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Author Topic: Setting the color space for EVR & MadVR  (Read 6845 times)

jachin99

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Setting the color space for EVR & MadVR
« on: June 06, 2019, 12:23:12 pm »

I'm looking for the best way to set the color space on various displays.  I'm pretty sure it can be set in the madvr settings via the MadVR tray icon but I'm not sure how to do it for EVR, or LAV.  With other Direct Show media players I have used I get a tray icon for LAV but I don't seem to have that for MC.  Can I enable that as well?  Thanks. 
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tij

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Re: Setting the color space for EVR & MadVR
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2019, 12:56:30 pm »

MC uses its own copy of LAV and MadVR and not the one you globally installed (that way they control which version is used for stability reasons … there are ways to force MC to use latest version but that's something only advance ppl should try and something developers strongly discourage)

LAV settings are not accessible on MC … again there are ways but that's different topic

MadVR setting is accessible … [Tools]->[Options]->[Video] … set Video Mode to Red October HQ … and [Open MadVR Settings] will become available … color space  for each monitor/TV can be set there in [devices]->[calibration]
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jachin99

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Re: Setting the color space for EVR & MadVR
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2019, 01:48:55 pm »

If I set the colorspace in MadVR how do I know if its correct for EVR?  Is there a way to set a system wide colorspace regardless of which renderer I choose?
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tij

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Re: Setting the color space for EVR & MadVR
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2019, 07:03:47 am »

I am a bit confused by what you mean “color space”

Are you referring to rec709 rec602 bt2020 etc (color space)

Or NV12 RGB I420 etc (color format)

Ppl confuse these terms a lot ... that include me too lol
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jachin99

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Re: Setting the color space for EVR & MadVR
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2019, 07:59:50 am »

No worries, I'm not even sure I'm using the correct term.  I'm looking for the setting that lets me rgb full or limited as in a color range from either 0 - 255 or 16 - 235.
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tij

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Re: Setting the color space for EVR & MadVR
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2019, 08:44:21 am »

MadVR does not control/switch this settings

I only know this for NVidia cards (as I don’t own others) ... go to NVidia Control Panel ...
[Display]->[Change Resolution] -> [3. Apply the following settings]

Choose [Use NVidia color settings] then options you want will be available under output dynami range  (full is 0-255 ... limited is 16-255)

This is global setting ... meaning MadVR will not able to change output dynamic range (not that it ever do such a thing lol)
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jachin99

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Re: Setting the color space for EVR & MadVR
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2019, 09:14:01 am »

In the NVidea control panel I have it set to use the application setting.  I can adjust this in madvr and I get a noticeable change.  The setting I'm changing is under Video, Adjust video color settings.  I have been told and have been following to set the GPU color range to full, and adjust the video color range or space via whatever video player I'm using. 
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jachin99

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Re: Setting the color space for EVR & MadVR
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2019, 09:17:25 am »

I should also point out that under display and change resolution, I have it set to RGB Full.  I'm not sure if this only applies to desktop applications, and video setting sets the range for MC but that would make sense to me.  Even so if the GPU is looking to the video application to set the range then I'm still not sure where to change this when EVR is set as the renderer.
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darky

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Re: Setting the color space for EVR & MadVR
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2019, 09:43:35 am »

I think you have to look in LAV for that and the driver
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tij

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Re: Setting the color space for EVR & MadVR
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2019, 10:05:02 am »

You are right ... in MadVR settings ... on display property you can specify what display is expecting (full or limited dynamic range) ... I set mine of course on full (0-255)

However, I highly doubt that MadVR tells NVidia driver to change its dynamic range (that’s why MadVR settings explicitly state “what display expects” ... and not “switch dynamic range to”)

In other words ... imo MadVR will generate/render video for dynamic range you tell it to, but it will not tell GPU to switch to that dynamic range ... that’s on you (aka you have to do it yourself)

