Topic: Play file from Server to Client - How does MC work? (Read 5791 times)

Manfred · « **on:** January 07, 2018, 06:03:39 am »

Does MC work in this way:

Play a mediafile from the Server to the Client: e.g. if the metadata show that the bitrate to play the video is 38 Mbit/s; MC plays the file from the server but consumes as much network bandwidth and system ressource on the server as it could get. For hard wired 1 Gbit LAN this is then 1 Gbit and on the client side it tries to buffer the data and then play the video on the client side with the correct bitrate.

Is this correct or do I have some misunderstanding or is my MC media network not correct configured?

JimH · « **Reply #1 on:** January 07, 2018, 06:12:05 am »

MC on the server will convert, according to the settings for the DLNA Server there.

MC on the server requests data and buffers it as needed.

jmone · « **Reply #2 on:** January 07, 2018, 06:17:28 am »

...also, if your client is another MC instance sharing the Library and has direct access to the files it will access them and play them directly (eg the Media Server will not transcode them)

Manfred · « **Reply #3 on:** January 07, 2018, 08:53:12 am »

Thanks - but the server floods my client with 1 GBbit/s streaming activity storing the file to the buffer on disk and reading it then with the correct bitrate, but is stuttering because there is 100% ssd & network (1Gbit LAN activity; intel m2.ssd pcie x4 interface)

The other way round - if I click play on my client and the client receives the file from the server everything is fine.

bob · « **Reply #4 on:** January 09, 2018, 03:57:17 pm »

Quote from: Manfred on January 07, 2018, 08:53:12 am

Thanks - but the server floods my client with 1 GBbit/s streaming activity storing the file to the buffer on disk and reading it then with the correct bitrate, but is stuttering because there is 100% ssd & network (1Gbit LAN activity; intel m2.ssd pcie x4 interface)

The other way round - if I click play on my client and the client receives the file from the server everything is fine.

On the client:
Tools->Options->Media Network->Advanced
try checking the option Disable audio buffer to disk (for low powered systems).

And see if that makes a difference.

RoderickGI · « **Reply #5 on:** January 09, 2018, 09:20:55 pm »

If you still wanted the Client to buffer, but not so fast, then you could look at using something like NetLimiter or similar.

While aimed at internet traffic, I'm pretty sure both the Pro and Lite versions of NetLimiter can be set to limit the transfer speed of any application. There appears to be a free download version. Probably a demo, but the download is currently failing for me. So set MC on your server to something less than 1Gbps, and see if that fixes the issue.

Note: No affiliation. I used to use an earlier version. Haven't used it for a while. As above, there could be free or cheaper products that do the same thing. Using NetLimiter may break MC, if MC doesn't like being throttled.

Manfred · « **Reply #6 on:** January 10, 2018, 12:04:47 pm »

Quote

Tools->Options->Media Network->Advanced
try checking the option Disable audio buffer to disk (for low powered systems).

-> That makes the system even more unusable.

Quote

If you still wanted the Client to buffer, but not so fast, then you could look at using something like NetLimiter or similar.

I don't want to buffer but the system does and the buffering lead to stuttering video.

Maybe I expected something wrong?

If have a video on the server with a bitrate of say 40 Mbit/s and I play the video from the server to the client I expected a video stream from the server to the client with that bitrate. But MC seem to work different to my expectation ? it pushes the file as fast as possible to the client with 1 GBit/sec but the client has to buffer it because the client wants to play the video with 40 Mbit/s. But because the client receives the information with 1 Gbit/s he writes it to disk and MC reads the buffer and then play the stuttering video. Or to say it simple the client with (i3,m.2 ssd) is to slow for the server.
I am really puzzled.

JimH · « **Reply #7 on:** January 10, 2018, 02:09:36 pm »

Stuttering can be caused by antivirus software.

For other possibilities, please read this thread:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,24031.0.html

RoderickGI · « **Reply #8 on:** January 10, 2018, 04:37:46 pm »

Why wouldn't you want Buffering? It is a mechanism used to ensure smooth playback of media. The term has been misused when referring to buffering when using the internet which results in pauses and stuttering of video, but what people should really be saying is that the internet couldn't keep the buffer full, so they saw pauses in the video. Buffering is good. Using the whole buffer, or emptying it, is bad.

