Topic: HDR not working? (Read 6852 times)

JRU · « **on:** May 13, 2020, 02:48:46 pm »

I'm using JRiver 26 Red October HQ (nothing modified) on Windows 10 with a RTX2080Ti on a TCL 85P8M TV. I have also installed SVP but do not use it with JRiver, instead I use it separately with MPC. In MadVR When I use tonemapping then the colors are displayed correctly but there is no "HDR10" message from the TV and it doesn't really look like HDR I guess but when I use passthrough in MadVR then it is dull, brightness,contrast and color all seem dull, greyish dull, some scenes show some color but this color is still far below regular SDR so I would think that HDR is not working but when I play these HDR files with passthrough (and the send meta data option ticked) then the "HDR10" message is displayed by the TV. So it seems to me that somehow the TV is not displaying the content properly even though it is receiving a HDR signal and I can not figure out why, maybe my TV is not capable? Also I tried watching a few HDR videos on youtube but I think they were being displayed as SDR since they were displaying on an older SDR 1080p TV as well, there was some extra pop in those videos but I would still guess its normal SDR but dont know for sure. I leave windows as is and do not turn on HDR mode in windows. I am probably doing something wrong and have been trying to figure it out but no luck, would really appreciate some help/tips.

tij · « **Reply #1 on:** May 15, 2020, 04:14:06 pm »

HDR uses BT2020 color space ... no consumer display/projector can display/cover that color space both brightness wise and color wise.

So you need to map BT2020 to something that your TV can display. This is called tone mapping. Obviously there will be sacrifices during the process.

HDR video comes with metadata that helps TV to apply better tone mapping. Without that metadata TV will not do tone mapping.

That HDR logo you see on TV ... just indicate that TV is doing tone mapping ... it does not mean TV is switching to some magical mode that make picture look better (though most TV will crank up brightness if doing tone mapping)

MadVR can also do tone mapping ... dare I say better than any TV (certainly better than my LG E6) ... what MadVR guarantees is that during tone mapping - color/hue will be preserve ... my LG E6 for example introduces yellow/green hue when tone mapping very bright reddish scenes.

Now to MadVR option

1. Passthrough with no metadata ... no tone mapping is done by MadVR or TV ... image looks dull

2. Passthrough with metadata ... TV does tone mapping ... HDR logo pops up

3. MadVR do tone mapping with no metadata ... MadVR does tone mapping ... no HDR logo pops up

4. MadVR do tone mapping with metadata ... MadVR do tone mapping ... then TV do further tone mapping ... HDR logo pop up ... do not do this option - your video is compressed (this is what tone mapping actually does - compress video to something that your TV can display) twice

PS. most ppl see HDR logo pop up on TV and straight away perceive image as better ... it’s a placebo ... MadVR does much better job

JRU · « **Reply #2 on:** May 17, 2020, 04:22:49 pm »

Quote from: tij on May 15, 2020, 04:14:06 pm

HDR uses BT2020 color space ... no consumer display/projector can display/cover that color space both brightness wise and color wise.

So you need to map BT2020 to something that your TV can display. This is called tone mapping. Obviously there will be sacrifices during the process.

HDR video comes with metadata that helps TV to apply better tone mapping. Without that metadata TV will not do tone mapping.

That HDR logo you see on TV ... just indicate that TV is doing tone mapping ... it does not mean TV is switching to some magical mode that make picture look better (though most TV will crank up brightness if doing tone mapping)

MadVR can also do tone mapping ... dare I say better than any TV (certainly better than my LG E6) ... what MadVR guarantees is that during tone mapping - color/hue will be preserve ... my LG E6 for example introduces yellow/green hue when tone mapping very bright reddish scenes.