With my MadVR set to generate dynamic range 0-255 ... if I specify in NVidia  control panel “let application decide” ... I get elevated black level (aka grey ... not black) on playback to LG E6 ... set it to [NVidia Setting] with full dynamic range and I get blacks as black

Which let me to believe following:

1. default dynamic range that NVidia uses is 16-255
2. Red October Standard renders in 16-255
3. MadVR renders to whatever you tell it, but will not tell GPU to switch to matching mode (that’s on user)

So ... what you been told is correct imo
1. In NVidia set to “Nvidia Settings” and put full dynamic range (YOUR TV/PROJECTOR MUST SUPPORT IT)
2. Then set renderers to output in that mode ... in MadVR that’s under devices

PS. Why you using EVR? ... why not just use MadVR for all videos?

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jachin99

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Re: Setting the color space for EVR & MadVR
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2019, 02:52:47 pm »

I'll need to find a way to get some test files.  I grabbed the avs 709 disc, and ran in it through powerdvd.  With every setting under the NVidea control panel set to full color space my black levels looked correct.  I did this with daytime ambient light but its rainy today, and I did have to adjust the brightness on my TV. 

I tried playing the avs709 iso through JRiver via virtual clone drive but I'm having trouble with menus.  So far it looks like your correct, and thanks for the help but I want to be absolutely sure of this, and the only way I know to do that is with test files.  Would you happen to know where I can get a single VIDEO test file for color space.  I also don't want to assume MC uses MadVR when I view photographs.  Thanks again, and I really appreciate your time.  So far I'm really liking JRiver. 
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mojave

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Re: Setting the color space for EVR & MadVR
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2019, 04:52:40 pm »

This is from the madVR FAQ in the second post of the madVR thread at Doom9:

A) Which output format (RGB vs YCbCr, 0-255 vs 16-235) should I activate in my GPU control panel?

Windows internally always "thinks" in RGB 0-255. Windows considers black to be 0 and white to be 255. That applies to the desktop, applications, games and videos. Windows itself never really thinks in terms of YCbCr or 16-235. Windows does know that videos might be YCbCr or 16-235, but still, all rendering is always done at RGB 0-255. (The exception proves the rule.)

So if you switch your GPU control panel to RGB 0-255, the GPU receives RGB 0-255 from Windows, and sends RGB 0-255 to the TV. Consequently, the GPU doesn't have to do any colorspace (RGB -> YCbCr) or range (0-255 -> 16-235) conversions. This is the best setup, because the GPU won't damage our precious pixels.

If you switch your GPU control panel to RGB 16-235, the GPU receives RGB 0-255 from Windows, but you ask the GPU to send 16-235 to the TV. Consequently, the GPU has to stretch the pixel data behind Windows' back in such a way that a black pixel is no longer 0, but now 16. And a white pixel is no longer 255, but now 235. So the pixel data is condensed from 0-255 to 16-235, and all the values between 0-15 and 236-255 are basically unused. Some GPU drivers might do this in high bitdepth with dithering, which may produce acceptable results. But some GPU drivers definitely do this in 8bit without any dithering which will introduce lots of nasty banding artifacts into the image. As a result I cannot recommend this configuration.

If you switch your GPU control panel to YCbCr, the GPU receives RGB from Windows, but you ask the GPU to send YCbCr to the TV. Consequently, the GPU has to convert the RGB pixels behind Windows' back to YCbCr. Some GPU drivers might do this in high bitdepth with dithering, which may produce acceptable results. But some GPU drivers definitely do this in 8bit without any dithering which will introduce lots of nasty banding artifacts into the image. Furthermore, there are various different RGB <-> YCbCr matrixes available. E.g. there's one each for BT.601, BT.709 and BT.2020. Now which of these will the GPU use for the conversion? And which will the TV use to convert back to RGB? If the GPU and the TV use different matrixes, color errors will be introduced. As a result I cannot recommend this configuration.

Summed up: In order to get the best possible image quality, I strongly recommend to set your GPU control panel to RGB Full (0-255).