BTW Bob mentioned the Audio Buffer above but I'm sure you tried turning off the Video Buffer. That should stop the saturation of the network connection and the heavy disk activity, but I'm not sure it will stop the stuttering of the video. Was it the Video Buffer that you disabled?

Netlimiter is a way to stop the network saturation you are seeing, which is why I suggested it. But I wouldn't buy the software unless you can confirm that is the cause of the problem you are seeing.

A 40Mbit/s video file would be a Blu-ray movie, which an i3 should be able to play. But if the MC Server is trying to send it all at once, that could be 50GB of data. MC uses the Temporary Files location ( Options > File Location > Program Files > Temporary Files ) to store buffered video. Does that point to your m.2 SSD, and does it have 50 to 75 GB of free space? If not, maybe the SSD is being filled and interfering with the whole playback process. That might explain;

Quote from: Manfred on January 07, 2018, 08:53:12 am

The other way round - if I click play on my client and the client receives the file from the server everything is fine.

Where the MC Server tries to push the whole file to the Client, which then tries to buffer the video, if the MC Client pulls the video from the Server I would guess either the Client is aware of how much space it has available for buffering, or it just pulls the video as required rather than try to pull the whole thing.

Does that sound right Bob?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually, how are you pushing a video from the MC Server to the Client?

I don't usually have Media Network turned on in my MC Client. That still allows me to pull media from the Server and play it on the Client. But I can't push video from the Server to the Client, even when the Client is connected to the Server. The Client isn't visible as a target on the Server.

If I turn on Media Network on Client I am able to push a video from the Server to the Client using the MC Server interface. That isn't using DLNA. I tested this using a full Blu-ray folder structure rip on the server, which means that I have to have the Client set to convert Video to H264-TS 1080p as MC won't play my Blu-ray folder structure rips to a Client without conversion. I would need to convert the Blu-ray to MKV or something to show the original video and audio on the Client. I guess you are playing MKV or similar files to be expecting a 40Mbps network load?

With that setup I see a network load of about 8Mbps for a Blu-ray (Big Hero 6, Bitrate 40.5Mbps, total Blu-ray disc size ~40GB), and I see buffering in the Temporary File location on my Client, with 128MB files accumulating as the video plays, to a total of 3.86GB, which is consistent with an H264 movie.

In fact, as an experiment I used my MC Client user interface to push a video, which has been served from the Server the Client is connected to, back to the Server and have it play there. That works, but I see an audio synchronisation issue then, since the video is going Server->Client->Server. Just an interesting aside.

Anyway, that brings me back to your original question: Is my MC media network not correctly configured?

That depends on how you are trying to use MC.
Are you playing full Blu-ray rips in MKV format to the Client?
Do you need to push video from a Server to a Client? (Which is giving problems.) That seems to require Media Network to be turned on in the Client.
Do you have a Client connected to a Server, so that you could always pull video to the Client? (Which you know works fine.) That doesn't require Media Network to be turned on in the Client.

Perhaps summarise how your Media Centre installations and TVs are set up and connected, and how you are expecting to use them.

bob · « **Reply #9 on:** January 11, 2018, 09:54:59 am »

When the buffering is enabled (the default) the file being read is spooled to disk and played back from that spool as it's being downloaded.
Buffering should normally be enabled unless you are using slow primary storage (or running off of a sdcard).
When you disable buffering, the file is pulled on an as needed basis.
The reason I asked you to try this is that it would be expected to drop the transfer rate.

Also as Roderick stated, you should turn off video buffering to test this. Audio only files and video files are the intention of those 2 switches.

Finally, what Operating System are you running the MC client on?

Manfred · « **Reply #10 on:** January 11, 2018, 11:34:49 am »

Thanks for all your help!!!: JimH, RoderickGI, bob.

I will work on the weekend on the topic.

Manfred · « **Reply #11 on:** January 13, 2018, 05:26:54 am »

Quote

( Options > File Location > Program Files > Temporary Files ) to store buffered video. Does that point to your m.2 SSD, and does it have 50 to 75 GB of free space?

- Yes - it points to the ssd
- Yes - 80 GB free space

Quote

I guess you are playing MKV or similar files to be expecting a 40Mbps network load?

