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[robland]

Running MC 25.0.92 (64-bit) on a Win 10 laptop, sending files from a NAS to a Hegel 360 streamer/amp via ethernet

MC 25 stops playing a playlist between songs, for no apparent reason. I'm sitting on the couch running Gizmo on my Android phone, and literally every other song, I have to press "Resume playback" because MC 25 simply stops.

This does *not* happen with MC 22, which I've (thankfully) kept installed. It also does *not* happen when I use MC 25 to stream songs to my desktop system, in which the dac is attached directly to the laptop running MC 25 via 5-inch usb cable. This issue occurs *only* when MC 25 is streaming files via ethernet to my main system in the other room.

I wonder if this is somehow related to an issue I reported earlier, where MC 25 couldn't play the first 30-60 seconds of any song streamed via ethernet. Somehow, that problem now seems mitigated, but in some bizarre tradeoff, I'm now plagued with this new problem. In general, MC 25 seems to have problems sending files via ethernet to my main system...

(side note: Soon after purchasing MC 25, I posted here about an issue where it would *not* repeat playing now. Why am I having these issues with ***basic*** functionality like playing a playlist?? Disappointed...)

[~OHM~]

error

[JimH]

MC isn't "having trouble sending files via Internet".  If you're having trouble, it's somewhere else.  Device, network, antivirus, etc.

Google AndrewFG whitebear and use his DMRA analyzer to see what it suggests.

[JimH]

Soon after purchasing MC 25, I posted here about an issue where it would not repeat playing now.

In that thread, Matt said he could not reproduce your report.  That means it could be related to your device.

[robland]

I said "ethernet" meaning sending files over my home network, not "Internet."

The fact that MC22 does not have these issues with this Hegel device, but MC25 does, seems to rule out the device as the problem - at least to me.

And the fact that MC25 never has issues with my usb-connected desktop system, only with the ethernet-connected main system, seems to make the issue a networking one - at least to me.

But sure, I'll spend more of my free time downloading the tool to see what it says...

[robland]

Results of the renderer analysis test attached.

No idea what I'm looking for here, so if anyone's familiar with this tool, suggestions welcome.

[RoderickGI]

Based on the images you have shared, you are trying to send 24 bit LPCM to the Hegel, and it only supports 16 bit.

My simple advice would be to change the MC DLNA Server settings to match the DMRA recommendations, as shown in your second image.

You may want to run some more tests using the DMRA with more samples. Did you download the version with sample files? If not, do that and check more audio formats to confirm what the H360 can play. You won't need to look far though. Even in your first image, the DRMA tells you that "Play Failed" down the bottom.

I am constantly amazed that high end and expensive audio equipment manufacturers seem to say very little to nothing about what digital audio formats their device will play. Certainly, I can't find information on the Hegel site that specifies what formats it will play via a digital input, let alone what it will play when audio is sent to it via DLNA. The H360 User Guide doesn't say anything at all about supported digital formats/codecs. Maybe you could find a review which provides that information. I didn't look at reviews.

The best hint about the H360 DLNA capabilities is found in the "Bubble UPNP Guide" from the Hegel support page, where it specifically tells you to set the Bubble "Mime-type check" off to ensure it works in any setup. In this case, Bubble is acting as the DLNA server, and they are telling you not to let Bubble ask the Renderer what mime-types (Digital Formats) it supports. The Renderer is their H360! That implies it is known to be what I would consider a broken Renderer!


Okay, so it worked on MC22 but doesn't work on MC25. There have been a lot of changes to DLNA between MC22 and the current version of MC25. Some of those changes needed to reset some DLNA settings. You might want to also try setting one or both of "Playing Now > right-click the H360 > DLNA Controller Options" "Ignore transport events" and "Disable SetNext Support", particularly if you want to continue trying to send PCM 24 bit to the H360. That may fix the issue, but the DMRA says that the H360 supports (or says it supports) those functions.



But I suspect that MC22 has always been sending "PCM L16 with no header" to the H360 all along, and now you are trying to send "PCM 24 bit".

