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Author Topic: DSD native via HDMI  (Read 7311 times)

giva

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DSD native via HDMI
« on: October 24, 2019, 03:17:57 pm »

Hello,

I'm working with MC 21 and haven't been able to play DSD native via HDMI. Is this something that I will be able to do with MC 26?  Thanks!
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Awesome Donkey

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Re: DSD native via HDMI
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2019, 04:31:02 pm »

Nope.

DSD via HDMI from any sort of computer (PCs, Macs, Raspberry Pis, etc.) isn't possible. This is because no HDMI port on a computer whether it be on a motherboard, on a graphics card or whatever has any driver support whatsoever for DSD output over HDMI. DSD via HDMI is only possible when using something like a SACD capable DVD/Blu-ray player connected via HDMI to something like a receiver (like a Oppo, Sony, etc.) that supports DSD.

DSD from a computer only works via USB (from a computer via USB to a DSD capable DAC) depending on what the DAC supports the output whether it be native DSD and/or via DSD-over-PCM (DoP) or via DLNA via DSD-over-DLNA (DoPE).
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bmoura

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Re: DSD native via HDMI
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2019, 04:57:37 pm »

DSD from a computer only works via USB (from a computer via USB to a DSD capable DAC)

DSD from a computer also works via Ethernet (from a computer via Ethernet to a DSD capable DAC).....   :)
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Awesome Donkey

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Re: DSD native via HDMI
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2019, 05:03:25 pm »

Never had a DAC which supported that and it isn't that common and I'm not even sure if MC even supports DSD over ethernet at all in the first place. I'm inclined to think it doesn't because I've never seen a bitstreaming option for ethernet, just "normal" bitstreaming (which I'm not sure applies to ethernet) and DLNA bitstreaming (which I'm not sure applies to ethernet either) but please correct me if I'm wrong. That's why I omitted it from my list above and only mentioned the 2 methods I know work for MC.
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mojave

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Re: DSD native via HDMI
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2019, 05:40:10 pm »

Yamaha receivers and other brands support DSD via DLNA streaming over the network (wired or wireless). I know it worked fine starting with MC22 so it may work with MC21.
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dtc

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Re: DSD native via HDMI
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2019, 09:14:24 pm »

Never had a DAC which supported that and it isn't that common and I'm not even sure if MC even supports DSD over ethernet at all in the first place. I'm inclined to think it doesn't because I've never seen a bitstreaming option for ethernet, just "normal" bitstreaming (which I'm not sure applies to ethernet) and DLNA bitstreaming (which I'm not sure applies to ethernet either) but please correct me if I'm wrong. That's why I omitted it from my list above and only mentioned the 2 methods I know work for MC.

Look in Advanced in DLNA setup and you see an option to Bitstream DSD using DoPE (DoP over Ethernet).
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thecrow

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Re: DSD native via HDMI
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2019, 08:26:10 am »

Look in Advanced in DLNA setup and you see an option to Bitstream DSD using DoPE (DoP over Ethernet).

And without that box ticked and Audio Mode set to Original it is possible to stream native DSD over DLNA (which is what I do).
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Awesome Donkey

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Re: DSD native via HDMI
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2019, 11:03:45 am »

Groovy, great to hear!
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giva

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Re: DSD native via HDMI
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2019, 12:27:32 pm »

You people rock!  I have a Sony receiver that plays native DSD.  I've been using the USB input to play straight from a drive.  I paid 320.00 for A "B-stock" from Amazon (I think it was just a return) DN1080 7.1 receiver.  Anyway, I use it as a pre-pro (Padded down the speaker levels to line level).  You can't even buy a 2 channel SACD D/A for that, and it has ATMOS to boot.
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davewave

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Re: DSD native via HDMI
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2019, 04:36:22 pm »

Silly me.  Could you elaborate a bit on what settings were used to send the DSD over ethernet?  Do I need to use DLNA as the transport?

And do I send those to my Blu ray player or directly to the receiver?  The Blu Ray is an Oppo 103; the receiver is a Marantz 6012 which is capable of DSD direct.

If I do use DLNA, I saw a post somewhere that said I needed to login via DLNA from the Blu Ray player first.  If correct I presume that also applies to the receiver?

Also, can I send output from an ISO file directly or do I need to decode the files to DSD of DFF or what have you first?  Also, can I send multichannel or only stereo?


Thanks!