Now to MadVR option

1. Passthrough with no metadata ... no tone mapping is done by MadVR or TV ... image looks dull

2. Passthrough with metadata ... TV does tone mapping ... HDR logo pops up

3. MadVR do tone mapping with no metadata ... MadVR does tone mapping ... no HDR logo pops up

4. MadVR do tone mapping with metadata ... MadVR do tone mapping ... then TV do further tone mapping ... HDR logo pop up ... do not do this option - your video is compressed (this is what tone mapping actually does - compress video to something that your TV can display) twice

PS. most ppl see HDR logo pop up on TV and straight away perceive image as better ... it’s a placebo ... MadVR does much better job

In my case when I use pass through with metadata the image on the TV looks dull, if I use tone mapping then it looks decent. If I dont use meta data with passthrough then the TV does not display the HDR10 message and the image still looks dull. How do I make the TV look good/best it can with pass through and meta data enabled?

tij · « **Reply #3 on:** May 17, 2020, 10:20:37 pm »

What version of MC you are using? … can you post some screenshots

EDIT: what is your TV make and model ... mediainfo of your moviie file will be helpful too

JRU · « **Reply #4 on:** May 18, 2020, 02:39:11 pm »

I am using MC26. I have attached 2 images, one for tonemapping and one for passthrough, the passthrough one is dull.

I am using a TCL 85P8M TV. I do not know how to get/post mediainfo, if you can let me know then I will be happy to post it.

tij · « **Reply #5 on:** May 19, 2020, 02:56:14 am »

Which version of MC26 you are using?

and your passthrough screenshot - does HDR logo comes on when start playing?

JRU · « **Reply #6 on:** May 19, 2020, 02:58:58 pm »

I am using MC 26.0.73.

Yes, in passthrough mode the TV displays "HDR10" but the image is dull.

tij · « **Reply #7 on:** May 20, 2020, 07:15:16 am »

OK … so MC 23.0.73 has latest MadVR stable version 0.92.17

The only way to know what HDR supposed to look like is to watch in on monitor it was graded on (those are very high brightness professional monitors).

As I said before … no consumer display is even close to display full HDR … as that is the only thing we have - only option is tone map (compress HDR to what our TV/projector can display).

As there is no standard for tone mapping … the whole process is very subjective.

For example … very bright red explosion. You can: clip at what you cannot display - you retain color but loose highlights in very bright areas. You can also diffuse red (mix in blue and green light) - this will boost brightness and highlights will be visible in bright areas but you loose purity of color - red will be not as red anymore (most TV diffusing will also introduce color shifts too … for example it can introduce yellow hue and your red becomes orange).

Whole of the above is to underline that tone mapping is a very subjective area. What most will agree on is that tone mapping should not introduce color shifts - and that's what MadVR tone mapping guarantees - and that's why it is the best (my very own very subjective opinion

)

Now to your problem. If [passthrough HDR to display] with [output video in HDR format] ticked … and your TV kicks in HDR mode … and picture is crap - likely its your TV setting problem (I cannot help you there as I don't have your TV … only thing I suggest is read manual carefully)

Another way to test your TV - plug in your UHD bluray player and play your UHD disk ... if image is crap, its definitely your TV

For your posted MadVR tone mapping ... the picture looks fine - not sure what you are expecting ... I assume you are using [tone map HDR using pixel shaders] with [output video in HDR format] NOT ticked ... also couple of pointers here:
1. [target peak nits] should be set at a bit lower value than what your TV can output ... you can tweak this value till you like what you see (remember that tone mapping is subjective, so tweak it to your liking not somebody's liking) ... making it lower will increase brightness of picture but desaturate colors ... increasing value gives better color but lowest image brightness

2. In [calibration] setting ... for option [the display is calibrated to the following primaries/gamut] ... don't put BT2020 as your TV cannot cover it ... choose either BT709 (standard HD color) or DCI-P3 (if your TV can cover that)

EDIT: looks like you using PrintScreen to capture images ... better use camera/phone to take picture of your TV ... so can see what your TV display (that print screen of passthrough will be always dull as it is captured before your TV did tone mapping)

mojave · « **Reply #8 on:** May 20, 2020, 01:19:21 pm »

Quote from: tij on May 15, 2020, 04:14:06 pm

HDR uses BT2020 color space ... no consumer display/projector can display/cover that color space both brightness wise and color wise.

