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[MikeO]

Whilst Radio Paradise , CloudPlay etc form a valuable part of MC they are restricted to "what is served up" almost randomly .However there are many "On Demand" services where the users selects an Album, Track or Artist as if they were a part of the local library.

In this way it is possible to listen music without purchasing and storing it locally. I am sure many users, especially young uesr, are doing this and no longer purchasing actual media (soft or hard)

Of course I am alluding to the likes of Spotify , Deezer, Tidal, Qobuz , Idagio, Primephonic and more latterly and probably more importantly Amazon HD Music.

I know all the arguments against this a its been debated long and hard in the past. The financial stability of these services can be debated but as i see it the entrance of Amazon into this arena spells a major change , I am sure Google and Apple will sit up soon and take notice as Amazon erodes their market offering CD quality to boot.

The Feature Request is to add some maybe not all of the above to be accessible and more importantly Playable through MC. Tidal, Qobuz and Amazon all serve FLAC at CD if not better quality (Idagio & Primephonic are more restricted in that they are both classical only). Tidal would be my first prize as the other 2 are not available in my country (South Africa) at this stage.

Currently all these services provide their own app and can be played easily but normally only to the local device. There appears few ways to get the stream into the Hi Fi systems that MC support which defeats the object of Hi Res or CD quality streams if the only outlet is a Cell Phone or Tablet.The MC WDM Driver seems not to allow this

It is to me a show stopper and an area where JRiver as a product is losing out and will continue to lose out to its opposition.

Integration of these services would greatly add to the attraction of MC especially if controllable through JRemote or other control apps eg MConnect

My 2 penneth , not meant to be contentious simply hoping to align MC with the current media market place by filling this gap.

[EnglishTiger]

Even though Amazon have not yet launched their "HD Music Service" here in the UK they have already made a lot of changes to their own, highly user unfriendly interface, to allow "Downloading of Amazon Content for Playing Off-Line on any suitable device". However there is a very big difference between "Music You Have Purchased" and that which you "Just Want To Listen To". Purchased music gets downloaded as Media Files (in the UK MP3 files) that can be played on any Media Player you may have installed on your PC; But "Music You Just Want To Listen To" gets downloaded in an "Amazon Proprietary Format" that only the Amazon Music Player can read/play. The only other new thing is that in both Online and Offline Mode the Amazon Music Player can now play any Music Files that Windows Media Player has knowledge of. On my PC WMP and MC both access the same Music Library and all of my media files are in FLAC format. Both WMP12 and MC play them as Flac Files but the darn Amazon Music Player "does an on the fly" conversion into MP3 format when playing them; Plus all of my files have embedded artwork and lyrics yet neither of those show up if, and when, I'm stupid enough to play them via Amazon Music Player.

So the chances of being able to Stream Amazon Media/Audio Content in any Media Player other than their own are probably even lower than they are for the "Proverbial Hell Freezing Over"

[MikeO]

Maybe Amazon was a bit ambitious , Tidal and Qobuz is not

[Awesome Donkey]

Considering what went down when JRiver added Tidal support years ago and the reason(s) why they removed it, I doubt that situation has changed any.

[MikeO]

Didn't realize they did, what happened. Tidal streaming seems very stable in Roon so why not MC?

[Awesome Donkey]

Do a search of the forums, it's been discussed multiple times in the past few years. Those reason(s) are likely why Qobuz support was never pursued either (that and it wasn't available in the US until not too long ago), because you know, once bitten twice shy.

Amazon Music could be doable, but... it's Amazon, there's no way they have a public API for this. If anything, it looks like Amazon cherry picks who they partner with to add support for their services.

[JimH]

Mike,
If I'm not mistaken,  you've asked for Tidal support several times.

As Awesome Donkey said, we did it years ago.  They were unpleasant to work with and demanded control of the interface.  I also view them as a future bug on a windshield. 

We've done integrations with such services about twenty times.  None of them lasted. They're messy to do and to support.  They don't last.  We don't have any financial incentive to do them.  And so on.

If Amazon wanted to do an integration and paid us to do it, we'd probably do it.

[amdismal]

What I don't understand is that the free music server software that I use, Logitech Media Server, has full Spotify family, Tidal and Qobuz integration, and it's basically all done by one guy part time. It works well - it now integrates your Qobuz favourites into your main library. I don't know if he has some magic 'in' with these companies, but he has created a good, working solution.

Meanwhile the music server software that I pay for, MediaCenter, does not have any meaningful online integration. It has a number of coders who work on it, but the system that will obviously become standard for music reproduction, streaming from your provider of choice, is not something that appears to be under development at all.

I know it's a bit of a hassle with competing providers (I guess there's Apple and Amazon as well as those I mentioned, and presumably Google is becoming YouTube Music), but this is how I listen to music now. I haven't bought a CD in years, and I've bought many thousands in my time.

It doesn't have to be super swish, just play the music. Getting it from elsewhere and using the WDM has always been unreliable.

Make it premium if you like. I'm considering moving to Roon, which is real money every month. Ask me for £50 extra per year and I wouldn't think twice about it; a tenner a month would probably make me hold out all of a half hour or so.