Thanks.
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thecrow

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Re: DSD native via HDMI
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2019, 06:20:48 am »

Silly me.  Could you elaborate a bit on what settings were used to send the DSD over ethernet?  Do I need to use DLNA as the transport?
Yes DLNA is the transport I use to stream DSD
And do I send those to my Blu ray player or directly to the receiver?  The Blu Ray is an Oppo 103; the receiver is a Marantz 6012 which is capable of DSD direct.
My equipment although not the same is very similar to yours, I have an Oppo 203 bluray and a Marantz 7012 receiver.
I stream DSD to both devices because each has its own advantages, the 7012 supports gapless DLNA but not multichannel and the Oppo supports multichannel but not gapless.
If I do use DLNA, I saw a post somewhere that said I needed to login via DLNA from the Blu Ray player first.  If correct I presume that also applies to the receiver?
You do not need to login when using DLNA, maybe you are thinking of accessing a network share from the Oppo?
Also, can I send output from an ISO file directly or do I need to decode the files to DSD of DFF or what have you first?  Also, can I send multichannel or only stereo?
Sending an ISO over DLNA does not work, you will need to extract the individual tracks as dsf files using something like iso2dsd.
JRiver DLNA does support multichannel but your renderer needs to support it too, your Marantz is stereo only but your Oppo should support it (my 203 does).

The settings to make DSD work are straight forward under Tools>Options>Media Network>Add or configure DLNA server> create a server where Audio Mode is set to Original and make sure under Advanced > Bitstream DSD is NOT ticked (this setting repacks the DSD as DoPE which neither of our devices supports, we need native DSD). Then under Playing Now right click your devices (Marantz and Oppo) and under Associate with DLNA server pick this new server.
You can get more precise later using Specified output format only when necessary instead of Original but I would recommend getting it working like this before making things more complicated.

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davewave

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Re: DSD native via HDMI
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2019, 11:46:23 pm »

Thecrow

That was super helpful to me and I suspect many others.  Thank you again
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JimH

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Re: DSD native via HDMI
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2019, 01:41:12 am »

thecrow,
Thank you.  I've added your post to the "More" links at the bottom of the DSD page on the wiki:
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD#More
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davewave

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Re: DSD native via HDMI
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2019, 09:02:41 am »

Yes DLNA is the transport I use to stream DSDMy equipment although not the same is very similar to yours, I have an Oppo 203 bluray and a Marantz 7012 receiver.

When you output audio from the HTPC via DLNA what is the input source on the Marantz?  Thanks.
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mojave

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Re: DSD native via HDMI
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2019, 10:58:57 am »

When you output audio from the HTPC via DLNA what is the input source on the Marantz?  Thanks.
You don't use a standard input source. You select HEOS Music and then select Music Servers. JRiver Media Center should show up as a music server.
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thecrow

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Re: DSD native via HDMI
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2019, 12:42:17 pm »

You don't use a standard input source. You select HEOS Music and then select Music Servers. JRiver Media Center should show up as a music server.
This does work and in this situation it is the Marantz pulling the music from MC.

But I find it much better to use MC to push music to the Marantz by either selecting the Marantz under Playing Now in MC or using an app on my phone, such as the HEOS app, as a controller to connect to the MC Server and push music to the Marantz. In these situations once the Marantz receives the signal over the network it automatically switches itself to the HEOS input. I even have my Marantz setup to automatically switch itself on if something pushes music to it over the network when it is switched off.
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landolfi

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Re: DSD native via HDMI
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2019, 05:55:36 pm »

Then under Playing Now right click your devices (Marantz and Oppo) and under Associate with DLNA server pick this new server.

I assume that in the case of a client/server JRiver setup, these settings all apply to the server. That is what I have been trying, but when I attempt to select my Marantz AV7705 from Playing Now on the server, the Associate with DLNA Server has only one entry, greyed out: "Only one server, used by default", so I can't select anything. The DLNA server is set up as additional DLNA server on the "Main Library" server but I don't see anywhere else I can select it. Did I miss a step?
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thecrow

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Re: DSD native via HDMI
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2019, 03:00:12 pm »

What you say sounds correct.
These settings apply to the server computer.
The message "Only one server, used by default" is what you would see if there was only a single DLNA server defined in MC.
Are you sure you created the extra DLNA server directly in your MC server?
Are there more than one server listed when you look in Tools>Options>Media Network>Add and configure DLNA servers...?
If so that sounds odd, have you tried closing the MC server and restarting it?
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landolfi

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Re: DSD native via HDMI
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2019, 08:46:13 pm »

First of all, thanks for the reply.

First thing I did was eliminate the client from the equation.

First question: It doesn't appear that JRiver distinguishes between library and server. I have a computer connected to a Marantz AV7705 via HDMI. Under "Playing from", that computer (DESKTOP-Blah) shows as a "library". So what I did was highlight that "library" and go to Tools/Options/Media Network. It was already checked as a DLNA server. It was there that I added the new Audio server. But what I get there is the same thing I get when I uncheck the DLNA box and recheck it, in my case Generic DLNA.

