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Author Topic: Importing non-standard tags from photos  (Read 3660 times)

ninbus

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Importing non-standard tags from photos
« on: October 02, 2018, 09:26:21 am »

Hello.

I am trying to import tags from file but I have problems. Some of tags are imported, some not. I tried to manualy add new fields in Library and folders/Add new fields with exact same name and then Tools/Lybrary tools/update library from Library and nothing. I am doing something wrong when adding new fields (I set this new field for viewing in tag fields, but it is empty all the time. All tags are standard, except one. People tag is added additionaly with another program. I noticed that this tag already exist in JRiver, but it is empty also.

Picture attached.

In green. Tags imported correctly in JRiver
In blue. Standard tag which is not imported. I added same field in add new field
In red NON standard tag which already exist in JRiver, but it is not filled up
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swiv3d

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Re: Imported tags
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2018, 04:19:32 pm »

What sort of file are you importing? jpg, or a raw type of image file? For tagging image files @Marko is the expert you want to look at this.
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ninbus

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Re: Imported tags
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2018, 11:11:45 pm »

What sort of file are you importing? jpg, or a raw type of image file? For tagging image files @Marko is the expert you want to look at this.


Hello. Thanks for your answer. Type of file is JPEG. I noticed one strange thing. Title and tags are imported ok  in JRiver just for first time. If I change something in property on file (outside the JRiver), tools/update tags from library just don'update tags. Interesting thing is that vice versa works fine: if i change some tags in JRiver and then tools/update library from tags I can see changes in file property (right click on file properties outside the JRiver). I have instaled Demo JRiver on another PC (NUC- WIN 10 PRO) and same thing. What I am missing here?
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ninbus

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Re: Imported tags
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2018, 04:07:47 am »

Hy again

Ok. I think this is a bug and I would be very thankful if someone coud try this, because I have no Idea what is going on. I get new pictures with all tags in JRiver only FIRST time, when images are imported trough Import/run auto import now. This works of course for standars tags. Each NEXT time (if I change some tag in images outside JRiver and run Tools/library tools/update tags from library, tags are not updated. But if I change this standars tag in JRiver and run oposite operation Tools/library tools/update library from tags. Works just fine. To try this just right click on eny image for properties and then details and you will see default tags and you can play with that
I have 24k images on my server synology equipped with tags (keyword. People) and I would like to keep that in JRiver, and if I change some tags (standard-defolt tags which keyword, but people is not) in synology app and I woulld like to see that changes in JRiver ( at least for keyword)….However, playing with tags is so much easier with JRiver (joining, replacing, creating new from existing….etc) not to mention that JRiver can create custom view for DLNA servers with that new tags……BUT all that with existing. Allready entered tags. I read forum and I got an idea, that mostl of you are adding and creating tags in JRiver, and more or less in music department. So my problem is… I guess…. not interesting

In Short:
1.   I have tone of images with tags and JRiver can not read CHANGES for this tags. The reason I use JRiver in much bigger flexibility with existing and new tags
2.   I would like to know what I am doing wrong or issue mention above is really a bug.
3.   Is there eny advice how to import NON standard tag, created in outside program. I read on forum that that is not possible.
4.   My trial period  is slowlly running out….so don't know what to do
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JimH

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Re: Imported tags
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2018, 06:51:54 am »

You could manage your tagging in MC.
or
You could update MC's tags. 

There are tools that can move tags.  Try them carefully on a file or two.

The wiki is a good source for more information.
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ninbus

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Re: Imported tags
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2018, 09:50:08 am »

You could manage your tagging in MC.
or
You could update MC's tags. 

There are tools that can move tags.  Try them carefully on a file or two.

The wiki is a good source for more information.


I already did, works like a charm. I know that this proces is irreversible I have created a new tag in JRiver and join old tags to this new tag . All this is fantastic and super easy which makes JRiver so handy and that is why I am stiil trying.....

But my question is simple; why updating tags is not working?

thanks, ninbus
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JimH

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Re: Imported tags
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2018, 09:58:06 am »

There is an option called Update Tags When File Info Changes.
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ninbus

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Re: Imported tags
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2018, 11:06:18 am »

There is an option called Update Tags When File Info Changes.

