INTERACT FORUM

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Down

Author Topic: NEW: HDCD Detection and Playback  (Read 40071 times)

bob

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 13613
Re: NEW: HDCD Detection and Playback
« Reply #100 on: December 09, 2019, 11:31:52 am »

Seeing similar behaviour on a customer's system; his HDCDs are being tagged as 0 even after a recent re-rip. MC 25 114 64-bit. His DAC has an indicator light that illuminates when it's getting an HDCD signal. It remains off, and the Audio path is not indicating any HDCD trace at all. THe files were ripped as wavs in dBpoweramp, leaving everything as the source.
I'm still waiting on someone to send me one of these tracks, if you wanted to that would be great.
One thing I think to be aware of is that there is a combination of HDCD settings that don't actually provide any increase in Dynamic range or effective bitdepth and I believe we are ignoring those.
Logged

fitbrit

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 4878
Re: NEW: HDCD Detection and Playback
« Reply #101 on: December 09, 2019, 11:33:27 am »

I will be touching base with the customer in a few days. I can definitely get some sample tracks at that point.
Thanks!
Logged

Paul S.A. Renaud

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 218
Re: NEW: HDCD Detection and Playback
« Reply #102 on: December 22, 2019, 12:20:21 pm »

Never paid any attention to HDCD. But started to do (some) new audio analyzing. So far, I found 3 albums in my collection (2x Rosemary Clooney and 1x Mark Knopler).

I still do not understand what the output from MC is. The audio path says HDCD processing. However the DAC indicates a 44.1/16 bit stream output. So where is the improvement? Sounds a little like MQA voodoo (although the output with MQA is at least 24bit).
Logged

Leroy Bad

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: NEW: HDCD Detection and Playback
« Reply #103 on: December 27, 2019, 04:54:17 pm »

Hi I'm on 25.0.114 Windows 10 64-bit

I've recently starting buying CDs again, and a couple of CD I got recently was from Reference Recordings, Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky, and Rachmaninoff's Piano Trio. Both are Hybrid SACDs with an HDCD encoding for the 2 ch redbook layer. I'm using dbpoweramp to rip the disc using its HDCD decoder plugin. dBpower detects that they are HDCD discs and rips them to 24-bit, in AIFF.  I leave the +6db amplification option disabled.
MC shows both of these rips as HDCD=0.

I'm confused as to why. I've read some suggestions on this thread, but nothing is definitively stated. So I wanted to ask if the fact that I'm ripping to AIFF an not Flac make a difference? And if dBpoweramp is decoding the HDCD portion and adding it to the remaining 8 bits, then there is no HDCD encoding for MC to detect? (I'm assuming thats how dbpoweramp is working but I'm not sure.)
Logged

dtc

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3029
Re: NEW: HDCD Detection and Playback
« Reply #104 on: December 27, 2019, 05:52:54 pm »

Hi I'm on 25.0.114 Windows 10 64-bit

I've recently starting buying CDs again, and a couple of CD I got recently was from Reference Recordings, Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky, and Rachmaninoff's Piano Trio. Both are Hybrid SACDs with an HDCD encoding for the 2 ch redbook layer. I'm using dbpoweramp to rip the disc using its HDCD decoder plugin. dBpower detects that they are HDCD discs and rips them to 24-bit, in AIFF.  I leave the +6db amplification option disabled.
MC shows both of these rips as HDCD=0.

I'm confused as to why. I've read some suggestions on this thread, but nothing is definitively stated. So I wanted to ask if the fact that I'm ripping to AIFF an not Flac make a difference? And if dBpoweramp is decoding the HDCD portion and adding it to the remaining 8 bits, then there is no HDCD encoding for MC to detect? (I'm assuming thats how dbpoweramp is working but I'm not sure.)

dBpoweramp has already decoded the HDCD bits when it creates the 24 bit file. There is nothing left for MC to decode.
Logged

bob

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 13613
Re: NEW: HDCD Detection and Playback
« Reply #105 on: January 07, 2020, 04:42:54 pm »

I will be touching base with the customer in a few days. I can definitely get some sample tracks at that point.
Thanks!
Were you able to come up with a track I can test?
Logged

sygnus21

  • Junior Woodchuck
  • **
  • Posts: 76
Re: NEW: HDCD Detection and Playback
« Reply #106 on: January 08, 2020, 12:27:57 am »

Ok, so after going through the thread I'm somewhat confused so....? When the library is analyzed for HDCD tracks it doesn't create a separate HDCD album or tracks, right? It just put a 1 in for tag for those tracks right?