- Yes

Quote

Perhaps summarise how your Media Centre installations and TVs are set up and connected, and how you are expecting to use them.

My MediaNetwork:see attachment (Currently my D220 is in Paris to get the core infinity board)

What do I expect in the future - that is why I am testing now (in the past the player was the HTPC and I had a 7 year old NAS which is gone now and I had only a few BD rips in the past):

- Play Audio from the server to the Core Infinity Board (UpnP Renderer) with two different DSP settings:Loudspeaker; Headphone including Audeze-Reval-Plugin
- Play Video through DLNA or by controlling directly the video player either with two different DSP settings:Loudspeaker; Headphone
- Use only one View in JRemote ( I would not like to switch every time between the server and the HTPC(Videoplayer) in JRemote)

Example of behaviour - pushing the video from the server to PC or HTPC:
I have to targets: A PC and a HTPC: Playing a 38 GB BD mkv rip with Bitrate 37977 (LS Field)

On PC: MC Server (physical server) ->Switch->Repeaters(theoretically transferrate is 1300 Mbit/s reality < 350 Mbit/s)->Router->PC->Monitor | with PC having JRMark 3308
we have the following numbers: CPU: <11%; RAM ~4GB; SSD (Samsung): 30,6 MB/s write; Eth: Send:2.5 Mbit/s, Read: 133 Mbit/s; GTX 1070: 28% | smooth video play no problems

On HTPC: MC Server (physical server) ->Switch->HTCP->OLED TV | with HTPC having JRMark 4403
we have the following numbers: CPU: <50%; RAM ~3GB; m.2SSD (intel): 120 MB/s write 100%; Eth: Send:16 Mbit/s, Read: up to 970 Mbit/s; GTX 960: 56% | here is the problem

RoderickGI · « **Reply #12 on:** January 13, 2018, 04:37:11 pm »

Well, I still don't know why your network connection gets flooded at 1Gbps, but the first thing I noticed is that you don't have a lot of memory in those Windows 10 computers. But maybe you made a mistake writing your post, as the pdf you provided shows 8GB in the Video Renderer, which seems to be what you are calling the HTPC, while you listed 3GB above. Or does the 3GB refer to memory usage?

The pdf also lists 2x Kingston DDR2400 ECC RAM for the MC Server, but above you say 4GB, which also doesn't seem right. I would also recommend 8GB of memory minimum for any Windows 10 installation.

But anyway, if you only have 3GB in your HTPC running Windows 10 Anniversary Edition, what is your memory usage like on that?

I would think it would be very high when receiving streamed video, caching to the SSD, and playing the video. If so, it is possible (not probable though) that there would be some networking issues, which were resulting in lots of resends of packets, which would explain the network connection being flooded. Sure, Windows 10 should ensure there was no problem, but a weak network card or driver may lead to a problem. Do you have the latest/best drivers for the network card/motherboard NIC? You may need to get Wireshark or something similar to see if you can determine what is happening in that network segment. You would be looking for lots of dropped packets and resends.

If turning the Buffer off on the Client, as per;

Quote from: Manfred on January 10, 2018, 12:04:47 pm

-> That makes the system even more unusable.

Then that would imply, to me, that the network is not capable of smoothly providing a video stream to the HTPC, when the video stream is being pushed to it. But it can pull a video stream without issues, as per;

Quote from: Manfred on January 07, 2018, 08:53:12 am

The other way round - if I click play on my client and the client receives the file from the server everything is fine.

-------------------------

In terms of operation, do you connect JRemote to the HTPC or the Media Server, normally?

In the discussion above, when you say the video works when you "click play on my client", are you using a mouse connected to your HTPC to do that, or using JRemote?

While you must have Media Network turned on in the Media Server, could you confirm that you also have Media Network turned on in the HTPC?

Manfred · « **Reply #13 on:** January 14, 2018, 04:41:24 am »

Quote

The pdf also lists 2x Kingston DDR2400 ECC RAM for the MC Server, but above you say 4GB, which also doesn't seem right.

- The 4GB RAM are the amount of Memory used as shown in Windows Task Manager. The pdf shows the installed RAM. So 8 GB HTPC; 16 GB for the Server.