[robland]

Thanks for the response. It's going to take me some time to digest everything here, do more tests, and compare all settings in MC22 vs. MC 25. I may not get to this until the weekend.

But in the meantime, I'm skeptical that Hegel supports only 16 bit b/c it has a DAC loop feature -- here's my full audio chain:

QNAP NAS > ethernet > Hegel 360 > coax digital out > Schiit Yggdrasil DAC > balanced XLR out > Hegel 360 > speaker cable > Raidho monitors

The Schiit DAC has lights that indicate the resolution being played. Also, the DAC makes a small clicking sound when changing resolutions. So I can both see and hear that the DAC is playing hi-res files. And the hi-res files do *sound* like hi-res.

[RoderickGI]

Well, that complicates things a bit... a lot really. Actually, an awful lot.

Where is MC in that audio chain?

Based on this and your first post, I have to assume that you are only using MC as a DLNA Controller and that you have a DLNA Server running on your QNAP NAS. In which case, the audio, as you rightly note, isn't going through the laptop at all, and any issues with playback are solely an issue with the NAS DLNA Server, or the H360, or the Shiit (Ok, unlikely the Shiit).

But then you are using Gizmo to control playback, so it is the DLNA Controller. I guess Gizmo could control MC which could control the NAS DLNA Server... But that seems unlikely. Is your audio path actually;

QNAP NAS <-> MC on Laptop acting as a DLNA Server > ethernet > Hegel 360 > coax digital out > Schiit Yggdrasil DAC > balanced XLR out > Hegel 360 > speaker cable > Raidho monitors
                                              ^
                                Gizmo as DLNA Controller


In which case, your audio files would have been imported into MC using a URI or drive mapping, and not by connecting to the DLNA server on the NAS. MC would then be acting as a DLNA Server with Gizmo as Controller, and DLNA settings in MC will have some effect on the audio sent to the Hegel. If your audio files were imported into MC by connecting to the NAS DLNA Server, then the NAS is still in the audio chain, and its capabilities must be taken into account. It should just serve the files, but maybe it can do more? I don't have a QNAP.

If it is running, you should turn off the DLNA Server on the NAS unless you have a good reason to run it, such as other apps connect to that DLNA Server and not the MC DLNA Server.


If MC is in the Audio path, then the Shiit should (will) handle 24/192, but what is happening in the "> Hegel 360 > coax digital out >" section of the audio path? How would you even find out?

One would hope that it is an untouched digital path, but that could be hard to determine.

Maybe set the laptop next to the H360, connect Laptop via USB > Hegel 360 > coax digital out > etc. and see what the Shiit reports it is getting when you play 24/192 in JRiver on the laptop, check the MC Audio Path to confirm what it is sending. Oh wait... the shiit only reports Sample Rate with its lights, doesn't it? So it can report 48x4 or 192 KHz, but it can't report the bit depth. I guess you will have to rely on what the MC Audio Path says it is sending, and assume that there is no transcoding in the "> Hegel 360 > coax digital out >" section of the audio path. Unlikely I guess. But what effect, exactly, would this section of the audio chain present to MC as?

In fact, what does MC see as the output audio device? The Shiit, or the Hegel?

I would hope that the output Audio Device MC sees is the Shiit when connected via USB as above. When connected via ethernet MC would have to see the Hegel, as it is the network endpoint, which means DLNA Renderer in this case. But then the MC DLNA server would see the Hegel Renderer (including the DAC ) capabilities when it is actually playing to the Shiit DAC.

Lots to think about and test. Maybe some questions to Hegel about that "> Hegel 360 > coax digital out >" section of the audio path.

Maybe test this audio path to see if any of your playback problems exist in this configuration:

QNAP NAS <-> MC on Laptop acting as a DLNA Server > ethernet > Hegel 360 > speaker cable > Raidho monitors
                                              ^
                                Gizmo as DLNA Controller

[blgentry]

As you can tell by reading this thread DLNA is, to put it politely, not a very standard standard.  Your setup may eventually work the way you want it to.  Or it may break again after MC gets another DLNA update.