Just needing clarification. Thanks.
Logged

dtc

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3029
Re: NEW: HDCD Detection and Playback
« Reply #107 on: January 08, 2020, 06:37:27 am »

Ok, so after going through the thread I'm somewhat confused so....? When the library is analyzed for HDCD tracks it doesn't create a separate HDCD album or tracks, right? It just put a 1 in for tag for those tracks right?

Just needing clarification. Thanks.

Correct. Then it does the HDCD decode on playback.  Play the track and look at Audio Path. It will say it is decoding HDCD if the tag is set to 1.
Logged

sygnus21

  • Junior Woodchuck
  • **
  • Posts: 76
Re: NEW: HDCD Detection and Playback
« Reply #108 on: January 08, 2020, 12:38:49 pm »

Yeah, I figured it out. Thanks. So far scanning half of my 1000 CD library, I've come up with about 6 HDCD albums. That's fairly correct considering I think I have a about 10 in total. Have a lot of "audiophile CD's - MFSL, DCC, XRCD, Sheffield labs, but not a lot of "HDCD" ones.

Anyway thanks for the reply  :)
Logged

sygnus21

  • Junior Woodchuck
  • **
  • Posts: 76
Re: NEW: HDCD Detection and Playback
« Reply #109 on: January 08, 2020, 11:15:04 pm »

So out of the 1032 CD's I've ripped to JRiver thus far only 4 CD's showed up as HDCD - 2 expected, 2 not. I've got over 3000 CD's so that's just a third of my collection and I know I have a few more HDCD's

Anyway two of my CD's (Jonathon Butler's Do you Love Me, and Chaka Khan's Epiphany: The Best of Chaka Khan) shows up as HDCD and says Process HDCD enabled, but bit depth is wrong. The bit depth shows up as 24-bit, while the other two HDCD's show up as 16-bit  ?
Logged

bob

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 13613
Re: NEW: HDCD Detection and Playback
« Reply #110 on: January 09, 2020, 09:52:49 am »

So out of the 1032 CD's I've ripped to JRiver thus far only 4 CD's showed up as HDCD - 2 expected, 2 not. I've got over 3000 CD's so that's just a third of my collection and I know I have a few more HDCD's

Anyway two of my CD's (Jonathon Butler's Do you Love Me, and Chaka Khan's Epiphany: The Best of Chaka Khan) shows up as HDCD and says Process HDCD enabled, but bit depth is wrong. The bit depth shows up as 24-bit, while the other two HDCD's show up as 16-bit  ?
Inline HDCD decoding is only done on the original 16 bit file, whether in wav format or a lossless format like flac or alac.
If you have "24 bit" HDCD source material it's already been converted by another decoder, in theory you get about 20 bits of resolution in a 24 bit sample.
You don't want to manually mark the files as HDCD. MC will determine whether or not the source material is HDCD. The default value for that field is -1 when the material hasn't been scanned to see if it's HDCD yet.
You can test the HDCD detection by changing the HDCD tag for a track to -1 then right-clicking on the file and do audio analysis (unclicking the skip analyzed files option) then do the audio analysis look at the value for HDCD at the far right of the analysis window. It will now be either 0 or 1.

If you have a track you are CERTAIN is HDCD and you do this test and MC doesn't think so, I'd like to get a copy of that track to test. If it's small you can email it to me at bob (at) jriver (dot) com or use something like firefox send to get the track to me. Thanks.
Logged

sygnus21

  • Junior Woodchuck
  • **
  • Posts: 76
Re: NEW: HDCD Detection and Playback
« Reply #111 on: January 09, 2020, 02:19:46 pm »

Inline HDCD decoding is only done on the original 16 bit file, whether in wav format or a lossless format like flac or alac.
If you have "24 bit" HDCD source material it's already been converted by another decoder, in theory you get about 20 bits of resolution in a 24 bit sample.
You don't want to manually mark the files as HDCD. MC will determine whether or not the source material is HDCD. The default value for that field is -1 when the material hasn't been scanned to see if it's HDCD yet.
You can test the HDCD detection by changing the HDCD tag for a track to -1 then right-clicking on the file and do audio analysis (unclicking the skip analyzed files option) then do the audio analysis look at the value for HDCD at the far right of the analysis window. It will now be either 0 or 1.