Quote

Do you have the latest/best drivers for the network card/motherboard NIC

- Yes

Quote

In terms of operation, do you connect JRemote to the HTPC or the Media Server, normally?

- Currently to the HTPC

Quote

In the discussion above, when you say the video works when you "click play on my client", are you using a mouse connected to your HTPC to do that, or using JRemote?

- JRemote

Quote

While you must have Media Network turned on in the Media Server, could you confirm that you also have Media Network turned on in the HTPC?

- Yes

RoderickGI · « **Reply #14 on:** January 14, 2018, 05:01:09 pm »

Okay, thanks for the clarification. Now do you mind if I restate your issue?

You have a MC Server with Media Network turned on.
You have a MC Client (HTPC) with Media Network turned on.

You use JRemote to control movies played to the HTPC.

1. When you connect JRemote to the HTPC and select a movie to play on the HTPC, it works fine.

2. When you connect JRemote to the MC Server and select a movie to play on the HTPC, the MC Server tries to send the whole media file as fast as possible to the HTPC, which floods the 1Gbps ethernet connection, buffers the whole file on the HTPC loading both the SSD and Network at 100%, which causes the video to stutter.

I'm not sure of the intended way to use JRemote with a separate MC Server and Client, and I don't use JRemote so can't comment really. So JRiver/Bob, should the above work without flooding the network and SSD, or should there be some reasonable throttling of network usage between the Server and Client?

With the existing functionality you already have a solution to the problem: Always connect JRemote to the HTPC. Is that acceptable?

If not for some reason, I would try two alternatives.
A. Turn off Media Network on the MC Client (HTPC). Connect JRemote to the MC Server. Can you still direct the video file to the HTPC? (I don't know.) If you can, does this work without stuttering?

B. Do as Jmone suggested and set up the MC Client and MC Server to either use the same mapped drive letter for locations where media files are stored, or use only URIs (Network addresses in the MC Library i.e. //Server/Movies) so that the Client can see the media files directly, and then turn on this setting on the Client "Options > Media Network > Client Options (when connected to a library Server) > Play local file if one that matches Library Server file is found". With Media Network still turned on for both the HTPC and the MC Server, you can still connect to either using JRemote. Video playback will almost definitely work if JRemote is connected to the HTPC, and may work without stuttering if JRemote is connected to the MC Server.

Otherwise this issue is firmly in JRiver's hands, because I don't know any more ways to fix it, other than my early suggestion:
C. Install Netlimiter on the MC Server and restrict the bandwidth that MC can use to stream media files to Client devices.

Manfred · « **Reply #15 on:** January 15, 2018, 02:49:21 pm »

Thanks for your response.

What works:

Quote

B. Do as Jmone suggested and set up the MC Client and MC Server to either use the same mapped drive letter for locations where media files are stored, or use only URIs (Network addresses in the MC Library i.e. //Server/Movies) so that the Client can see the media files directly, and then turn on this setting on the Client "Options > Media Network > Client Options (when connected to a library Server) > Play local file if one that matches Library Server file is found". With Media Network still turned on for both the HTPC and the MC Server, you can still connect to either using JRemote. Video playback will almost definitely work if JRemote is connected to the HTPC,

This in my numbering 1.
1. Server (Media Network enabled; DLNA Server)->HTPC (Media Network enabled; LS client of Server LS)->control HTPC through JRemote, play video
2. Server (Media Network enabled; DLNA Server)-> PC (Media Network enabled; LS client of Server LS)->control Server through JRemote, play video | PC is in a diffrent room and the two AVM 1750E in my network are limted < 300 Mbit/s PC wwas not shown in the pdf I provided
3. Server (Media Network enabled; DLNA Server)-> TV ->control Server through JRemote, play video (LG TV has only 100 Mbit Network) [I don't want this scenario it plays only videos with 16 bit audio and the soundquality by routing the audio stream through the TV with optical connection to Devialet is not fas as good as through Devialet AIR from HTPC->Devialet]

What does not work:
4. Server (Media Network enabled; DLNA Server)-> HTPC (Media Network enabled; LS client of Server LS)->control Server through JRemote, play video from server and push it to the HTPC | Network utilization ~100%, SSD utilization~100%
5.

Quote

A. Turn off Media Network on the MC Client (HTPC). Connect JRemote to the MC Server. Can you still direct the video file to the HTPC? (I don't know.) If you can, does this work without stuttering?

