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[JimH]

I've been thinking about this for a while.  When I want to watch a movie and the hour is getting close, my blood pressure rises a little.

First I turn on the equipment.  Receiver, TV, and PC.  That's usually the easy part, though most other people in the house find it baffling.

Then I start a browser.  Usually Chrome.  Then I can't remember what it was I wanted to watch.  I realize this is a special problem that only people over 70 (gasp) have.

Where was I?  OK.  I remember.  I want to watch Peter Gunn.  I bought the series on Amazon... or maybe it was Netflix.  Go back and search on Google for "Movie Peter Gunn".  This is a key point and Google does a fairly good job.  It shows me the movie I want, where it's available, and the price.

I can usually find it, but there is lately still another problem.  Chrome isn't working.  I think it's because they decided Flash support was going to be discontinued, but I haven't bothered to try to find the reason.  I just switch to Internet explorer... after I've done it wrong again by trying Chrome.

Now I'm at Amazon (or some other place) and they've decided I need to log in again.  Fine.  I've done this every night for a few weeks.  It used to keep me logged in.  But fine.

"Honey, your dinner is getting cold."  "Be there in just a minute."  I'm lying but maybe she won't notice.

Now, what really bugs me is that I have to search for "Peter Gunn" at Amazon and then I get a lot of stuff.  I have to remember what season and episode I'm on and find it.

With some luck I'm there before my dinner is in the dog's dish.

Once we start to watch, the screen goes black a couple of times when the service switches into some mode that makes sense to it -- maybe it's for copy protection.  Then we get the pre-amble we've watched in every episode for the last couple weeks, then the movie starts.

Still not done though.  The cursor stays on the screen, and if the cursor is at the bottom the menu stays up too.  And the browser needs to be set to full screen.

MC can capture the sound with our WDM driver so that my Media Center remote's volume works, but the navigation won't work.  If the movie was playing in JRiver, I could pause it with the OK key on the remote and resume it again by doing the same.  I could fast forward and rewind, just like a VCR!

But when the movie is played in a browser, only the keyboard can do any navigation.  Space bar might pause and resume.  It might not.   Each service has a different idea of what the interface should be.

All I can say about this is "Ugh".  It stinks.

Am I alone here? 

Because I have a plan.  It's going to take a lot of money, but I have a plan.

[daveman]

I want to hear your plan.....  ? ?

[JimH]

I want to hear your plan.....  ? ?

Thanks, but I want to hear if anyone else is feeling the pain.  Maybe it's just me.

[wer]

A lot of people who are in that boat, and want it work without a lot of faffing about, just use AppleTV or a Roku or something like that. They don't have a PC hooked up to their main TV to even have that problem.

Even DVRs from cable companies, or the Dish Hopper or DirecTV Genie, have voice remotes that will search streaming services.

You just say "Watch Iron Man" to your remote, and it finds it on Netflix or rents it via PPV.  A lot of SmartTVs have that search functionality built in too now.

I don't have that issue.

[Surfacing8671]

i feel your pain 10 fold.

[RoderickGI]

I am feeling the pain for catchup channels from TV broadcasters. I don't use Netflix, Amazon, et al, yet, so don't have that issue.

As far as I can see none of the providers or third parties are going to provide a "consolidated view" of media available from all sources, let alone provide a one stop package price for access. Even Google falls down in the searching.

If MC could consolidate available media from multiple sources and allow me to do reasonably complex searches for something to watch, I would probably use that. Depends on the cost and difficulty. I don't use or need voice activation yet. My Logitech turns all equipment on and off with one button press. Often I don't use the WDM Driver for audio from YouTube and other browser based sources.

I have Views that show me episodes of my favourite series that I haven't watched yet. Once watched they disappear from the View. If those episodes appeared in MC based on availability on a catchup TV services, that would be easier. Although frankly, FTA TV is taking less of my interest these days, except for stuff I record. The SBS On Demand (free) service is pretty good in Australia. The paid services I don't use, yet.

So, world domination through consolidation of sources, best pricing, and packaged sources?