My admittedly biased advice is to ditch all DLNA from your system.  You own an absolutely phenomenal DAC!  I would want as few links in the playback chain as possible if it were my system.  I would want the MC computer connected directly to the DAC via USB or coaxial digital.

If for some reason it's impractical to connect your primary MC computer to the DAC, then I would buy another computer and run MC on it as a renderer only.  MC to MC network audio is supposed to work quite well.  I have not personally done it very much; just a few quick experiments.  In theory MC to MC network audio should bypass a lot of DLNA "non standard behavior" because JRiver controls both sides:  The MC sender and the MC receiver.

Again, connecting your primary MC computer directly to the DAC is the shortest, most simple path.  Short and simple are usually the best recipe for good sound, reliable operation, and ease of troubleshooting.

Good luck to you.

Brian.

[robland]

@RoderickGI thanks for the feedback, there's a lot to respond to, I'll start hacking away at this.

I've disabled all DLNA *except* for JRiver. This means:

1) I've turned off the DLNA server on the QNAP app - screenshot attached.

2) I've turned off media streaming on the Win10 laptop at Control Panel\Network and Internet\Network and Sharing Center\Media streaming options - screenshot attached.

3) I've turned off the Windows Media Player service - screenshot attached.

I learned early on that JRiver really doesn't like it when there are other DLNA servers on the network - very glitchy.

I added the QNAP as a mapped drive to the Win10 laptop running JRiver, so I'm using the QNAP *only* for storage.

So I *think* this is the correct path that you provided:

QNAP NAS <-> MC on Laptop acting as a DLNA Server > ethernet > Hegel 360 > coax digital out > Schiit Yggdrasil DAC > balanced XLR out > Hegel 360 > speaker cable > Raidho monitors
                                              ^
                                Gizmo as DLNA Controller

[robland]

So about this part --

If MC is in the Audio path, then the Shiit should (will) handle 24/192, but what is happening in the "> Hegel 360 > coax digital out >" section of the audio path? How would you even find out?

One would hope that it is an untouched digital path, but that could be hard to determine.

-- Hegel tells me that when the DAC loop feature is activated (which it is), the Hegel acts simply as a renderer/network bridge and passes bits straight through to the external DAC via digital out. Then when it gets analog back from the DAC, the hegel acts simply as an integrated amplifier. So in theory, you simply substitute a 3rd-party DAC for the built-in Hegel DAC.

I hope this is simplifying everything.

[robland]

And about this --

In fact, what does MC see as the output audio device? The Shiit, or the Hegel?

-- MC sees the Hegel because it's the DLNA device acting as the renderer/network bridge - screenshot attached.

[robland]

Okay, I think I have the gist of what you're saying here, though note the Schiit is a recent purchase so I've definitely tried this path before and the issues *are* present --

Maybe test this audio path to see if any of your playback problems exist in this configuration:

QNAP NAS <-> MC on Laptop acting as a DLNA Server > ethernet > Hegel 360 > speaker cable > Raidho monitors
                                              ^
                                Gizmo as DLNA Controller


So what I think I need to do is move the laptop into the other room and connect it directly via digital coax (or usb) either to:

1) the Schiit Yggy, so the path is basically

QNAP NAS <-> MC on Laptop acting as a DLNA Server > digital coax > Schiit DAC > analog XLR > Hegel 360 > speaker cable > Raidho monitors
                                              ^
                                Gizmo as DLNA Controller

This path makes the most sense to me.

2) the Hegel, so the path is

QNAP NAS <-> MC on Laptop acting as a DLNA Server > digital coax > Hegel 360 > digital coax > Schiit DAC > analog XLR Hegel 360 > speaker cable > Raidho monitors
                                              ^
                                Gizmo as DLNA Controller


In both cases, what we're taking *out* of the path is the Hegel network card/rendering capability.