-> this does not work, JRemote and the server can not see the zone on the HTPC if Media Network is disabled
6.

Quote

and may work without stuttering if JRemote is connected to the MC Server.

-> this also leads to Network utilization ~100%, SSD utilization~100%

RoderickGI · « **Reply #16 on:** January 15, 2018, 06:44:10 pm »

Quote from: Manfred on January 15, 2018, 02:49:21 pm

2. Server (Media Network enabled; DLNA Server)-> PC (Media Network enabled; LS client of Server LS)->control Server through JRemote, play video | PC is in a diffrent room and the two AVM 1750E in my network are limted < 300 Mbit/s PC wwas not shown in the pdf I provided

Does the network connection via the two AVM 1750E get maxed out to 350Mbit/sec when using that setup? i.e. Controlling the Server using JRemote.

If not, there is something different about the HTPC and the PC in this case. What could that difference be? Obviously the network components are different, but the network control must also be different, if the HTPC is allowing 100% utilisation and the PC is not.

But 350Mbit/sec isn't going to saturate an SSD, even considering that if the video file is being buffered, MC is both writing the buffer and reading the files for playback, so the PC/HTPC is handling double the bandwidth that the network is providing.

But 1Gbit/sec on your HTPC also shouldn't saturate your SSD, which is capable of a Sequential Read (up to) 770 MB/s and Sequential Write (up to) 450 MB/s. The SSD should be able to write and read back the 1Gbit/sec (~125MB/s) data stream without issue. So I wonder why the SSD is showing 100% utilisation?

Looking back at your earlier post:

Quote from: Manfred on January 13, 2018, 05:26:54 am

- Yes - it points to the ssd
- Yes - 80 GB free space
- Yes

My MediaNetwork:see attachment (Currently my D220 is in Paris to get the core infinity board)

What do I expect in the future - that is why I am testing now (in the past the player was the HTPC and I had a 7 year old NAS which is gone now and I had only a few BD rips in the past):

- Play Audio from the server to the Core Infinity Board (UpnP Renderer) with two different DSP settings:Loudspeaker; Headphone including Audeze-Reval-Plugin
- Play Video through DLNA or by controlling directly the video player either with two different DSP settings:Loudspeaker; Headphone
- Use only one View in JRemote ( I would not like to switch every time between the server and the HTPC(Videoplayer) in JRemote)

Example of behaviour - pushing the video from the server to PC or HTPC:
I have to targets: A PC and a HTPC: Playing a 38 GB BD mkv rip with Bitrate 37977 (LS Field)

On PC: MC Server (physical server) ->Switch->Repeaters(theoretically transferrate is 1300 Mbit/s reality < 350 Mbit/s)->Router->PC->Monitor | with PC having JRMark 3308
we have the following numbers: CPU: <11%; RAM ~4GB; SSD (Samsung): 30,6 MB/s write; Eth: Send:2.5 Mbit/s, Read: 133 Mbit/s; GTX 1070: 28% | smooth video play no problems

On HTPC: MC Server (physical server) ->Switch->HTCP->OLED TV | with HTPC having JRMark 4403
we have the following numbers: CPU: <50%; RAM ~3GB; m.2SSD (intel): 120 MB/s write 100%; Eth: Send:16 Mbit/s, Read: up to 970 Mbit/s; GTX 960: 56% | here is the problem

Why have you shown that the SSD is 100% utilised if it is only writing 120MB/s. It is capable, theoretically, of 450MB/s, and should have a real life performance of at least 250 to 300MB/s.
The CPU load on the HTPC is a bit high. Why? What is creating that load? All MC, or is there something else?

Do you have a virus scanner on the HTPC, and is it set to check incoming buffer files? If so that would add more load onto the SSD. But still, I think it could handle that load without showing 100% utilisation.

Have you checked the SSD for health? Maybe it is having some problems, and having to write/rewrite/try again parts of the buffer files, and maybe if there is a problem the HTPC is requesting the files again from the server, which then shows up as 100% network utilisation?