Oh yes.  I Tried that the second day of my problem. Edit/Update tags when info changes. This setting suppose to update tags imediatelly. without clicking on libraryTools/update tags....That is how I understand WIKI. But that did not work either...


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Fred1

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Re: Imported tags
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2018, 12:48:55 pm »

Deleting marked files (from MC-Library only - not from the filesystem!), then reimporting the files (with Auto-Import) solves the problem for me.

Lyrics written to the files with the LyricsFinder app can't be seen in MC otherwise.
Only deleting and reimporting works.
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RoderickGI

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Re: Imported tags
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2018, 07:08:06 pm »

I read forum and I got an idea, that mostl of you are adding and creating tags in JRiver, and more or less in music department. So my problem is… I guess…. not interesting

There are one or two people, notably Marko, who use MC extensively for photos. I know you have searched the forum, but see if you can find their threads. Perhaps search for "Lightroom" and "People", as I seem to recall they use Lightroom for tagging people in photos.

3.   Is there eny advice how to import NON standard tag, created in outside program. I read on forum that that is not possible.

Again, there are only a few posts on how to achieve this. It is a little bit of black magic. I have had issues when I tried.

The key seems to be to make sure that the tag name in the original file matches the tag/field name created in MC, exactly. Often the tag name in a file is different to what is presented in software that views the tag. Such software will make tags "human readable", rather than show the underlying tag name. Some people have resorted to using Hex editors, or similar software, to identify the real tag name in the file.

Keep trying. I'm sure you will work it out. If it really is a bug and MC isn't importing/updating tags, JRiver is pretty responsive in fixing real issues around tagging.



Note, this could indicate a real issue:
Deleting marked files (from MC-Library only - not from the filesystem!), then reimporting the files (with Auto-Import) solves the problem for me.

Lyrics written to the files with the LyricsFinder app can't be seen in MC otherwise.
Only deleting and reimporting works.

I think MC will do more to try to match tags in a file to fields in the Library during an initial import. For updates that may not be happening as well.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

swiv3d

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Re: Imported tags
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2018, 05:58:52 am »

Each NEXT time (if I change some tag in images outside JRiver and run Tools/library tools/update tags from library, tags are not updated.
If you update tags from library after changing tags in the files outside of MC it will of course ignore all of the tags you added outside of MC because those tags are not in the library database. If you update tags outside of MC you should update library from file tags to put the new tag details into the MC library database.
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ninbus

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Re: Imported tags
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2018, 12:06:49 pm »

thank you all, you are all correct.  :)


I read this morning  old posts and one member of your beta team wrote

Update Tags (from Library) takes the internal MC Library meta data and writes it to the Tags inside your music files


And then I noticed, that I was wrong. For me Library was database outside the jriver and tags was database inside the JRiver :D. All clear now. All new calculated fields refresh instantly and updating new tags from outside works over Update Library from tags. So this is solved. I read some of marko's post and now I know, that non standard tags can probably be imported. but not in a easy way. I will keep trying....will see.

Have a nice day
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ninbus

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Re: Imported tags
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2018, 01:19:29 pm »

New experiments

I found documentation on Synology page, that  people tag is under Extensible Metadata xmp, which is actualy xml. For fun I renamed my test jpg file in xml and voila. I can see raw name for that tag. person1 is people tag  from my first picture. So what now? I added new field with that exact name in JRiver, I also modify (add this tag) to autoimport process. Still no luck with that NON standard tag. picture attached. Any advise?
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RoderickGI

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Re: Importing non-standard tags
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2018, 08:01:03 pm »

Any advise?

Yep. Change the name of this thread to "Importing non-standard tags" and you might get the interest of someone who knows how to do it reliably. (That isn't me!)

At a guess though, the "MPReg:PersonDisplayName" would mean that the actual tag name is "PersonDisplayName" and the tag type is "MPReg", but you need to reference the whole thing for tagging to work.

Googling "MPReg:PersonDisplayName" provides some good pages covering this.