[wer]

As far as I can see none of the providers or third parties are going to provide a "consolidated view" of media available from all sources, let alone provide a one stop package price for access. Even Google falls down in the searching.

That's exactly the long term plan for both Amazon Channels and AppleTV, (especially Apple) combined with consolidated payment.  Apple wants to sell access to all the premium streaming services, taking their cut just like they do with the app store.

[fitbrit]

Yes, I understand your pain. And at least two dozen MC using customers that do too.

[Manfred]

In the meantime its a real pain. I was watching "Profiling Paris" on Amazon, but to watch the last four seasons I had to get an account on maxdome. My feeling is that at a certain point consumers would not accept it any more to have multiple accounts to watch a certain series or movie. Also a real pain in the Apple world is, that if you buy a movie like Taylor Swift concert, you can download it but its only playable using the Apple technologies . I accept DMR but then their should be an open DMR available so that you can play content on player of choice.

I use the Smart App's on my TV for streaming services and have accepted that audio is routed directly via optical to my Devialet (No MC DSP processing).

[Hilton]

Hi Jim
I feel your pain and have done for years. My significant other and daughter also dont have the knowledge or patience so it's all apps for them too now.
I havent had a PC connected to the TV for at least 3 years, with only my media room Projector or workstation PC is being used for PC based media consumption.

It is for these reasons and many more that I've resorted to mostly Apps on the smart TV or even the Nvidia Shield on the projector for most things things now.
The other App and server product I use on the TV and Nvidia Shield isnt upto MC standards, but it's become good enough, handling 4K HDR tonemapping or passthrough, audio transcoding or passthrough and it's a pleasure to use.

If I'm at my PC, it's always MC that I use, and if it's my own audio collection, there's no other product near MC quality or capability.... but... everywhere else is now an APP. Its just easier, it works and I can, as others have said, search with Google Assistant and it will tell me if it's in my library, or on Google or wherever, and I can then select and play it. All using my Harmony Elite Remote. 

As I get older I realise I dont mind fiddling with things when thats what I want to do, but when I want to watch a movie or listen to music, I just don't have the patience anymore.

[thorsten]

Hi Jim,

I feel with you. My home cinema is easy, 3 clicks and everything is running (mc theater view).
But Amazon prime is really difficult: firetv stick is a real pain (if you don‘t want to talk to Alexa) and you never know, if it is prime or pay-per-view...
I use DAZN, it is working fairly good with WDM driver but the same with controlling it: sometimes you need the keyboard, sometimes it works with flirc.
I don‘t have Netflix, With also one point is the interaction.

Looking forward for your dream, even if it costs some additional money.

BR,

Thorsten

[phleeb]

Therein lies all the issues of streaming.  I stream also but there is nothing better than flipping through channels on satellite TV or cable with your remote. Yea I'm an old man but one must be patient to stream.

[EdBrady]

Jim, it sounds like you need to convince the guy who runs JRiver to add streaming service capability to MC. I'm pretty sure I've seen him say it will never happen though!

[JimH]

So here's the idea in a very simple way.

There are two stages.

1.  Build a front end that searches for movies, keeps login information for multiple services, gets metadata, plays trailers, and then plays the movie you select.  It also keeps track of where you've been and what you played.  For playback, it uses a browser.

and (if that's successful)

2.  It eventually morphs into a movie delivery framework.  It can connect to services much more directly if they permit, but it can deliver its own movies, starting with the easy stuff like public domain material, documentaries, foreign films, etc., then adding movie studio content.

This second project would include well defined interfaces on all sides, so that other software players could plug into it.  It would include all of the accounting needed to compensate rights owners.

It would take a lot of money to do.

[Hilton]

Check this out Jim. (never thought I'd see Jim cave to the dark side)

https://www.justwatch.com/

[JimH]

Check this out Jim. (never thought I'd see Jim cave to the dark side)

I've never thought streaming was evil.   It's just been impossible for us to find a way to make money at it.  Without making money, it's hard to do.

[1maynard]

I would really be interested in this if you can make it work and it is a simplified setup so the wife can use. Please keep us posted.

[Manfred]

Jim,

its a nice idea!