Remember, in your scenario 1 above the HTPC doesn't have to buffer the video stream, so the problem doesn't show up with that setup. The HTPC just pulls what is needs, as it needs it, instead of having to accept whatever the Server pushes to it, and hence buffer what isn't required for playback yet. Also remember that in scenario 4 the whole video file is buffered to your SSD, not just the piece currently being played. The buffer is deleted when playback is stopped, I think. You said that the SSD has 80GB free space, which is more than enough for the 38GB MKV file you are playing. But is all that free space available to use?

Basically, if the PC has a lower benchmark score and appears to be lower powered, but works fine in your scenario 2 above, then it should work fine on the HTPC in scenario 4. The same setup as your scenario 2 worked fine on my Server/Client using a 1GB/s Ethernet connection, although I don't have JRemote so couldn't check that part. But I can send video from the Server to the Client, with buffering, and only see a small network and hard drive load.

I'm thinking something is wrong with the SSD on your HTPC.

Manfred · « **Reply #17 on:** January 16, 2018, 12:39:28 pm »

Quote

Does the network connection via the two AVM 1750E get maxed out to 350Mbit/sec when using that setup?

-No | 180 Mbit/s

- I checked the SSD with intels ssd toolbox -> seems to be every think ok.
- I run also an ssd benchmark tool -> seems to be every think ok -> see attached file

I think I identified the Problem: I deactivated both Windows Firewall and Windows Antivirus in Windows Defender on the HTPC-> In a relative short time MC buffered the mkv to the ssd and then playback was smooth.

What functionality in the Windows AV & Firewall System leads to the problem needs further investigation from my side. I have to compare PC and HTPC configurations. Not this week anymore.

Thank you very much for your help! I really appreciate that.

RoderickGI · « **Reply #18 on:** January 16, 2018, 04:25:42 pm »

You're welcome, and excellent.

It looks like you have narrowed the problem down to security software all right. Let us know when you work out the final solution, as it will help others.

Manfred · « **Reply #19 on:** January 16, 2018, 04:59:02 pm »

In the exclusion List in Windows defender on the HTPC I forgot to change 22 to 23 after upgrating to mc 23. I will test next week.

Manfred · « **Reply #20 on:** January 18, 2018, 12:18:25 pm »

I have tested it again. The inconsistency in the AV exclusion list over PC, Server, and HTPC helps only to reduce CPU utilization but not that SSD is to 100% utilized as well as network is 100% utilized.

So the original problem remains.

RoderickGI · « **Reply #21 on:** January 18, 2018, 03:55:21 pm »

Quote from: Manfred on January 18, 2018, 12:18:25 pm

So the original problem remains.

Well, the high utilisations remain. Does the stuttering still happen?

If so, does it continue once the whole video file has been buffered to the HTPC?

RoderickGI · « **Reply #22 on:** January 18, 2018, 07:06:18 pm »

Manfred, could you confirm precisely which version of MC you are using? I'm using MC23.0.94 at the moment.

Also, what do you have set at "Options > Audio > Settings > Memory Playback"?

Quote

23.0.61 (9/19/2017)
5. Fixed: Album memory playback would load videos into memory instead of only loading audio files.

Manfred · « **Reply #23 on:** January 19, 2018, 02:15:42 pm »

-23.0.94 64 bit
- Load decoded File into Memory

RoderickGI · « **Reply #24 on:** January 19, 2018, 02:44:35 pm »

Okay, it shouldn't have any effect on video in the version you are running, but I'm wondering what would happen if you turned Memory Playback off, on the Server and HTPC. Maybe the JRiver team missed some combination of conditions and this is still coming into play. Although your memory usage doesn't indicate that. I'm running out of ideas here!

Also, you didn't say, since fixing Windows Defender Network and SSD utilisation is still high, but does the stuttering still happen?

Manfred · « **Reply #25 on:** January 21, 2018, 09:20:41 am »

I have tested it with memory playback off but no difference.

My current thinking is:

For AUDIO I will use Devialet AIR instead of DLNA as described in my other thread:

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,114081.0.html

For Video I am not 100% clear but given the problems by pushing files from the server to the client I would currently prefer to use the MC Client Server Concept and use MC as a client to the library on the server. This simple works.

The only disadvantage is in JRemote one must switch between the server and the client for playing audio or Video/Images. Or can one link them together as one zone?

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: Play file from Server to Client - How does MC work? (Read 5791 times)