Note that MC allows you to create a field/tag with a non-friendly name like "MPReg:PersonDisplayName", but give it a friendly Display Name. I have a field called "FavouriteTV" for example, but I just display "FTV" as it is a flag with the width of a checkbox, so I don't want a long Display Name.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

marko

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Re: Importing non-standard tags from photos
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2018, 10:26:30 pm »

Hi ninbus,

What is the 'other' program you are using to tag people?
Is there a good reason to continue using the 'other' program rather than MC?
Can you make a test file that has people tags from the 'other' program available for us to play with?

regards,
-marko

ninbus

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Re: Importing non-standard tags from photos
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2018, 09:51:20 am »

What is the 'other' program you are using to tag people?
I use synology native apps for photo – photo station

Is there a good reason to continue using the 'other' program rather than MC?
1.   I do not trust to eny database outside the file. This two tags I am using are in each photo itself. For instance, QNAP uses its own database for tags. Years ago I decided to upgrade my server QNAP, and bought  a new one.  According to QNAP's instructions i just put my HD drives into new one and yes, all data left, but all tags for photos, home videos and music has been lost. So I want to have tags stored in file (picture) and that file stored (for another backup)in cloud or else on HD.
2.   Photo station on synology is the only app where I can share my Playlists, albums over SHARE link. So, I do not need to send each photos by attachements, but all over one link (of course, Static WAN IP or Alias WAN IP is desirable)
3.   However. JRiver realy shines at creating custom playlist and albums. I want to import those two tags and add some new  in JRiver. If JRiver crash,  I still have original files with TWO tags   :)
I added sample photo from synology. General tag in green is correctly imported in JRiver. I can edit this tag in file properties or in JRiver. Non standard tag is in red. This is read only tag, I can not edt this in explorer (right click-properties). And I can not import this to JRiver- Which will make me really heapy. Thanks marko,  ninbus
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ninbus

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Re: Importing non-standard tags from photos
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2018, 09:52:04 am »

explanation of tags. I can not attach two files at the same time
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marko

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Re: Importing non-standard tags from photos
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2018, 12:34:16 pm »

Thanks. I've saved a copy and will have a play over the next day or three, no time left today :(

I have to say that I'm not wildly optimistic about our chances of success here, but I will try. In my experience over the years, I have never had any success with the "Tag()" function other than with the [date] field, which is imported automatically anyway, and in order to get MC to read and import, some help is needed from the dev team, and their time, as I'm sure you can appreciate, is precious. Rest assured they will have read this though, and if their help is required, and time allows, they will chip in.

Will let you know how I get on by the weekend.

regards,
marko.

ninbus

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Re: Importing non-standard tags from photos
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2018, 01:51:27 pm »

some help is needed from the dev team, and their time, as I'm sure you can appreciate, is precious.

Uf, thanks marko  :). The solution would be valuable and useful probably for others

regards, ninbus
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marko

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Re: Importing non-standard tags from photos
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2018, 12:04:12 pm »

Hi ninbus, not good news I'm afraid...

I cannot get these to import. Some observations...

Lightroom does not read these tags.
AcdSee does not read these tags.
Windows is able to display them in the file properties sheet.

Now, the rather excellent, and free for personal use, tool, XnViewMP, is detecting these as 'xmp' tags, which at first, was promising.

Lightroom also writes all of its info in xmp tags, and after face tagging in Lightroom, MC detects and imports the names into its own "People" field.

Unfortunately, Synology is writing the tags in a different format to that used by Lightroom, as shown below...
As written by Synology...


As written by Lightroom...


I have had no joy pulling the info from file using MC's "Tag(xmp: )" function, and to be honest, even if I had, it would still be a non-starter as you would need to parse all of the "regioninfo" tags individually, and without knowing how many people were tagged, I cannot see how we could automate this process.

Unless I've missed something hiding in plain sight, you're going to have to hope that Matt, Hendrik & Co have a slow week coming up, and they might be able to help.

Sorry I couldn't get this for you.
Regards,
-marko.

ninbus

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Re: Importing non-standard tags from photos
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2018, 02:05:39 pm »




AcdSee does not read these tags.

yep, I know that

Windows is able to display them in the file properties sheet.

and that too :)


Sorry I couldn't get this for you.

Heeej, thank YOU for the effort !

regards, ninbus
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carlismysecondname

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Re: Importing non-standard tags from photos
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2018, 01:30:28 am »

I would not recommend using synology photo station to tag your files. I did some experiments with it some months ago and only a few fields are compatible with other programs e.g. basic keyword tags, and maybe the title or caption(?) Can't remember exactly now.

