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[Lefisu63]

What does the subtitles option Null really mean?

I've searched around but ...

I just play BR disc Iron Man 1 at 0h30m in German Audio .. then they speak an arabic language (or whatever). I always see German subtitles - regardless if set to "Off" (should display forced subtitles?) or "Null" (should really show no subtitles?) - incl. re-started MC 24.0.50.

So what is the difference? Someone from the developers can explain please?

I'm sure there is a better name for this menu option.

[Hendrik]

Null means absolutely no subtitles, while Off will still allow "forced" subtitles for foreign languages, if the movie has those. If you still see some with "Null", then they are likely baked right into the video itself.

[millst]

I'm sure there is a better name for this menu option.

Agreed, I've requested this before.

-tm

[CountryBumkin]

Yeah, Maybe OFF should be "Forced Only", and "Null" should be renamed "OFF" or "None".

[wer]

CountryBumkin is 100% right.

Moreover, when I import a new, not played before, movie (spoken English, with forced English subtitles for foreign-language bits), MC seems to default to NULL. 

It seems to me a better default would be "Forced Only".

[JimH]

Changes like these, though probably a good idea, are a problem for us because they break all of the translation files.  So we don't do them unless there's a very good reason.

[~OHM~]

Changes like these, though probably a good idea, are a problem for us because they break all of the translation files.  So we don't do them unless there's a very good reason.

Good Point! and good to know. thanks Jim

[RoderickGI]

MC seems to default to NULL. 

That is probably a result of the "Options > Video > Subtitles & Language > Subtitle mode" setting. If you have selected "Do not show subtitles" I think it might default to NULL on first play. I use "Show subtitles only if selected language is different from audio language" and forced subtitles show by default.

But it depends a lot on the source, and how subtitles are provided. The forced subtitles need to have the language properly defined, and in my case a lot of movies just have srt files inlcuding only the foreign language parts anyway. So YMMV.

[wer]

I have the option set the same as you.  The subtitles are embedded in the MKV.  The movie audio is tagged eng because it is.  The forced subtitles are tagged eng because they are also in English.  They are also forced.

In that situation, VLC and MPC-HC both show the forced subs on first play.  MC defaults to null on first play, which is bad.

[wer]

Changes like these, though probably a good idea, are a problem for us because they break all of the translation files.  So we don't do them unless there's a very good reason.

Understandable due to the effort, but I think being "wrong" is a good reason.  If a switch is labeled off and doesn't actually turn things off but dims them instead, you would expect that to be fixed.  The off position does not turn subtitles off.  It's unfortunate it went into the interface and translation files that way, but just like a spelling mistake, it just doesn't seem to be correct. 

But there are bigger fish to fry, I get it...

[tij]

I have the option set the same as you.  The subtitles are embedded in the MKV.  The movie audio is tagged eng because it is.  The forced subtitles are tagged eng because they are also in English.  They are also forced.

In that situation, VLC and MPC-HC both show the forced subs on first play.  MC defaults to null on first play, which is bad.

I played with forced subtitles a lot ... when MC refers to force, they refer to PGS subtitles that have forced flags (internal to PGS) set ... force flag in MKV container is ignored

This is one of the reason i keep PGS subtitles and do not convert them to SRT

I remember discussing honoring force flags in MKV container ... think it was something to do with renderer (MadVR?) or splitter (LAV?) that defaults to this

PS. some blu rays do not tag their forced PGS subtitles internally ... it is not straight forward to set internal flags of PGS subtitles to force

i use MKVtoolnix to extract PGS subtitles from MKV in .sup: mkvextract.exe tracks "i:\title00.mkv" [track ID]:i:\title00.sup

then use BDSup2Sub 5.1.2 to set items in that track to force flag

then use MKVtoolnixGUI to remux edited subtitle track back to original MKV

[tij]

Yeah, Maybe OFF should be "Forced Only", and "Null" should be renamed "OFF" or "None".