Am I creating the audio server correctly?
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thecrow

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Re: DSD native via HDMI
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2019, 03:01:57 pm »

Sorry it is not clear to me how your devices are setup/connected.
What you should do is go to the computer that is your MC server, that is the one where all your files are stored, that hosts the library that other devices connect to.
Then simply select Tools>Options>Media Network>Add or Configure DLNA Servers, then you should see a window similar to my attachment.
The top window lists the currently configured DLNA servers and to the right are two buttons "Add" and "Remove", click Add and select "Generic DLNA" this will add another DLNA server to the list, you can then highlight this new server and set the options in the window below to those that you require.
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landolfi

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Re: DSD native via HDMI
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2019, 12:14:15 pm »

Thanks for the reply!

I was just about to post that it took some doing, but I figured out that what looked like a big blank area at the top of the screen was actually the box listing the servers added. I couldn't see the list because every time JRiver showed that window, the list and the buttons were off the top of screen at my resolution.

So I did just as you describe, associated the Marantz with the added DLNA server, but it still doesn't work no matter what settings I use, DLNA/no DLNA, DLNA Extra/No DLNA Extra, Bitstream or no bitstream, etc. My setup is HDMI from an HTPC in to the Marantz. The only way I can get it to play SACD is to use the Player, but in that case I'm not using DLNA. Also using the player, it seems not to always recognize multichannel SACDs, Sometimes it works, but sometimes it's 2 channels. Foobar plays the same tracks that JRiver thinks are 2-channel just fine as 6-channel.

I'm using a Geforce GTX 1050Ti to send HDMI to the Marantz, maybe all this has something to do with that?
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Awesome Donkey

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Re: DSD native via HDMI
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2019, 02:13:12 pm »

As mentioned above in my first reply, you can't get DSD/SACD over HDMI working when using a computer like a PC, Mac, Raspberry Pi, etc. The GPU (doesn't matter if it's AMD, Nvidia, Intel, etc.) literally doesn't support DSD/SACD (or bitstreaming it), so it's not going to work that way.

Your only options for DSD are connecting it via USB (usually this is for USB DACs, I doubt the Marantz receiver supports this) and bitstreaming either native DSD or DoP, or (more than likely for the Marantz receiver) using DSD-over-DLNA aka DoPE. But it's not going to work over HDMI that way.

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,122704.msg849603.html#msg849603

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD#DSD_Over_DLNA
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landolfi

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Re: DSD native via HDMI
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2019, 04:25:36 pm »

So DSD-over-DLNA implies I can only get bitstream DSD on a client? Which is fine and what I was originally trying to do. I had the impression that the discussion just above (i.e., The Crow's instructions) would work for me too. But apparently that is true only when I am connecting to the JRiver server over DLNA, if I am understanding correctly, because I am using HDMI.

Any idea why my 6-channel stuff is playing as 2-channel and why I sometimes can play 176kHz tracks and sometimes it insists on downsampling to 96kHz? Maybe because some of them are recognized as 6-channel (the ones it wants to downsample) and some aren't (the ones it plays as stereo)? I was at first confused why it wanted to downsample everything until I realized that my sound card only supports up to 192kHz.

Thanks for the help.

EDIT: I think I have found my own answer reading an older discussion here about ISO not being supported over DLNA. I am trying to play SACD ISOs. It appears that my choices are now: Create DFFs/DSFs from the ISO images or allow JRiver to convert them to PCM. Any suggestion on which will sound better? All I care about is good sound quality. Will DFF/DSF allow the receiver to do the DA conversion?

I think the ISO image may be the reason I sometimes get 2-channel when multichannel is available, depending on the organization of the ISO image and which MC sees first.



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kr4

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Re: DSD native via HDMI
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2019, 10:06:55 am »

EDIT: I think I have found my own answer reading an older discussion here about ISO not being supported over DLNA. I am trying to play SACD ISOs. It appears that my choices are now: Create DFFs/DSFs from the ISO images or allow JRiver to convert them to PCM. Any suggestion on which will sound better?
I prefer the former for convenience although I often allow JRiver to convert them to PCM on-the-fly in order to use DSP.

Quote
Will DFF/DSF allow the receiver to do the DA conversion?
Yes, if the receiver is capable of it.

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Kal Rubinson
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eddyshere

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Re: DSD native via HDMI
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2019, 09:42:01 am »

Never had a DAC which supported that (DSD over ethernet)
It's not quite "ethernet" in an IP sense but more a i2s link which happens to be over RJ45 cable. Denon used that under their specific "denon link". It allowed DSD bitstreaming between their universal bluray player and AV receiver with very low jitter
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kr4

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Re: DSD native via HDMI
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2019, 10:43:26 am »

It's not quite "ethernet" in an IP sense but more a i2s link which happens to be over RJ45 cable. Denon used that under their specific "denon link". It allowed DSD bitstreaming between their universal bluray player and AV receiver with very low jitter
That's proprietary but one can stream DSD over LAN via RJ45 cable or WiFi with the appropriate devices.  I've done that using MC with exaSound playpoint devices as well as Oppo players (used as DAC or links).
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Kal Rubinson
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