BUT avoid especially their 3rd party photo editor. I've had tags completely erased using the their web app even for just simple image crops & color corrections.
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ninbus

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Re: Importing non-standard tags from photos
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2018, 11:35:38 am »

I would not recommend using synology photo station to tag your files. I did some experiments with it some months ago and only a few fields are compatible with other programs e.g. basic keyword tags, and maybe the title or caption(?) Can't remember exactly now.

BUT avoid especially their 3rd party photo editor. I've had tags completely erased using the their web app even for just simple image crops & color corrections.


I understand you and agree with you completelly. General tag and caption and location tag (which I don't use, but i tested funkcionality) are compatible with other app, people tag so, so. People tag is not their invention it is standard but rarely used. All my tags are writen in files itself, I like that. Picture attached from Wiki-synology
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carlismysecondname

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Re: Importing non-standard tags from photos
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2018, 10:03:34 pm »

Just had an idea:

I know that some people here just use/consolidate stuff with the 'Keywords' field instead of using JRiver's 'People', 'Places', & 'Events' tags for cross compatibility sake... This is just my suggestion, but maybe, a helpful way to organize quickly & visually between the three different types of keywords would be by changing the case of the words. So for names/people you could write everything in lower case (e.g. harry potter; barack obama; donald trump). For place/geographic location you can have it all written in upper case (e.g. 909 N BLUFF RD, COLLINSVILLE, IL 62234, UNITED STATES or BLUFF RD, COLLINSVILLE, IL, U.S.); and, for events you can just have all the words written in Sentence Case (e.g. Independence Day, Christmas, New Year, Birthday, HS/Senior Prom etc).


So as a single string it would look something like this:

      harry potter; barack obama; donald trump; N BLUFF RD, COLLINSVILLE, IL, U.S.; Independence Day


Or you could also switch the case between events and places/location:

      harry potter; barack obama; donald trump; N Bluff Rd, Collinsville, IL, U.S.; INDEPENDENCE DAY


And for the appearance when editing checkboxes see attached images.

---


This may be easier to do automatically en masse (or at least automate partially) if you haven't yet consolidated your tags in the keywords field.

Any thoughts? :)
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RoderickGI

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Re: Importing non-standard tags from photos
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2018, 10:40:14 pm »

Any thoughts? :)

No, just no.

Any such structuring schemes always fall down eventually. Frankly, that is a particularly bad example of structuring data.

The right way to do it, the only logical way, is to use fields for the appropriate attributes, People, Places, and Events. It is easy to add fields to MC, and set up Views to use those fields.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

carlismysecondname

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Re: Importing non-standard tags from photos
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2018, 11:50:39 pm »

Of course, I would absolutely agree that is the most ideal scenario -- in fact, that's the professional way to do it. But since when have the majority of photo camera consumers and photo uploaders ever been logical in the way they use those metadata fields? LOL.

Let's just say that I want to disseminate some christmas party photos to a bunch of my relatives. None of them use JRiver. None of them know what IPTC or XMP or metadata is in general. Every single one of these people use different photo viewers/editors (photo sharing / social media sites) -- maybe one or two host their own albums themselves instead of relying on FB, flickr or whatnot out of the dozen or two dozen relatives & friends I shared the photos to. What is the easiest way for the majority of them to see all the most important tags on a image file apart from the random filename, and say, caption? I think its almost universally the keyword/tag field.

If you at least use the same case pattern in all your photos, it's relatively obvious by simple visual inspection to mentally separate which tags are people/places/events. In fact, if plain old text could have different colors by default, that would help just as well.

Of course, if your goal is to truly utilize the full potential of JRiver as a database library & perform an almost infinite number of regular expression operations & calculations, then most definitely you should not follow this method. Most people have no desire to use up a better part of their lives/time figuring out/organizing photos & metadata the way a photographer or data scientist would -- the latter two at least may find some financial benefits from the overall effort.
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RoderickGI

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Re: Importing non-standard tags from photos
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2018, 01:23:41 am »

Well, actually I don't care what you put in the Keywords tag. Just don't expect any automation around it, unless you build it yourself.

It would make more sense to use XML style tags inside the Keywords or Description tag. A simple example may be "People: Brian White; People: Mary Black" etc. I think Marko uses something like that? A Keyword search would still find the name, and there is some information about what the data is, instead of people having to remember the capitalisation structuring you have designed.