1.  Build a front end that searches for movies, keeps login information for multiple services, gets metadata, plays trailers, and then plays the movie you select.  It also keeps track of where you've been and what you played.  For playback, it uses a browser.

and (if that's successful)

But I don't think it will work, because you are ever behind of the mass of the streaming provider, they change an API or other thinks and you must follow them and sometimes you are not allowed to do it (DRM). It would be better if you could playback local content with high quality video audio playback in the App's of amazon and Netfllix.

I am happy to control and playback amazon prime, maxdome through my LG smart TV. Also PQ for movies and series is quiet good - I could live with it. If I would start from scratch I would have audio (specially DSD) local and music concerts on BD ripped to mkv local. But not so many series and movies any more.

Currently my LG TV is directly connected to my DAC.

What I am missing, that it is not possible to simple reroute audio from TV to the MR.  There is no pcie card which uses HDMI ARC and could be used simple by MC (my knowledge).

[park]

I think the ultimate solution of jriver were somehow able to make a contract with one of the big cloud video services  to get api access to their library. Users would still subscribe to that service directly and independently of jriver.
JRiver would be offering the users the ability to tag the cloud library to their personal taste allowing the cloud files to look like they are part of our personal libraries, and media center playback.

[MikeO]

I use a cheap streamer for video, has a dedicated button for Netflix, and Kodi so getting to stuff is quite simple , one button then navigation

The bit that’s missing in my JRiver eco system is how to get Tidal to my DAC and hence to the headphone and speakers. Same for IDAGIO and Primephonic, Amazon Music etc

I am lucky my CXN has Tidal support but navigation is poor ...

[JimH]

The bit that’s missing in my JRiver eco system is how to get Tidal to my DAC and hence to the headphone and speakers. Same for IDAGIO and Primephonic, Amazon Music etc

Please start a thread on this.  You can solve it by using MC's WDM Driver.  It's on the wiki.

[stewart_pk]

I've been feeling this pain for years now.
And not just with film/video services but music services too such as Spotify. 
Streaming is not the future; steaming is now and has been the now the last few years.
Disc/file playback is a legacy of the past albeit when I do it on the rare occasion via JRiver it's a proper user experience compared to using the WDM driver and whatever app/browser sending audio to it.

[stewart_pk]

Because I have a plan.  It's going to take a lot of money, but I have a plan.

I'm really excited to hear this.
Well not that it's going to take a lot a money (I wish it wouldn't).
I really want JRiver needs to consider streaming as one of the most important features.
And not just because I want it but for its long term relevance/survival.
As evidenced by this thread there are users reverting to devices other than a HTPC running JRiver.

Just wondering, do you switch resolution and/or refresh rate of your display device to match the content of streaming services?
I manually do this albeit a script that runs after a button press of my media remote which prompts me to select the resolution and refresh rate I want.
Just to illustrate a reason why, I like to run my desktop at 1080P/60Hz but want to change my resolution to 4K/23.97Hz so that the Netflix/Microsoft Films & TV apps facilitate 4K streaming and the refresh rate matched to (most) of the content.

[syndromeofadown]

I don't feel your pain. Use Firefox, setup the bookmark toolbar, setup the privacy options to remember your login info. If you can't remember where you are in a series then write it down.

I don't think there is enough quality content to justify creating a program to search it. I can count the decent shows I have watched that are made by a streaming service on one hand, and I watched most of them on bluray. OK maybe 2 hands. With the fragmentation of streaming it seems like a daunting task. It feels more like something that should be done as a plugin that's made by a massive open source community. Which would also make the price for such product suitable for most that stream. Zero.

I can see potential in customizing a browser built into MC to remember logins, remap playback controls for consistency, and routing audio through MC. But maybe that's exactly what you are planning and I'm just imagining your plan to be more grandiose that what you intend.

It eventually morphs into a movie delivery framework.  It can connect to services much more directly if they permit, but it can deliver its own movies, starting with the easy stuff like public domain material, documentaries, foreign films, etc., then adding movie studio content.

This second project would include well defined interfaces on all sides, so that other software players could plug into it.  It would include all of the accounting needed to compensate rights owners.