The UHDTV Standard includes four separate things:
4K Resolution
HDR - High Dynamic Range which defines the brightness of the image
PQ or HLG - Perceptual Quantizer (absolute) or Hybrid Log-Gamma (relative) are methods of relating HDR to the gamma
WCG - Wide Color Gamut - A display is required to reach 90% of the P3 color space (which is essentially Rec709). A mastering display is calibrated to the P3 colorspace, but UHD Blu-rays use the P3 colorspace inside a Rec2020 container. Many TV's and projectors can meet or get close to the P3 color space.

tij · « **Reply #9 on:** May 20, 2020, 02:21:15 pm »

Quote from: mojave on May 20, 2020, 01:19:21 pm

The UHDTV Standard includes four separate things:
4K Resolution
HDR - High Dynamic Range which defines the brightness of the image
PQ or HLG - Perceptual Quantizer (absolute) or Hybrid Log-Gamma (relative) are methods of relating HDR to the gamma
WCG - Wide Color Gamut - A display is required to reach 90% of the P3 color space (which is essentially Rec709). A mastering display is calibrated to the P3 colorspace, but UHD Blu-rays use the P3 colorspace inside a Rec2020 container. Many TV's and projectors can meet or get close to the P3 color space.

Lol ... what is labeled HDR display theses days still cannot display full HDR specs (most TV will quote their P3 % coverage because it’s much more impressive than what their BT2020 coverage is) ... and lack of standard for tone mapping makes it worst ... in a way this suits TV manufacturers as they can claim their tone mapping is better than others ... otherwise can not distinguish themselves from so many TVs

Original movies are mastered to P3 on P3 mastering monitors. But they are mastered for cinemas which have much lower brightness. These movies get remastered again for release on UHD on different mastering monitors (1000 and 4000nits I believe from Dolby or Sony) for viewing on much brighter screens in bright rooms. And while it’s true that during mastering, colorist might not extend colors beyond P3 for simplicity in most cases ... they certainly do add lots of brightness.

In the end ... colorist will try to make picture look best on his 1000/4000 nit display. I highly doubt they take into account how it will look on TV (otherwise they would have been mastering on that TV) ... it’s the job of the standard to specify how less capable consumer TV should display that ... and frankly HDR10 and HDR10+ are really lacking in this department. Dolby Vision done much better job at this.

Thumbs up to madshi and beta testers at AVS for trying to bring order to this chaos

JRU · « **Reply #10 on:** May 20, 2020, 03:03:40 pm »

The passthrough option does not have a output video in HDR option. I am inclined to agree that it is the fault of the TV as it does seem to go into HDR mode but the picture doesn't look normal.

"I assume you are using [tone map HDR using pixel shaders] with [output video in HDR format] NOT ticked"

That is correct, by ticking the output video in HDR option the picture becomes worse.

The posted screenshots accurately represent what I see on the TV.

I watched a few 4K videos on Youtube and they displayed fine and had lots of "pop". I watched it through Chrome on my PC and not via the TV app. I figure that it is still displaying the image as SDR?

tij · « **Reply #11 on:** May 20, 2020, 11:39:50 pm »

If HDR logo comes in passthrough ... and it looks nuts ... it’s TV ... when TV runs in that mode try changing TV picture settings - you might be missing something

4K on YouTube ... especially demos ... are usually overly saturated colors ... TVs in shops runs at overly saturated modes too to impress potential buyers with “vivid” colors (aka overly saturated colors) ... my LG E6 has demo mode specifically designed for that purpose ... obviously I don’t use that

If watching on Chrome in windows ... then it is not HDR video ... at least I don’t think so

For MadVR tone mapping ... try changing [target nits] setting to see what best suits you ... honestly MadVR tone mapping is superb on par with the likes of Lumagen ... forget about HDR logo popping on TV - it’s placebo

JRU · « **Reply #12 on:** May 22, 2020, 04:27:07 pm »

I see, then it probably is the TV.

I did try some settings with the tonemapping to see what I liked.

Thanks for the help.

If one were to look for a display that properly displays HDR, even a professional one, which one is recommended? I understand they may be expensive, but just to understand what is required we can set aside price for now. I'm not buying anything, just curious.

mojave · « **Reply #13 on:** May 22, 2020, 05:51:37 pm »

Quote from: JRU on May 22, 2020, 04:27:07 pm

I see, then it probably is the TV.