IMHO what MC have now is logical … use of forced subtitles is supposed to be transparent to user (ie it should be shown regardless of what user selected … probably the reason NULL option in MC is dead last ... probably one of the reason some movie "burn" force subtitles to video … of course this "burning" in method is not so elegant if your language is not English, then you have "burn" English subtitles along with native force subtitles on screen … mess)

My family members are not tech savvy ... so dont know what force subtitle mean ... imagine they think they know english and set subtitles to OFF (cause they have no clue what Force Only means) ... then watch Avatar ...

If you are tech savvy ... aka power user ... then doesnt really matter what MC name those option

[wer]

Well, I can certainly believe that non-tech-savvy people might not know what forced only means.  You have a point there.

I'm technical, but I had to come search through these forums to learn that off means on, and null means off.  IMHO, that's not logical.

But I can guarantee one thing for certain about non-tech-savvy (and indeed most) people:
They think OFF means OFF.

[tij]

Well, I can certainly believe that non-tech-savvy people might not know what forced only means.  You have a point there.

I'm technical, but I had to come search through these forums to learn that off means on, and null means off.  IMHO, that's not logical.

But I can guarantee one thing for certain about non-tech-savvy (and indeed most) people:
They think OFF means OFF.

I am above average in tech stuff ... could not figure out by myself too the difference between off and null ... had to ask in this forum to find out ... so agree with you it is not obvious

But for non tech ... it is probably good idea that “OFF” still displays forced subtitles ... otherwise, they could be ruining their movie experience unintentionally (imagine my son thinks his English is good enough ... and “truly” OFF subtitles for Avatar ... then finds out he cannot understand what blue aliens talking about ... have to go turn right subtitle ON then rewind to see what he miss ... breaks his movie “experience” lol)

[RoderickGI]

They think OFF means OFF.

Yep, and then when they are watching a movie with subtitles off, and some dialogue is in another language, they are pleasantly surprised when subtitles pop up to tell them what was just said.

I've certainly watched movies on other equipment where the bad guys said something in German, and I was annoyed that there were no subtitles, only to find out later that there were subtitles, but someone had completely disabled them. The lack of subtitles made the movies harder to follow and spoiled it a bit, but I didn't feel like watching the whole thing again to get the bits I missed.

With subtitles, Off has always meant subtitles are off, unless there are forced subtitles in the movie. It is actually a standard used in the industry. That is why they are called "Forced"; they override the subtitles Off setting. At least in my experience.


EDIT: I see tij has said basically the same thing.

[wer]

If they're pleasantly surprised it's probably because they haven't had to go into any confusing menus to mess with anything and the software just automatically behaved as it should.  But what if they DO go into the menus?

You guys are arguing that MC should display forced subtitles by default.  I completely agree.  (As I posted, in my experience it doesn't always when it should.)

And it should display those forced subtitles up until the point the user explicitly says "I don't care, turn them off anyway!"  You seem to agree with that, and so do I.

Where we part company, it seems, is when you start arguing that the English language should be redefined for the users' protection.

Off means off.  If you don't like "Forced Only" then argue for "Automatic" or "Default" or "Only if necessary" or something else simple and descriptive.  But redefining the word Off to mean On is grossly counterintuitive and compels confusion.  It's the literal definition of perverse.

When has your wife said to you "Those subtitles are distracting!  Turn them null!" 

That's absurd.

Roderick I know you're extremely knowledgeable about MC and and I don't mean to sound like a cantankerous old man, but saying left means right or up means down or off means on is confusing to regular people.  We're only not confused anymore because we learned the hard way.  Must everyone also have to learn the hard way, just so changing the word Off to Automatic can be avoided?

Tell me that you truly believe that Off and Null are better for the user experience than all of the following:
Automatic and Off
Default and Off
Only if Needed and Off
Forced Subtitles Only and Off

Best wishes to all...