If you have a track you are CERTAIN is HDCD and you do this test and MC doesn't think so, I'd like to get a copy of that track to test. If it's small you can email it to me at bob (at) jriver (dot) com or use something like firefox send to get the track to me. Thanks.

I'm a little confused on the first section of your post so let me say this, and go from there....

I rip CD's in APE format using dBpoweramp. The rip program has a DSP filter you can set to detect HDCD's upon ripping. Once the filter is set if dBpoweramp rips a CD that is HDCD encoded, you will be notified as shown in the attachment. That CD will then show up in JRiver as 24-bit CD (attached image), with an HDCD code of 0. If I "Analyze" the CD, the HDCD code either stays at 0 or (for some CD's) changes to 1. If changed to 1, when playing a track off the disc, I'll get "HDCD and says Process HDCD enabled, but bit depth is wrong"  This is tested with "known" HDCD disks!

So the short of it, I use dBpoweramp to rip which detects HDCD's and rips them as such. Those CD's show up in JRiver as 24-bit CD's, but will say they are the wrong bit if played in HDCD decoding. These are known HDCD's.

And I did the HDCD detection test on the known (as in written on the CD) HDCD disks and 3 of the 4 changed from  -1 to 1, while the other moved to 0. Odd. Nonetheless, 24-bit, still say wrong bit depth. That said, no sound issues or defects.
Logged

bob

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 13613
Re: NEW: HDCD Detection and Playback
« Reply #112 on: January 09, 2020, 02:49:41 pm »

I'm a little confused on the first section of your post so let me say this, and go from there....

I rip CD's in APE format using dBpoweramp. The rip program has a DSP filter you can set to detect HDCD's upon ripping. Once the filter is set if dBpoweramp rips a CD that is HDCD encoded, you will be notified as shown in the attachment. That CD will then show up in JRiver as 24-bit CD (attached image), with an HDCD code of 0. If I "Analyze" the CD, the HDCD code either stays at 0 or (for some CD's) changes to 1. If changed to 1, when playing a track off the disc, I'll get "HDCD and says Process HDCD enabled, but bit depth is wrong"  This is tested with "known" HDCD disks!

So the short of it, I use dBpoweramp to rip which detects HDCD's and rips them as such. Those CD's show up in JRiver as 24-bit CD's, but will say they are the wrong bit if played in HDCD decoding. These are known HDCD's.

And I did the HDCD detection test on the known (as in written on the CD) HDCD disks and 3 of the 4 changed from  -1 to 1, while the other moved to 0. Odd. Nonetheless, 24-bit, still say wrong bit depth. That said, no sound issues or defects.
dBpoweramp is doing the HDCD decoding to a 24 bit ape file as they are ripped so the ape files are no longer in HDCD format.
Logged

sygnus21

  • Junior Woodchuck
  • **
  • Posts: 76
Re: NEW: HDCD Detection and Playback
« Reply #113 on: January 09, 2020, 04:10:05 pm »

dBpoweramp is doing the HDCD decoding to a 24 bit ape file as they are ripped so the ape files are no longer in HDCD format.

That's... interesting. BTW all my non-HDCD CD's ripped in APE come out as 16-bit APE files.

Anyway, for the record, another of my HDCD Keiko Matsui CD's was ripped in JRIver using flac, and was shown as a 16-bit file with a 1 for HDCD after analyzing. No bit warnings. I then re-ripped it in APE and yeah, it now shows as a 24-bit CD with the same wrong bit warning so that definitely lines up with what you said.

With that, should I just turn off HDCD encoding for those HDCD's ripped in APE? I've not noticed any sound anomalies, but...

