device volume, but bitstreaming requires it.

This would be a disaster for me, unless the exaSound plugin could manage to override it.

[dtc]

This would be a disaster for me, unless the exaSound plugin could manage to override it.

There should be an option to override 100% volume for ASIO, just like there is for WASAPI.

[RD James]

This would be a disaster for me, unless the exaSound plugin could manage to override it.

I would expect the "enable volume when bitstreaming" option to bypass this, since you are explicitly telling Media Center that the device volume does not have to be set to 100%.
For all other devices, bitstreaming should set the system volume to 100% automatically.
But first, the option to set system volume to 100% at the start of playback has to exist for ASIO at all.

[Rossputin]

Hello again, everyone...

Things mostly great here with MC, DSD, etc.

One question for you: When I play files with bitrate 5.644MHz, they play at half that rate (2.822MHz).

[Update: I found some DFF files with bitrate showing 11.289MHz, and they play at 5.644 MHz (e.g. also at half of the apparent bitrate.)]

Is that normal?

I just noticed that when I started one such song, the DAC actually showed 5.644MHz for a moment before switching to 2.822MHz.

Audio Path says "DSD 2.8MHz 1bit 2ch from source format DSF" so I think any issues are within MC rather than at DAC. (DAC driver also says its input is the 2.82MHz)

Thanks for any insights!

Best,
Ross in Colorado

[dtc]

Glad DSD is working for you.

Bitrate for DSD shows as twice the sample rate because there are 2 channels. So, a 5.6 MHz sample rate gives a bitrate of 11.2.  Your DAC is showing the sample rate, which is the normal measurement people use for DSD recordings.

[Rossputin]

Very interesting re sample rate. So is that just for DSD? When I show the sample rate column, it is indeed the same as what shows up in the DAC, and it's half the bitrate. But for FLAC, the sample rate and bitrate seem unlrelated to each other.

[dtc]

FLAC files are compressed but DSD are not.  For compressed files, the bitrate depends on the compression.  For DSD and WAV files the bitrate and sample rates are directly related since there is no compression,

For a Redbook wav files, you will see a constant bitrate of 1,411 kbits/sec - 44,100x16x2.  But when you compress it you get a variable bitrate.  The higher the compression the lower the bit rate. The value in the tags is basically an average. For FLAC files, the bitrate is mostly a statement about the compress-ability of the original file.

[Rossputin]

OK, I know I'm getting into a slightly different topic than my original DSD question, but one last one: Re FLAC, how can a file be compressed and still lossless, and if it can be then why isn't more compression better (to save disk space, as long as it's still lossless)? Or is "lossless" really a misnomer? And if so, what does it mean with FLAC files (which is the form that most of my music is in)?