[tij]

If they're pleasantly surprised it's probably because they haven't had to go into any confusing menus to mess with anything and the software just automatically behaved as it should.  But what if they DO go into the menus?

You guys are arguing that MC should display forced subtitles by default.  I completely agree.  (As I posted, in my experience it doesn't always when it should.)

And it should display those forced subtitles up until the point the user explicitly says "I don't care, turn them off anyway!"  You seem to agree with that, and so do I.

Where we part company, it seems, is when you start arguing that the English language should be redefined for the users' protection.

Off means off.  If you don't like "Forced Only" then argue for "Automatic" or "Default" or "Only if necessary" or something else simple and descriptive.  But redefining the word Off to mean On is grossly counterintuitive and compels confusion.  It's the literal definition of perverse.

When has your wife said to you "Those subtitles are distracting!  Turn them null!" 

That's absurd.

Roderick I know you're extremely knowledgeable about MC and and I don't mean to sound like a cantankerous old man, but saying left means right or up means down or off means on is confusing to regular people.  We're only not confused anymore because we learned the hard way.  Must everyone also have to learn the hard way, just so changing the word Off to Automatic can be avoided?

Tell me that you truly believe that Off and Null are better for the user experience than all of the following:
Automatic and Off
Default and Off
Only if Needed and Off
Forced Subtitles Only and Off

Best wishes to all...

We all getting old and grumpy lol … personally I don't really mind any options as long as its understandable

Regarding forced subtitles not showing automatically (aka set to "OFF" in current implementation … not NULL) … I mentioned earlier that this works only with PGS subtitles that have internally set forced flags … MKV "forced" property is ignored (so SRT subtitles that are marked forced by MKV wont work … so are PGS subtitles marked by MKV as forced by internally not mark as such)

[wer]

tij, that might (or might not) explain what I have seen; I haven't taken apart all the streams to find out.  But I do think, as someone mentioned earlier, that it ought to respect the forced stream flag instead of ignoring it.

It seems to be a common practice to do it that way, with one sub track with everything (SDH) with nothing marked as forced, then a totally separate track with only the foreign subtitles.  The Marvel movies seem to do it that way.

Since it is my habit to rip everything to MKV for the last years, perhaps I run into that issue more than some people.  But I love MKV as a video format; for me it beats everything else hands down.

[Hendrik]

It should respect the forced flag in MKV. And I just tried, and it does here. Subtitle Mode is "Do not show subtitles", default languages both English, and the forced track was selected by default on playback.

Edit:
There was one limitation in there, namely it required you to have languages properly set and those languages to match. So instead MC will now always select the first forced track if none was found with a proper language choice.
For the best results, always configure default audio/subtitle languages in MC.

[RoderickGI]

Actually I don't like the use of the word "NULL" either. I would prefer that was "None".

But "Off" does make sense to me, because that is what is used in most other applications and hardware players, in my experience. It makes sense to stick with the standard, because that is what most people are used to.

Of course, when you start ripping to MKV and other formats, and wish to retain subtitles, you need to deal with the idiosyncrasies involved, of which there are many.

[tij]

It should respect the forced flag in MKV. And I just tried, and it does here. Subtitle Mode is "Do not show subtitles", default languages both English, and the forced track was selected by default on playback.

Edit:
There was one limitation in there, namely it required you to have languages properly set and those languages to match. So instead MC will now always select the first forced track if none was found with a proper language choice.
For the best results, always configure default audio/subtitle languages in MC.

Hendrick, on start of the movie default/forced subtitles are usually selected. Try to manually set subtitles to "OFF" in menu while movie is playing. Unless its a PGS subtitles with properly set PGS internal force flags, there will be no subtitle shown even if MKV marked them as forced.

I just tried it on MKV where I deliberately set SRT subtitle to force and default in MKV. On start playing SRT was selected, but on choosing "OFF" subtitles disappear.

