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[rn701]

Overall, the UI is very list oriented. There are many ways to do the same things. Displays are very dense with info and options and text. It is overall not a clean look. The now playing displays are cluttered. A nice, simple full screen display with album cover, album name, artist and song title and some user defined library fields would be nice. I know this can be done with Track Info, but most user's can't even figure out how to play an album at first. Some specifics follow.

It takes 5 clicks to shuffle play a playlist

It takes 3 clicks to get to audio settings (which are called options)

There's no obvious way to get out of mini-view

What does view->navigate do?

What does tools->advanced tools->Media Server do?

Duplicate options found under tools->advanced tools and tools->library tools, same options found by right-clicking, so at least three ways to do some of these things

There are two ways to get to DSP settings

There are two ways to get to audo settings (options), in one place they are called Playback Options in another place they are called Audio Options

There are at least four different ways to shuffle content

There are at least two different ways to get to library settings

Library settings are confusing

Now playing displays and visualizations are hidden under right clicking on the display

The included visualizations and track info displays are antiquated and not very attractive

The relationship of various views, displays and visualizations is cluttered and confusing

[JimH]

Why don't you choose 2 or 3 of those so we can discuss them?

Having more than one way to get to a destination is an advantage, in my opinion.

Ctrl - O (letter) opens options.

[Matt]

It takes 5 clicks to shuffle play a playlist

I would be fine adding a "Play (shuffled)" button to the header of a playlist right next to the "Play" button.  Is that something people would find useful?

Note that you can already do that with right-click.

[rn701]

Reorganizing and simplifying the menus would be a good start.

I have tried all of the mainstream Windows music players, including Roon, but keep coming back to JRiver for its sound quality, extensive all-in-one features, and amazing value.

(The only one I haven't tried is Audirvana because they only recently came out with a Windows version and judging from their product info it is missing a lot of features, too.)

JRiver is widely respected, but the confusing UI is the number one complaint in discussions and reviews and in my own experience.

[rn701]

I would be fine adding a "Play (shuffled)" button to the header of a playlist right next to the "Play" button.  Is that something people would find useful?

Note that you can already do that with right-click.

Yes!

[rn701]

Also, there's a lot of dependence on right-click, which is incredibly useful in some cases, but not always intuitive.

But once you right-click you sometimes have to swoop up and down, into a sublevel, and even more sublevels that go away before you complete the action if your mouse strays outside the boundaries. Needless to say, this doesn't work at all for a touchscreen.

[Matt]

Yes!

Well, one down!

Next build:
NEW: Added a "Play (shufffled)" button to the view header of a playlist.

[rn701]

Well, one down!

Next build:
NEW: Added a "Play (shufffled)" button to the view header of a playlist.

Thank you!

[rn701]

Well, one down!

Next build:
NEW: Added a "Play (shufffled)" button to the view header of a playlist.

Just to add, this another great thing about JRiver. Y'all work fast. With Roon, "support" asks for your complete machine specs and network topology with router brands and models before they will discuss it, even if it's an obvious bug. Then they discuss it with "the team" to see if it fits their philosophy and where it fits in their "roadmap" and "release cadence." Then you wait months for a new release, it breaks stuff (and there's no rollback), new features are added that nobody asked for, and stuff works differently than before for no apparent reason and sometimes worse than before, and nothing gets done about longstanding feature requests. If you complain, you just don't get it and Roon isn't for you.

[JimH]

For people who are reading this and would like to change the UI ...

There are many ways you can change the way JRiver looks or even make it audio only, for example.  Our wiki has helpful topics.  You can change the skin, the font, and even the size of the display.  You can add custom fields and custom views.  More on our wiki.

Simplified User Interface

Theater View is a completely different interface.

You can jump to Display View upon playback.  Settings for this are in Tools > Options > General > Behavior.

In Standard View, you can customize what metadata is displayed at the top during playback.  Right click on it and choose Customize.

[rn701]

For people who are reading this and would like to change the UI ...

There are many ways you can change the way JRiver looks or even make it audio only, for example.  Our wiki has helpful topics.  You can change the skin, the font, and even the size of the display.  You can add custom fields and custom views.  More on our wiki.

Simplified User Interface

Theater View is a completely different interface.

You can jump to Display View upon playback.  Settings for this are in Tools > Options > General > Behavior.

In Standard View, you can customize what metadata is displayed at the top during playback.  Right click on it and choose Customize.

This is a perfect example of why JRiver is daunting for new users. So much complexity. And none of it mitigates the overall outdated look and feel or the density.

Theater view is good, but seems abandoned and not very customizable.

It would be nice to not have to do a lot of complicated customization to achieve a nice clean interface like these kids today are used to with their out-of-the box mobile apps.