Thanks.
Logged

bob

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 13613
Re: NEW: HDCD Detection and Playback
« Reply #114 on: January 09, 2020, 04:30:49 pm »

That's... interesting. BTW all my non-HDCD CD's ripped in APE come out as 16-bit APE files.

Anyway, for the record, another of my HDCD Keiko Matsui CD's was ripped in JRIver using flac, and was shown as a 16-bit file with a 1 for HDCD after analyzing. No bit warnings. I then re-ripped it in APE and yeah, it now shows as a 24-bit CD with the same wrong bit warning so that definitely lines up with what you said.

With that, should I just turn off HDCD encoding for those HDCD's ripped in APE? I've not noticed any sound anomalies, but...

Thanks.
Any of the HDCD's ripped in APE to 24 bit can have the bit turned off.
Even with the bit on there shouldn't really be a difference, it's more the extra step of having to run them through the processor.
Logged

sygnus21

  • Junior Woodchuck
  • **
  • Posts: 76
Re: NEW: HDCD Detection and Playback
« Reply #115 on: January 10, 2020, 12:36:46 am »

Alright, I'm good. Thanks  :)
Logged

Jim L

  • Regular Member
  • Junior Woodchuck
  • **
  • Posts: 76
Re: NEW: HDCD Detection and Playback
« Reply #116 on: April 18, 2020, 12:06:42 pm »

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread. Is it possible to use the file converter to convert HDCD FLACs to 24-bit for playback on devices where I'm not running MediaCenter?
Logged

Matt

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 42063
  • Shoes gone again!
Re: NEW: HDCD Detection and Playback
« Reply #117 on: April 18, 2020, 12:17:02 pm »

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread. Is it possible to use the file converter to convert HDCD FLACs to 24-bit for playback on devices where I'm not running MediaCenter?

The converter wasn't respecting HDCD but I changed it for a coming build.
Logged
Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

Jim L

  • Regular Member
  • Junior Woodchuck
  • **
  • Posts: 76
Re: NEW: HDCD Detection and Playback
« Reply #118 on: April 19, 2020, 02:20:45 am »

The converter wasn't respecting HDCD but I changed it for a coming build.

Sounds great. Does this mean that Iíll be able to convert files to include decoded HDCD content in the future then?
Logged

Matt B

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: NEW: HDCD Detection and Playback
« Reply #119 on: March 05, 2021, 11:59:14 am »

I checked that "Settings -> Library & Folders -> Auto-Import -> Analyze for HDCD" is checked.

Did a rip of Tom Petty's "Hard Promises", which is a HDCD disk. After the rip the HDCD tag for the files are set to 0. Shouldn't this be set to 1? If I re-analyze the CD it is still set to 0.

Anything I'm missing, a bug or something else?

BTW, my JRiver version is 27.0.66 (64-bit)

Thanks,
Matt
Logged

bob

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 13613
Re: NEW: HDCD Detection and Playback
« Reply #120 on: March 05, 2021, 01:04:23 pm »

I checked that "Settings -> Library & Folders -> Auto-Import -> Analyze for HDCD" is checked.

Did a rip of Tom Petty's "Hard Promises", which is a HDCD disk. After the rip the HDCD tag for the files are set to 0. Shouldn't this be set to 1? If I re-analyze the CD it is still set to 0.

Anything I'm missing, a bug or something else?

BTW, my JRiver version is 27.0.66 (64-bit)

Thanks,
Matt
That's not on either of the 2 commonly referenced lists.
Also, some labeled HDCD's have HDCD encoding enabled but doesn't use either one of the two HDCD encoding features resulting in no change.
Logged

dtc

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3029
Re: NEW: HDCD Detection and Playback
« Reply #121 on: March 05, 2021, 01:23:42 pm »

Discogs lists  the 2001 release as HDCD, e.g.

https://www.discogs.com/Tom-Petty-And-The-Heartbreakers-Hard-Promises/release/8712707

The images show HDCD on the back on the case, although, as Bob says, not all CDs that are labelled as HDCD actually are. MC added some code to not identify CDs as HDCD if they do not have any actual HDCD code in these.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Up