But your argument is an argument for not using Standards, because nobody uses Standards. Well, if nobody uses them, then you are correct, nobody will use them. A better approach would be to use the Standard that is most common, and enforce it as much as possible. I don't know if the Lightroom or Facebook method is better, or an actual Standard, but I for one would like to see MC support that style of People documentation in photos, both in reading and writing tags.

When it is a Standard at least everybody knows how it is supposed to work, even if they don't follow it exactly.

Don't resist change, embrace it and make it a Standard!  8)
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

marko

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Re: Importing non-standard tags from photos
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2018, 10:41:33 am »

No, just no.
Totally agree. MC provides the means for anyone to not have to devote that much mental energy to their libraries. (Says he whose library employs all manner of expression based trickery... though the point is that once set, I never have to think about it)

I think Marko uses something like that?
I use MC's 'nesting' feature in image keywords... Things like, !People\Family\Mum;!People\Friends\Alex;!Events\Birthdays\Tracy's Birthday and so on... which gives me a keywords 'tree' along these lines...


To be honest, I do most, if not all, of my initial image preparation in Lightroom, including tagging, and, as outlined in this post, we can set MC to translate the Lightroom heirarchy directly into the [Keywords] field, so all of this is as smooth and painless as a very smooth and painless thing for me :)

Lightroom takes care of the originals, with crops and adjustments exported to MC, which imports them, all tagged up and ready to rock.

-marko

MusicHawk

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Re: Importing non-standard tags from photos
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2018, 03:01:35 pm »

Don't know if it is a factor in this thread, mentioning because there is a cross-app metadata problem that slams me: Forward slashes vs. Backward slashes messing up Keywords and other metadata importing/exporting.

I love using MC's wonderful ability to create nesting (thanks Marko!) which requires using Back slashes. I see the exact entered values  stored in the JPGs XML, such as <Keywords>!People\Presley\Elvis</Keywords>. Exactly as expected, except...

I find that MC metadata that has slashes comes out wrong in other photo apps, which apparently find the Back slashes have been changed to Forward slashes which is a problem. SmugMug.com, for instance, will read Keywords values and turn them into searchable values, but only if separated by Back slashes (and/or semicolons). They don't consider Forward slashes as value delimiters because users also use them for dates, URLs and other info they stash in Keywords (rightly or wrongly).

But hey, I put Back slashes into MC Keywords -- How could this result in Forward slashes? Digging into the bits inside JPGs tagged by MC, I see multiple sets of Keywords metadata, with both types of clashes. One set preserves the Back slashes, but the other set which seems to be the XMP block has the Back slashes changed to Forward slashes, making them "wrong" for SmugMug and others. (Note that SmugMug also owns Flickr.)

SmugMug declares they are "right" and JRiver is "wrong". Users like me are stuck in the middle.

Assuming MC stores metadata in various formats, to provide compatibility with various old and new and different photo systems and apps, that seems to be a good thing. BUT, why does MC convert original Back slashes to Forward slashes WITHIN metadata XMP fields? Why alter the user data? Why not leave it exactly as entered by the user, therefore preserving MC's nesting?

If SmugMug is doing something wrong in reading/parsing MC's metadata blocks, perhaps someone can succinctly say what they *should* be doing and maybe they'll listen. But if it is really MC that is in the weeds, maybe it could be fixed?

It is not a trivial thing, if MC continues to be presented as handling Photos along with Audio and Video. SmugMug and Flicker are the two largest independent photo publishing sites, and (unlike Apple, Google, Amazon, etc) they actually use Keywords and other metadata from uploaded photos. Yet they choke on some of MC's tags. Not cool.
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Managing my media with JRiver since Media Jukebox 8 (maybe earlier), currently use Media Center for Audio/Music and Photos/Videos.
My career in media spans Radio, TV, Print, Photography, Music, Film, Online, Live, Advertising, as producer, director, writer, performer, editor, engineer, executive, owner. An exhausting but amazing ride.

RoderickGI

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Re: Importing non-standard tags from photos
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2018, 05:40:18 pm »

Generally speaking, MC converts backslashes to forward slashes for compatibility with Mac OSX, I think. Certainly in file paths.