[DJLegba]

It would be nice to not have to do a lot of complicated customization to achieve a nice clean interface like these kids today are used to with their out-of-the box mobile apps.

I'm not arguing with you, but what mobile app media player are you thinking of here?

[rn701]

I'm not arguing with you, but what mobile app media player are you thinking of here?

Spotify, Tidal, Amazon, Google, all the Android derivatives,  JRemote, Bubble, probably others I'm forgetting.

[JimH]

rn701,
You could make a lot more progress by being specific.

You're the expert here.  Make a single suggestion that improves the interface.  If we agree, we'll consider changing it.  But you need to get buy-in first.

[DJLegba]

Spotify, Tidal, Amazon, Google, all the Android derivatives,  JRemote, Bubble, probably others I'm forgetting.

I've tried all these and I find them all frustrating. Spotify is the worst. They are all geared to playlists and songs. They don't work with large collections, and are particularly bad with classical music. If you want to change the output to something other than your phone on Tidal, you've got to start playing first and only then do you get the ability to send it somewhere else.

I do like JRemote, and I use Bubble, but they're not suited for tagging or organizing your collection, or many other things you really need Media Center for.

[rn701]

rn701,
You could make a lot more progress by being specific.

You're the expert here.  Make a single suggestion that improves the interface.

Rewrite it. But I know how hard that is from experience.

As an alternative, write a modern, "simplified" overly, which judging by how many ways there are to get to various functions might not be that hard, and leave the existing interface as the "expert" or "advanced" option.

I'm not an expert by any means. But I do have some experience with software development and maintaining "legacy" apps, which is where (no offense) JRiver is at now.

[rn701]

I've tried all these and I find them all frustrating. Spotify is the worst. They are all geared to playlists and songs. They don't work with large collections, and are particularly bad with classical music. If you want to change the output to something other than your phone on Tidal, you've got to start playing first and only then do you get the ability to send it somewhere else.

I do like JRemote, and I use Bubble, but they're not suited for tagging or organizing your collection, or many other things you really need Media Center for.

Yeah, I get all that. But I'm talking about appearance and experience,  not functionality.

[JimH]

Rewrite it. But I know how hard that is from experience.

As an alternative, write a modern, "simplified" overly, which judging by how many ways there are to get to various functions might not be that hard, and leave the existing interface as the "expert" or "advanced" option.

I'm not an expert by any means. But I do have some experience with software development and maintaining "legacy" apps, which is where (no offense) JRiver is at now.

So you're one of those guys.  "I don't know anything about art, but I know what I like."

You've complained a lot, but you're not making specific suggestions that can be implemented.

The apps you mention are fine.  They just aren't close in terms of capabilities.

So put up or shut up.  A single specific change that will improve the experience?

[JimH]

This discussion reminded me of the now four-year-old thread on Pretty Face

Panel comes close to what I had in mind when we began that.  I don't think the interface could get any cleaner than that.

[JimH]

Theater view is good, but seems abandoned and not very customizable.

You might try customizing it.  It's in the options.

Try using Panel and Theater View as your main means of playback for a while.  Maybe you never fully adopted them.

[DJLegba]

Yeah, I get all that. But I'm talking about appearance and experience,  not functionality.

If experience means how pleasing it is to use, Spotify, Google Play, Amazon, and Tidal all score very low for me.

[rn701]

You might try customizing it.  It's in the options.

Try using Panel and Theater View as your main means of playback for a while.  Maybe you never fully adopted them.

I've been using JRiver for years and I'm familiar with all or at least most of the features. I created my own Track Info display that addresses my now playing display preference, and it's beautiful to me. But expecting a new user to do that is unrealistic. Plus, when I have to leave the now playing view I'm back to  all the other annoyances.

You seem to be asking what one or two things specifically would simplify and improve the UI. Conversely, you seem to be offering up a myriad of complicated alternatives, which, frankly I've tried and don't address the issue .

Honestly, I'm not trying to be difficult. I like your software. I'm just trying to offer some constructive criticism.  You apparently don't see it as constructive, but at least you are willing to engage.

[rn701]

So you're one of those guys.  "I don't know anything about art, but I know what I like."

You've complained a lot, but you're not making specific suggestions that can be implemented.

The apps you mention are fine.  They just aren't close in terms of capabilities.

So put up or shut up.  A single specific change that will improve the experience?

Actually, no, I've offered some very specific observations, and one of them has apparently been acted on already.

[eddyshere]

Theater view is good, but seems abandoned and not very customizable.

+1 unfortunately

[Scobie]

Some great stuff in here though:

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,119385.0.html

[JimH]

+1 unfortunately

Any specific suggestions?

[blgentry]

I kind of get where you are coming from on this.  But you have to realize that this software is like a giant floating ship with 3 generations of people living on it.  It's evolved from a base state, into what you see today.  It has a rather large customer base that use an incredibly diverse set of processes.  One person might use one set of views with particular options.  Other might have never even seen those views or options.