BTW I did google whether other Hegel owners are having networking issues. I found one thread about someone asking the dealer to replace a network card, but it doesn't seem like a prevalent issue.

[robland]

Okay @blgentry, we're on the same page. Making my current laptop the dedicated MC server and connecting it directly to the Schiit DAC is on my list, but the laptop's currently doing double-duty as my main work machine in my home office. (For this reason, I won't be able to test these different path configurations until the weekend b/c unhooking all peripherals and monitors is a chore.)

I expect your suggestion will work ***MUCH*** better because as I've said, I've never had any glitchiness whatsoever with MC on my desktop system, where the path is simply --

QNAP NAS <-> MC on Laptop acting as a DLNA Server > usb> Meridian Explorer DAC > speaker cable > Paradigm powered speakers

And yes, the Schiit Yggy is incredible! I thought the Hegel/Raidho combo was phenomenal already (I think the Raidho ribbon tweeter is the best speaker now made), but this DAC takes it to another level.

[RoderickGI]

Good work.

It does sound like the Hegel DLNA Renderer capability is the problem. It could be the MC DLNA Server, but as the DMRA reported a failure in the "Play test file result", with a Timeout being the problem, observations point more toward the Hegel.

Did you try variations of the "Ignore transport events" and "Disable SetNext Support" settings to see if they eliminate the problems?

Obviously, given the dual role of the laptop at the moment, it would be better if you could leave the current setup and fix the issues. One or both of the above two settings may fix the problem. Or maybe Hegel would need to get involved.


However, if you don't eliminate the Hegel Renderer/Network Bridge in the audio chain there is still the issue of whether the Hegel Renderer is reporting its internal DAC capabilities or the Shiit capabilities. If there is a mismatch, which I suspect there would be, that could cause issues. Your current arrangement could also confuse the DRMA analysis as well. I don't know.

Let us know how you go. It all helps improve MC and/or help other users.

[JimH]

Here's how you can use quote tags.

[ quote ]
The text you want to quote goes here.
[ /quote ]
Your reply goes here.

Removing the spaces in the quote tags above, you will get this:

The text you want to quote goes here.

Your reply goes here.

[JimH]

I learned early on that JRiver really doesn't like it when there are other DLNA servers on the network - very glitchy.

We have 15 or 20 going all the time in the office and don't have problems.

[robland]

So I think the first time I ran the Media Renderer Analyser, JRiver was already playing something to the Hegel - that's why it timed out. User error.

Running the test again (image attached), the timeout error is gone. This is Hegel only acting as renderer/dac/amp. The dac loop and Schiit are deactivated/unplugged.

However, the download page for this tool has a link to download test files that's not working - https://www.whitebear.ch/dmra

Both links on the page download the .exe but no test files. So I'm not able to play any other files/tests.

[robland]

I've also compared all settings between MC22 and MC25 (again). I don't see any differences.

I'm simply using MC25 to bitstream to the Hegel renderer (or at least I hope I am) - image attached.

[robland]

Ah I just moved my laptop into the other room with the main system to hook it up directly to the Yggy, but I don't have a USB A to B cable.

To be continued...

[robland]

To follow up on this, I finally moved my laptop into the den with my main system and hooked up the computer directly to the Yggy via usb:

QNAP NAS <-> MC on Laptop acting as a DLNA Server > USB > Schiit DAC > analog XLR > Hegel 360 > speaker cable > Raidho monitors
                                              ^
                                Gizmo as DLNA Controller


To summarize, I've been having 3 issues with DLNA/ethernet connection:

1) Unable to hear first 30-60 seconds of a song due to streaming/stuttering
2) Playing now fails to repeat
3) Playback simply stops between tracks

Issues 2 & 3 are maddeningly intermittent; they come and go for no apparent reason. Issue 1 is more constant but still does not occur 100% of the time.

And as expected, eliminating DLNA and connecting directly to the DAC via USB made all these issues disappear. I say "as expected" because I've used 4 different DACs in this system, and they all have the same issues via ethernet, and they all do not have these issues via USB.