Same happens with PGS subtitles with PGS internal force flags known to be not forced (I just remux one of my MKV and set normal PGS subtitle stream to be marked force and default in MKV) … On start playing PGS was selected, but on choosing "OFF" subtitles disappear.

In my experience only PGS subtitles with properly set PGS internal force flags will show when "OFF" option is chosen.

I explained in my previous post how to set internal force flags in PGS. There are some notorious BD that have force PGS subtitles with internal force flags not set (Captain America Civil War 3D, Last Samurai, Black Panther 3D ... to name few i came across)

[Hendrik]

Hendrick, on start of the movie default/forced subtitles are usually selected. Try to manually set subtitles to "OFF" in menu while movie is playing. Unless its a PGS subtitles with properly set PGS internal force flags, there will be no subtitle shown even if MKV marked them as forced.

I just tried it on MKV where I deliberately set SRT subtitle to force and default in MKV. On start playing SRT was selected, but on choosing "OFF" subtitles disappear.

This is working as intended. If you change the selected stream from the default, you get what you ask for. The PGS case is special because there usually isnt even an option to opt into that behavior otherwise, since its the only format that even supports flagging singular frames as forced within a bigger stream.

IIRC, if you don't have a PGS stream at all, then you don't get the "Null" option either, because Off fully takes that role. The PGS forced frame extraction is a bonus feature, more or less, not the baseline we aim for. Baseline should auto-select streams that seem appropriate as a default, in this case forced streams - if you change that pre-selection, you get whichever you selected. Important is the out-of-the-box experience here, reducing the need to actually view that menu entirely for the common user.

[tij]

This is working as intended. If you change the selected stream from the default, you get what you ask for. The PGS case is special because there usually isnt even an option to opt into that behavior otherwise, since its the only format that even supports flagging singular frames as forced within a bigger stream.

IIRC, if you don't have a PGS stream at all, then you don't get the "Null" option either, because Off fully takes that role. The PGS forced frame extraction is a bonus feature, more or less, not the baseline we aim for. Baseline should auto-select streams that seem appropriate as a default, in this case forced streams - if you change that pre-selection, you get whichever you selected. Important is the out-of-the-box experience here, reducing the need to actually view that menu entirely for the common user.

Darn … you are right … never noticed it

1. SRT subtitles (VOB subtitles and probably other subtitles) … only OFF option (no NULL) … MC will select subtitle marked forced/default in MKV on play … OFF in this case means truly no subtitles
2. PGS subtitles … have both OFF and NULL options … MC will select subtitle marked forced/default in MKV on play … NULL in this case means truly no subtitles … OFF will only display PGS frames that are internally marked forced

Hopefully, i got it right this time ... personally i am happy with this ... its transparent to non-tech person ... though might confuse some tech savvy ppl that always try to figure what each option exactly mean

[Lefisu63]

1. SRT subtitles (VOB subtitles and probably other subtitles) … only OFF option (no NULL) … MC will select subtitle marked forced/default in MKV on play … OFF in this case means truly no subtitles
2. PGS subtitles … have both OFF and NULL options … MC will select subtitle marked forced/default in MKV on play … NULL in this case means truly no subtitles … OFF will only display PGS frames that are internally marked forced

As initial requester of this thread (sorry I wasn't online for a longer time) - I'm now confused a little bit more. 

I know now what the OFF vs. NULL difference should be but confused with 1+2. ,)

We all getting old and grumpy lol … personally I don't really mind any options as long as its understandable

2 decades ago a person told me to name a menu what it really means.

I've followed this although as a database designer it's not easy to rename field names (to make a clearer meaning) without destroying program code - but with menu names incl. translations it might be easier I think - at least sooner or later with a new version.

"OFF" => "Off but show forced subtitles"
"NULL" => "Off incl. forced subtitles"

What I don't understand is why the player can not make a diff between "play substitles" vs "play only forced subtitles" in SRT files?