MC is frankly kind of big and ugly.  It's not exactly elegant.  But it has a very solid foundation and a very long history which has led to this point.  I myself have asked for sweeping changes in certain areas and I've essentially been laughed off of the ship.  Almost nothing is going to make a huge change happen with MC.  In a way this makes business sense:  They don't want to alienate their enormous installed base, which has time and effort invested in how they use MC.

Which, if you think about it, is actually a huge strength of MC.  Some programs like for example, MS Word and iTunes, radically change the interface every product cycle or two or three.  Every time they do this, they drive away customers.  We all scream at the screen:  Why have you done this?!?!?  Where is my familiar UI?!?!?

MC is the opposite. It's cultivated a base interface that's mostly unchanged.  Instead new options are bolted on, while old ones continue to work.

Again, I do see where you are coming from.  But you should realize that you also lack knowledge.  For example, you can shuffle Playing Now (not now playing) at any time with a menu option or a key sequence (control-r).  So shuffling a playlist is quite easy.  Play it.  Press control-r.  Done.  Settings (Options) are one hot key away:  Control-o .    Media server is a way of keeping the network service of MC functional while the regular window based interface is closed.   Yes there are multiple ways to do the same thing.  Because this is a rather sprawling tool designed to work with lots and lots of different work flows and approaches.

If you want a very clean and elegant interface, then you will have to give up flexibility.  There are many things in life like this.  In software, clean elegant design means the removal of options and workflows.  That's just how it works.  This is actually why a lot of long time windows users get so upset when they try to use Apple products.  Because Apple has very clean streamlined UI design.  ...and correspondingly few options and limited workflow.  I generally like Apple stuff.  But MC is clearly the most advanced audio player on the market.  Not only is it better, more powerful, and more flexible than itunes, it's actually outlived it!  Itunes is now dead, while MC continues on.

If you will learn a few of the ins and outs of MC that you don't already know, you'll probably feel more like you can pilot this giant 30 level ship with 18 masts pointing 4 directions.  You'll become the master of the beast instead of a frustrated passenger running around trying to find the bow of the ship.

Many of us are here ready to help you if you want to learn more and understand.  Or maybe you want to ride on a different ship with fewer rooms, sterile hallways, and fewer options.   You seem like a smart person; I'm not trying to belittle you in any way.  Just stating the state of MC as I see it and offering my help if you want it.

The choice is yours my man.

Brian.

[JimH]

Actually, no, I've offered some very specific observations, and one of them has apparently been acted on already.

Ok.  We're done then.  Thanks.

[RoderickGI]

Actually, no, I've offered some very specific observations, and one of them has apparently been acted on already.

"Rewrite it" isn't very specific.  The fact that JRiver responded to your one specific request shows that they will, when details are provided. But you have now caused yet another way to shuffle to be added to MC.

You don't get all the functionality without the complexity, simply because you need the options to select the functionality.

You don't get the responsiveness without duplication of methods to access functionality, when an App is developed in the way MC is. Also not everyone likes the same settings and methods to do stuff, so there will be duplication.

But I have said similar things to you in the past, and Jim has challenged me to be specific, make suggestions, and so on. I do what I can, because it isn't my day job, but I can't say that I have met that challenge. I'm also not a software designer. Maybe one day...


Bottom line, MC is cheap because it is a small development team. Because of that, if JRiver was to rewrite that whole interface, you wouldn't see any new functionality, or hear from the team, for six years. I prefer the complexity, continuous updates, and improvements to waiting for a long time to see what they may come up with.


Honestly, I think the way MC Standard and Theatre views present is due to the business model that JRiver uses, which is successful and has been working for a long time. Small team. Incremental and continuous development. Low price.
...But I would still like JRemote for Android to be brought up to equivalency with JRemote for iOS, which requires no suggestions because the model already exists. Plus more useability in Panel. But that is the challenge I have; to make suggestions on how.

[JimH]

I'm just trying to offer some constructive criticism.  You apparently don't see it as constructive, but at least you are willing to engage.

Constructive, in this case, requires specifics.  General comments are of no help.

I appreciate your intent.  It just needs to be stated in terms of what's doable.

[eddyshere]

Any specific suggestions?

yes : integrate player infos available in display view into theaterview. for me More explicitly make the jump to>chapters function (right-click in display view) available in big fonts ie. theaterview.

it exists already !!! but with a remote getting there in theaterview from a running movie is a 4 to 6-click nightmare.

[Matt]

yes : integrate player infos available in display view into theaterview. for me More explicitly make the jump to>chapters function (right-click in display view) available in big fonts ie. theaterview.

it exists already !!! but with a remote getting there in theaterview from a running movie is a 4 to 6-click nightmare.