It would take a lot of money to do.

I can't imagine movie studios ever letting their content be viewable. They are in the business of controlling media not liberating it.

I see value in a delivery framework for public domain content. I also see value in being a front end for the the likes of Patrean, Bandcamp, Gaia, etc. But if you enter the business of media indexing and delivery may also be entering into the business of censorship and moderation. By simply making browser add-ons it can be avoided.

[Peter M]

Apple TV for streaming.

JR MC for ripped movies.

Sony X-800 for discs.

No pain at all.

[stewart_pk]

MC can capture the sound with our WDM driver so that my Media Center remote's volume works, but the navigation won't work.  If the movie was playing in JRiver, I could pause it with the OK key on the remote and resume it again by doing the same.  I could fast forward and rewind, just like a VCR!

But when the movie is played in a browser, only the keyboard can do any navigation.  Space bar might pause and resume.  It might not.   Each service has a different idea of what the interface should be.

Using key-mapping software and utilizing application specific profiles I've partially overcome this in that basic play/pause/skip back & forward 10 seconds has been achieved.
Albeit far from the user experience that JRiver provides playing video content.

[landiepete]

Ah, this is what is scientifically known as a 'rabbit hole', isn't it ? It has many exits, most of them where you don't expect.

I have used computers since 1978, and have watched - and used - every single next step of integration in office, industrial, gaming, utility, tooling and every other variation on implementation you care to imagine. Or not.

There is a recurring pattern. A problem presents itself, for which a singular solution is devised (let's say, for the sake of discussion, someone would like to play a 'sound file'). Pretty soon, someone is going to come along saying 'this is great, and if we add that we could do that too (let's say store several sound files on one computer). Then someone will want to search them. Then someone will want to view a video. Then someone remarks 'wouldn't it be nice if I have a sound clip I could find the associated videoclip'. After which, if you could play a clip, maybe you could play a movie. I leave the rest to your imagination. As time moves on, more and more extras, expansions, new possibilities, novelties etc. get bolted on. Then someone says they have more than one computer. And it starts over. Of course, the purveyors of this multimedia bonanza explicitly DO NOT want things to be all access. The number of viewers is limited, their budgets are limited, so they want lock-in. All of them. Untill someone finds yet another niche they think they can monetize, and think up yet another 'unique' service. And so it goes on.
It happened with itunes, untill even Apple themselves realized they couldn't make it work properly anymore, and they cut it up. And this is a company which controls its own ecosystem.  Imagine dealing with Linux, where every Tom, Dick and Harry their own spin on the underlying gears as well. And every time one of the providers changes something, you have to fiddle with the entire mechanics. Netflix now works again, but Amazon, Tidal, Qubuz and the local digital providers are broken.

I think eventually there's going to be an MC music, and MC Movies, an MC books, and MC stamps for all I know. Unless everyone decides they're all going to go back to 3 national broadcasting channels.

[drmimosa]

Really great post, Jim. In the past, I have often felt the same about digital media.

I installed a Roku streamer in our house in March. Honestly, it's fantastic. As a test today, I ran a general a search for Peter Gunn. Within minutes, I was watching episode 1 on our Amazon Prime account.

I think I echo a few other people on this thread by saying this, definitely check out Roku search and Apple TV search first before a making a huge capital investment. You might be trying to solve a problem (searching multiple subscription streaming video services for content) that the market already solved.

I really enjoyed watching the Peter Gunn episode, by the way. I've played the Mancini score many times at gigs over the years, but today was the first time I sat down and watched it. Thank you.

[Castius]

I can certainly feel your pain.

"Playon" tryied to do this. I stop using it because it was unreliable and there were limited to 720. But mostly the unreliable.

It's not fair how hard they make it. to have a reasonable experience for users. They all want a cut and everyone is suffering for it. Especially the artist. I wish we had a good "A bugs life" moment and the ants would stand together.

[thorsten]

I looked up roku. Aaaaand: only in the u.s. and uk 

Again lost in germany.

So, there might be a system that already does what Jim is thinking about, but not worldwide. Therefore, the position for a worldwide system is still vacant