I did try some settings with the tonemapping to see what I liked.

Thanks for the help.

If one were to look for a display that properly displays HDR, even a professional one, which one is recommended? I understand they may be expensive, but just to understand what is required we can set aside price for now. I'm not buying anything, just curious.

Flanders Scientific XM310K, Canon DP-V3120, TV Logic LUM-310

The following ASUS models: PA27UCX, PA27UCX-K, PA32UCX, PA32UCX-K, PA32UCX-P, and PA32UCX-PK

The best consumer display is probably an LG C9 or CX OLED.

tij · « **Reply #14 on:** May 22, 2020, 11:48:29 pm »

Professional grading monitors are not for consumers ... relatively small screen sizes ... generate lots of heat to get those 4000nits ... likely not HDCP compliant ... require regular calibration for reference display ... and usually ugly looking

Big manufacturers like Sony, LG, Samsung have good tone mapping. But if want best ... lumagen and MadVR envy scalers are way to go if have tons of cash. Otherwise, HTPC with MadVR and decent GPU will certainly imho outperform any TV tone mapping.

As for best TV ... depends on your intended use ... if watch movies in dark room, nothing beats OLED from likes of LG for their super duper black levels. If multipurpose use (movie, games, sport, regular TV) in normal rooms, Samsung QLED would be better option as they are generally much brighter ... which is needed in bright rooms where black levels don’t matter much ... plus regular TV and gaming tend to burn in OLED which normal LED like QLED are more immune.

PS. If money is not an issue ... for dark rooms Christie Eclipse projector ... for any purpose Samsung LED walls

darky · « **Reply #15 on:** May 24, 2020, 02:15:22 am »

@jru

what settings do you use in madvr general settings?
I had similar problems at first. But after reading here and on doom9 forums...I only enabled Use direct3d 11 for presentations and disabled the rest. ( and reduced the queue sizes a bit)

Might not work for you though. I had an AMD graphics card before and I needed to enable also "enable automatic fullscreen excl mode" for that.

Doesn't hurt to try.

JRU · « **Reply #16 on:** May 24, 2020, 02:22:10 pm »

I see, thanks for letting me know about the displays, this helps me understand a little more. I have one question though, do store TV displays use HDR or SDR? They always run those demos with lots of "pop" so is that HDR?

darky, could you please elaborate on these settings, particularly where to find them? I don't touch/tweak madVR or any of the video settings in JRiver. I just set it to Red October HQ and only touched the settings about the passthrough and tonemapping, that's it.

darky · « **Reply #17 on:** May 25, 2020, 11:49:08 am »

store tv's have a special mode that show all the bright colors.
They might even describe in the manual how to start it.
That is not HDR.

Ctrl+O ( for options)
Video
General video settings> open madvr settings ( advanced)

then madvr opens
rendering>general settings

and perhaps
in madvr

>devices ( your tv)
properties
the native display bitdepth = 10

_______
not saying it works for you. But it did for me.Guess all hardware is not perfect to obey all laws

JRU · « **Reply #18 on:** May 25, 2020, 02:25:51 pm »

Thanks, I tried it but it didn't work. It didn't seem to make any difference to the picture that I could see.

rec head · « **Reply #19 on:** May 26, 2020, 04:02:43 pm »

@tij - Very helpful explaining video setup as usual. I played with Tone Mapping settings today. It is nerve racking not having the HDR flag come up on my TV but it looked good. AFAIK we are both using the 2016 E6P. What NIT level are you using? I didn't play with that at all, left it at 500. I did need to turn down the brightness on my TV a couple steps to get the blacks back.

Thanks

tij · « **Reply #20 on:** May 26, 2020, 05:13:23 pm »

I think its on 480 nits ... read somewhere that below 480 setting ... madVR will start compressing 0-100nits range

setting that value to around 600 makes Finding Nemo scene at the docks with sea gull a bit dark

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Author Topic: HDR not working? (Read 6852 times)