If you are seeing duplication of the Keyword tags in the files, one copy with backslashes and one copy with forward slashes, then I suspect that JRiver is providing both so that the Keywords work in both OSs.

Maybe that rule shouldn't be applied to tag field? I don't know.


It would be nice if MC used more standard methods for images, but there doesn't seem to be one real standard. There are many. I don't think Flickr or SmugMug sets the standard, even if they are the biggest sites which use photo metadata. If I was to use anyone's method for metadata, I think it would be Adobe's.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

MusicHawk

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Re: Importing non-standard tags from photos
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2018, 12:01:36 pm »

SmugMug claims to use the Adobe standard. Further, they integrate with Adobe Lightroom and thereby comply with the tagging/metadata of Lightroom.

But, a SM product manager examining my MC-tagged photos says they do NOT comply with Adobe, using Forward slashes where Adobe Lightroom uses Back slashes.

I am not able to debate this accurately, but suffering from the disconnect. Something seems not right.

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Managing my media with JRiver since Media Jukebox 8 (maybe earlier), currently use Media Center for Audio/Music and Photos/Videos.
My career in media spans Radio, TV, Print, Photography, Music, Film, Online, Live, Advertising, as producer, director, writer, performer, editor, engineer, executive, owner. An exhausting but amazing ride.

MusicHawk

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Re: Importing non-standard tags from photos
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2018, 12:44:45 pm »

When uploading my MC photos to SmugMug.com, Keywords values that used Backslashes for nesting are not being seen as separate values, the nested values get smashed together into a mess.

I complained, declaring that JRiver Media Center makes helpful use of Back slash delimiters for nesting. SmugMug looked into it, and (amazing) actually modified their upload code to properly read and store Keywords that have Back slashes. BUT in testing, I still found my photo Keywords values mangled upon upload to SmugMug.com.

SmugMug looked further, and said that while I requested and they provided better handling of Back slashes, my photos actually all have Forward slashes, which will not work as desired.

Huh? I'm certainly typing Back slashes for Keywords nesting, and seeing Back slashes in MC. But (below), SmugMug (SM) provided examples of Keywords values extracted from my photos that have Forward slashes and therefore do not work properly. They say all my photos do. How and why?

Using ExifPro to examine MC-tagged photos shows this in Keywords: !Events/Wedding, !Places/US/CA/La Jolla. That's what SmugMug sees too. But what I actually typed and see in MC is this: !Events\Wedding, !Places\US\CA\La Jolla. The Forward slash version of Keywords seems to be created by MC, which then breaks use of those keywords by other apps.

Using a cruder tool, I can dig into the physical files enough to see the same Keywords values stored at least twice, in separate data blocks, one with Back slashes, another with Forward slashes. This might indicate SmugMug is reading the meta data header block "wrong", OR it might indicate that MC's syntax is not "right" so SmugMug doesn't know what part to read and use?

And beyond the slashes question, SmugMug says MC's XML tagging of multiple Keywords values is not per the standard.

Note that the XMP way of using XML for image (and PDF) tagging arose from Adobe in 2001, and in 2012 became an ISO standard (16684-1). Nowadays XMP seems to be used by every modern photo app and site that I encounter, instead of the 1970s IPTC format for metadata (International Press Telecommunications Council method for documenting shared photos, years before digital, of course, but in mid-90s implemented in Photoshop). I think photo apps that put both in each photo is not uncommon.

Adobe has extensive documentation and developer tools for XMP:
https://www.adobe.com/products/xmp.html
https://www.adobe.com/devnet/xmp.html

But what does JRiver MediaCenter use? Why does it not seem to work with SmugMug and Adobe Lightroom?

Here are excerpts of comments by a SmugMug product manager (September 11, 2018).

Quote
The EXIF format supports hierarchical keywords in the metadata, [JRiver] just need to make sure they export the keywords in that format (specifically calling out the top level keyword and then its children in the proper XMP format).

...In an "XMP" format in which there's a special recipe for how keywords are written into the photo. It often looks something like:

<keyword>KeywordOne</keyword>
<keyword>KeywordTwo</keyword>
<keyword>KeywordThree</keyword>


Each `<keyword>` line tells the software when one keyword ends and the next one begins.