And now, Gizmo works as it should -- immediate response, no stuttering, and you can even use the progress bar at the bottom to jump backward/forward in the track playing -- via ethernet/DLNA, this progress bar on Gizmo never worked or did anything.

[robland]

On another thread, someone blamed the stuttering on the DAC, but I don't see how this can be accurate.

It seems clear to me that stuttering at the start of a song is due to how you *connect* or *send signal* to the DAC, not the DAC itself.

Is JRiver or DLNA at fault? No idea.

[robland]

So what have I learned? Well -

1) This forum isn't full of other JRiver users having these issues. Does this mean most users are using USB instead of ethernet/DLNA connections? Or is there some other factor specific to my setup? No idea.

2) The Hegel 360 passed the Media Analyzer test. There's no evidence in online forums of a common networking issue with the Hegel. To be clear, very occasionally (maybe once a month) the Hegel zone disappears from JRiver, indicating a networking issue where powering down/up the Hegel fixes the issue. With my current issues, the Hegel zone never disappears and connectivity is never lost, this they seem a different class of issue.

3) I'm inclined to think @blgentry is correct above - DLNA itself is at fault. Given my experiences, I would never recommend using ethernet over USB with JRiver. And I thank him for coming right out and saying it.

[robland]

Oh yeah, one last question - when connecting to the Schiit Yggy directly via USB, I disable the volume in JRiver.

What is the right way to control volume if you want to optimize audio quality?

Via ethernet, there was no volume setting, and Gizmo actually wound up controlling the volume of the Hegel directly, which was kinda nice. I don't seem to be able to replicate that via usb.

Also, the volume level via USB seems to be significantly lower -- say 20% or so -- than via ethernet. I'd rather get that back up to where it was.

[RoderickGI]

I don't use DLNA day to day with MC, basically because the combination of MC and my Sony TV, which would be my Renderer if I was to use DLNA, isn't robust enough. Brian is correct there, although a little harsh.  But also my TV as a Renderer isn't brilliant, so it is more a Renderer issue than a DLNA issue.

On your three points:
1. Stuttering is usually fixed by adjusting buffers, either up or down. That is an art. That is a whole other topic. You may want to research and try something there. We haven't mentioned it in this thread previously, by the look. The important buffers may have been on the Hegel and DAC, rather than in MC.
2. Is weird. It could be related to the DLNA connection reliability, particularly as it is intermittent.
3. Has been reported by others. I don't think there has been one solution yet, but increasing the buffers seems to help. There were issues with an OS version on a Pi Renderer, and a PC going to sleep I think. Search around.



Generally speaking, use Internal Volume and enable the "Option > Audio > Audio Device > Device Settings > Maximise device volume during playback". That should maximise the driver volume on the audio device (if there is one) and use MC to control the volume. But it is a good idea to maximise the volume to the DAC in your configuration. Although I actually use Internal Volume set to 80% in MC, just to give me a little headroom there. From memory Gizmo should control Internal Volume in your configuration.

I'm afraid that you only get the nice volume control of the Hegel when it is a DLNA Renderer. There is not way from within MC to control the Hegel volume when connected as you currently are, using USB > Schiit DAC > etc.

What I do is have my Harmony Remote set to control the volume on my AVR directly, using its IR commands. I guess you could do the same with Hegel, but that means you have to pick up the remote. If I use Gizmo to control volume on my HTPC, it is usually only to reduce volume. Rarely do I need to increase volume, and if I do, I have 20% to play with.


On the volume issue, other should speak up, as I'm no expert and my setup is a lot more simple than yours.

[JimH]

And as expected, eliminating DLNA and connecting directly to the DAC via USB made all these issues disappear. I say "as expected" because I've used 4 different DACs in this system, and they all have the same issues via ethernet, and they all do not have these issues via USB.

You've also eliminated the network and that may be where the problem is.

DLNA doesn't cause problems like stuttering.  Insufficient network bandwidth could.  Wifi interference, for example.  Trying to play DSD files over a slow connection, as another example.