This is here in Playing Now of Theater View:
Theater View > Playing Now > Player... > Jump To

It's working well for me.

[eddyshere]

This is here in Playing Now of Theater View:
Theater View > Playing Now > Player... > Jump To

It's working well for me.

Matt, honored to have YOUR attention on that one.

Yes I know it's there but just try to use it as somebody using MC Theaterview with a remote
1. Play a movie from theaterview
2. Display view will open in fullscreen
3. THEN try to navigate to playing Now of Theaterview>player>Jump to  but only with keyboard strockes (to simulate what the remote does) ... you'll see it is not as straightforward as it seems

If I could just have a keyboard shortcut (or MCWS/MCC function) opening this "jump to" window directly it would be heaven and solved  !!

Anyway thanks in advance to consider this request.

[Matt]

3. THEN try to navigate to playing Now>player>Jump to  but only with keyboard strockes (to simulate what the remote does) ... you'll see it is not as straightforward as it seems

You can just tap the green button on the remote and you're back in Theater View.  Then it seems pretty straight forward.

Maybe start a new thread if you'd like to discuss more?

Thanks.

[AndrewFG]

If someone has a new UI idea, then I suggest they should make a hand drawn sketch of how it looks on screen, and post that here. That way people can see and judge if it adds value.

Trying to describe a UI idea in words is (IMHO) a complete waste of time.

[eddyshere]

I just wonder how one could get in one or two clicks, commands or whatever to jriver2.jpg (see thread 1st comment) from a fullscreen displayview.

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,104922.msg729366.html#msg729366


And yes i know particles exist but this would be a nice function helping people using MC's theaterview with a remote.

[Hendrik]

As mentioned in one of these threads, I do have a plan to update the On-Screen Display navigation with Keyboard/Remote in Display View in the future, but its more of a complete overhaul then a quick tweak to make a chapter list, as such it'll come a bit later.

[mattkhan]

Constructive, in this case, requires specifics. 

one thing that I think is consistently a bit confusing and/or not very discoverable is the way so many view options are hidden in a nested menu at the top of a view

changing the filter associated with the view is 3 clicks and 2 dialogs away (customise view > set rules for file display)
there's no quick way to filter a view (unless you know that "view as" panes will do this with some defined set of fields to search by though that also brings the pane tagging into play which is itself slightly confusing)
there's no quick way to change the view style (thumbnails or list) nor any quick sort (all buried in that right click menu)

IMV this would be nicer to use and more obvious if it were a toolbar at the top of the view (I tried to think of an example and only the jira search came to mind but it's not a great example, perhaps you get the idea though), things to surface there (so they are immediately visible) include

* icons for view styles (thumbnails, list etc)
* the filter definition and make the search dialog a single click away from here (with a save and perhaps a save as button to update this view or create a new one)
* some quick filter mechanism (that doesn't change the underlying search)
* some quick group by options (user defined preferably)

[JimH]

Ctrl-T toggles the view.

[mattkhan]

Ctrl-T toggles the view.

I don't see a mention of ctrl-t as a shortcut in the app nor on the wiki and it does nothing here. What is it meant to do?

[lepa]

I don't see a mention of ctrl-t as a shortcut in the app nor on the wiki and it does nothing here. What is it meant to do?

Cycle between zones

[JimH]

It's ctrl U.  Sorry. 

[drmimosa]

Could there be a one click "unify/sync all views" option? Something that has vexed me often is that I will design a view in the main app, then have to manually add it to media network views and dlna server views and theater view. Or I'll add a view in one place and forget it was there.

I am familiar with "Add view from Standard View", but it seems cumbersome to manually add a new view to all the above places.

It would be great to easily synchronize all views listed above (standard view, theater view, media network, and dlna network.)

[ferday]

Cycle between zones

i've always wondered if there was a way to change the tab-stop on this one, it doesn't follow the order in the playing now bar.  that could be considered a small UI assistance...

[mattkhan]

It's ctrl U.  Sorry.

OK right, keyboard shortcuts are useful things for those who know them, it is the opposite of what I'm talking about (which is making tailoring a view a simpler/easier to access thing)

[JimH]

i've always wondered if there was a way to change the tab-stop on this one, it doesn't follow the order in the playing now bar.  that could be considered a small UI assistance...

Please explain.  Do you mean that using Ctrl-T should cycle through the zones in the order in which they appear in Playing Now?

[ferday]

Please explain.  Do you mean that using Ctrl-T should cycle through the zones in the order in which they appear in Playing Now?

sure, that would be ideal.  or even alphabetical.  currently it's random (more likely, the order the zones were created in)

[Matt]

It is the order they were created in, but next build will try this:
Changed: Made toggling zones forward and back (Ctrl+T, etc.) go in the display order instead of the order created.

[ferday]