Hierarchical keyword support was later added to image formats and adds a `children` flag that identifies the sub-tags, typically looking something like:

<keyword>KeywordOne</keyword>
<keyword:Children>
   <keyword>subKeywordOne</keyword>
   <keyword>subKeywordTwo</keyword>


The [JRiver Media Center] photos you uploaded all have XMP metadata that looks like:

<keyword>!Events/Hike</keyword>
<keyword>!People/Bob</keyword>

Because we're reading the keywords based on the metadata spec, which states that keywords are separated by `<keyword>` we see the full string as the keyword.

_Technically_ we're following the metadata spec and reading the metadata properly. However, just because we're doing what the metadata spec says doesn't always mean we're thrilling all of you. That's why we wanted to understand how you and your photo editor store these keywords so that we could do extra processing on the photos to get the outcome you'd like.

I pulled up a few of your recent uploads and it was very easy to understand why your photos are having the issue... It appears your photos are all being uploaded with forward-slashes:

What can I do to have MC preserve my Back slashes in Keywords stored in the JPG header? And shouldn't MC store metadata exactly per what is considered the XMP metadata spec? Why ignore or conflict with Adobe and the 2012 ISO standard? (SmugMug integrates with Adobe Lightroom and claims that tagging format is exactly what SmugMug uses.)


By the way, I used the discussion in SmugMug's forum to strongly brag about how simple and fast it is to use MC for library organization and tagging, far far better than Adobe Lightroom (which does other things, of course, but is clumsy and slow). Unfortunate that my attempt to Spread The Word about Media Center got derailed by discovering the metadata incompatibility.
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Managing my media with JRiver since Media Jukebox 8 (maybe earlier), currently use Media Center for Audio/Music and Photos/Videos.
My career in media spans Radio, TV, Print, Photography, Music, Film, Online, Live, Advertising, as producer, director, writer, performer, editor, engineer, executive, owner. An exhausting but amazing ride.

carlismysecondname

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Re: Importing non-standard tags from photos
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2018, 06:55:54 am »

I see your point, and maybe I'm an outlier in my non-standard ways of thinking, but I don't know anyone personally using tags correctly/extensivly in my circle. And when people re-upload my photos, they're often cropped, resized, recompressed, and/or re-edited badly. Same thing when I download family relative's photos posted online. I often find myself asking if all this re-tagging of their photos is (besides my own photos) is all worth-it. Really, when I could just as have had read a book or watched a good movie(s) instead.  :P  Everyone has a differnt heirarchy of priorities.

*I've asked my brother (more than a couple times) to send some of his original family photos to me for archiving and editing, but he has flatly stated no. With my sister, she says I should just download and save a copy from her facebook profile... and so on. In a way that's fine too. But I don't see any of them deleting their facebook profiles in the future (maybe), so those suboptimal photo albums will have to do. God, I hate visiting facebook, but just cannot seem to avoid it.

As with the smugmug keyword nesting/hierarchy compatibility issue -- was thinking of completely deleting my flickr and switching to them, yet am left still undecided -- it's really something that needs to be looked at by the JRiver developers, somehow -- or at the very least, acknowledged that it's an important issue that will be eventually checked-out & resolved -- hopefully sooner than... two or three years later. LOL

When I do recommend JRiver to people, I mainly focus on it's audio capabilities (and maybe video for the theatre view)... but I cannot honestly PERSONALLY recommend it for image management (prefer working with nested folders, color tagging, image status icons etc. too much) -- am already contemplating on finally going back to ACDsee (after going at it for another round of trial, of course) -- haven't used it in a long while and will need to refresh. *Already downloaded and installed, and now just need to find time to test it before the trial ends! I'm quite often bad with keeping track.
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Yaobing

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Re: Importing non-standard tags from photos
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2019, 10:43:43 am »

SmugMug looked further, and said that while I requested and they provided better handling of Back slashes, my photos actually all have Forward slashes, which will not work as desired.

Huh? I'm certainly typing Back slashes for Keywords nesting, and seeing Back slashes in MC. But (below), SmugMug (SM) provided examples of Keywords values extracted from my photos that have Forward slashes and therefore do not work properly. They say all my photos do. How and why?

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,43975.msg301054.html#msg301054
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Yaobing Deng, JRiver Media Center
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