There's one problem with this approach: If your TV doesn't have an option to switch between 0-255 and 16-235, it may always expect black to be 16 (TVs usually default to 16-235 while computer monitors usually default to 0-255). But we've just told the GPU to output black at 0! That can't work, can it? Actually, it can, surprisingly - but only for video content. You can tell madVR to render to 16-235 instead of 0-255. This way madVR will make sure that black pixels get a pixel value of 16, but the GPU doesn't know about it, so the GPU can't screw image quality up for us. So if your TV absolutely requires to receive black as 16, then still set your GPU control panel to RGB 0-255 and set madVR to 16-235. If your GPU supports 0-255, then set everything (GPU control panel, TV and madVR) to 0-255.

Unfortunately, if you want application and games to have correct black & white levels, too, all the above advice might not work out for you. If your TV doesn't support RGB 0-255, then somebody somewhere has to convert applications and games from 0-255 to 16-235, so your TV displays black & white correctly. madVR can only do this for videos, but madVR can't magically convert applications and games for you. So in this situation you may have no other choice than to set your GPU control panel to RGB 16-235 or to YCbCr. But please be aware of that you might get lower image quality this way, because the GPU will have to convert the pixels behind the back of both Windows and madVR, and GPU drivers often do this in inferior quality.
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jachin99

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Re: Setting the color space for EVR & MadVR
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2019, 06:12:02 pm »

Thanks Mojave, to answer your earlier question tij, I will have MC on different computers connected to a mix of TV screens and monitors.  One such PC is an old intel NUC so madvr isn't going to be an option.  I'm still not sure how to do this with EVR, which I'll be using on most of my displays. 
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tij

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Re: Setting the color space for EVR & MadVR
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2019, 02:52:29 am »

Like Mojave mentioned ... first thing to be sure is that tv/projector support 0-255 before obsessing over it

Since you using less powerful hardware for non-critical viewing ... there is no point over obsessing with video quality ... it will not match your MadVR dedicated machine ... I would just stick with Red October Standard on those machine ... and used saved time to actually enjoy movies

To be truthful I did not notice crushed blacks (MadVR full dynamic range playing on NVidia limited range) for long time ... since room has lot of sunlight ... I only noticed it much later when watching movie in totally darken environment
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jachin99

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Re: Setting the color space for EVR & MadVR
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2019, 10:38:42 am »

What I'm doing until I find an answer is setting everything to Madvr, and adjusting the scaling algorithms, etc. until my videos play correctly.  That seems pretty well on the 2 PCs I have setup so far.  For the color space, I will have to figure out bluray menus and check run my calibration disc but right now I have it set to limited again in madvr because that looked correct in the one test pattern I found.   
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jachin99

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Re: Setting the color space for EVR & MadVR
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2019, 08:48:58 pm »

Like Mojave mentioned ... first thing to be sure is that tv/projector support 0-255 before obsessing over it

Since you using less powerful hardware for non-critical viewing ... there is no point over obsessing with video quality ... it will not match your MadVR dedicated machine ... I would just stick with Red October Standard on those machine ... and used saved time to actually enjoy movies

To be truthful I did not notice crushed blacks (MadVR full dynamic range playing on NVidia limited range) for long time ... since room has lot of sunlight ... I only noticed it much later when watching movie in totally darken environment

I have a DLP TV in a darkened room, and I'm relatively sure it doesn't support the full color range.  It does have a PC mode but I don't use it.  With madvr set to full the blacks are much darker but with it set to limited I notice more shades of black.  That would seem to me to indicate that some color is being cut out but I could be wrong.  All my GPU settings are set to full.  I did notice that when I set the bit depth to 8 from 12 in the nvidea control panel that my blacks got a little darker   have you noticed if that makes any difference.
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tij

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Re: Setting the color space for EVR & MadVR
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2019, 04:29:23 am »

Maybe this arcticle will help ... https://www.lightillusion.com/data_tv_levels.html
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