[JimH]

amdismal, You seem to have lots of other ways to solve the problem.

[Hendrik]

What I don't understand is that the free music server software that I use, Logitech Media Server, has full Spotify family, Tidal and Qobuz integration, and it's basically all done by one guy part time.

The big difference is that it is free. If you are a company with a commercial software, you can't just do unofficial integration for streaming services, as you open yourself up to being sued.

Open-source software not making a profit from such an integration is not really worth sueing over. So they use reverse engineered clients to streaming services, and just slide by under the radar.

In short, we don't get to do the quick unofficial solution, if we ever do anything it would need to be done proper. And that then includes obeying the limitations from the content providers - which are often asinine.

[RD James]

This is yet another reason why I would like to see Media Center integrate AirPlay 2 support; both as a transmitter and receiver.
As a receiver, you don't have to worry about flaky WDM drivers, web clients, or app support on PC; you cast it from your phone.
As a transmitter now MC can hook into a simple multi-room audio solution that works reliably. Integration with MC means it could support playback commands, which stand-alone AirPlay transmitter apps cannot do.
 
But I don't think Apple have an open/public API for AirPlay yet, even though they do license it out to other companies (TVs, sound bars, and smart speakers are all starting to integrate it now) which means that JRiver are unlikely to touch it.
 

What I don't understand is that the free music server software that I use, Logitech Media Server, has full Spotify family, Tidal and Qobuz integration, and it's basically all done by one guy part time.

Logitech are a billion-dollar corporation.
Even if they only have one guy handling LMS development, they have the contacts/access to get support from these companies, and can pay to sink money into it even if it ends up not being a long-term thing.

[amdismal]

No sorry, I don't buy that. It says "Logitech" on the box, and they are a whole lot bigger than JRiver and much more sue-able.

Edit: I was replying to Hendrik

[Awesome Donkey]

Doing an integration like that doesn't take much time to do at all, I seem to recall JRiver got Tidal integration working within a day.

Ultimately the issue boils down to legal mumbo jumbo voodoo magic like the legal agreements. Jim said above Tidal wanted (demanded) control of the interface, which JRiver was not willing to do. A US-based company like JRiver can't just add Tidal, Qobuz, Amazon Music, Spotify, Netflix, Hulu, Disney+, etc. integration because if they did without any sort of agreement in place, they'd get sued into oblivion.

The Logitech Media Server developer(s) likely made agreements with those streaming services (and likely gave control over the interface in Tidal's case) to add support.

[Awesome Donkey]

No sorry, I don't buy that. It says "Logitech" on the box, and they are a whole lot bigger than J River and much more sue-able.

They likely made the agreement(s), paid the licensing, etc. for those services to be added.

[JimH]

I don't think that the Logitech Media Server has any affiliation with Logitech any longer.

Look at the number of products/companies already mentioned above.  We can't support them all. 

We're just going to do our own thing and do it as well as we possibly can.

[amdismal]

One guy, possibly paid by Logitech (and hence having access to their name), possibly just working in his evenings, and he has three of the main services well integrated.

You can of course do your own thing, but it really wouldn't surprise me if your income started to reduce. I haven't upgraded from MC24 yet, but if you had this service then I'd happily pay a monthly sub or mandatory annual upgrade sub.

[RD James]

I don't think that the Logitech Media Server has any affiliation with Logitech any longer.
Look at the number of products/companies already mentioned above.  We can't support them all.  We're just going to do our own thing and do it as well as we possibly can.

I'm pretty sure they're still owned by Logitech. There's no way they would be allowed to continue operating under that name if they were not.
Their Twitter account, which is still active, has been updated to the new Logitech branding as well.
And it's still listed on the Logitech status page: https://status.logitech.com/
 
Like I said above: the difference is that they're owned by a multi-billion dollar corporation, even if LMS specifically only has a very small development team, which gives them access to the resources required to make these deals and integrate all those services.
 

One guy, possibly paid by Logitech (and hence having access to their name), possibly just working in his evenings, and he has three of the main services well integrated.

The issue is not development time, but resources and licensing deals.

[Awesome Donkey]

If Amazon wanted to do an integration and paid us to do it, we'd probably do it.

Ever reach out to Amazon to see if they would? Surely Jeff Bezos could afford it.

[JimH]

You can of course do your own thing, but it really wouldn't surprise me if your income started to reduce.

Our sales have been increasing.  I can't say why, but you don't need to worry about JRiver.

[Awesome Donkey]

Roon is a newer company than J River, probably about a similar size but has managed to integrate and have a deal with both Tidal and Qobuz.

Yes, because they were likely willing to compromise on the control of the interface with the legal agreement they made. That's what it comes down too - JRiver could've done (and actually did) Tidal too, but they weren't willing to compromise on interface control. You can't expect everyone to always compromise on things which they feel are unacceptable.

Otherwise, I think this discussion is going in circles. It's been explained why it hasn't happened.

[JimH]

Roon is a newer company than J River, probably about a similar size but has managed to integrate and have a deal with both Tidal and Qobuz.

Please use JRiver, not J River.  We changed the name a while back so it would work better with searches.

[JimH]

Otherwise, I think this discussion is going in circles. It's been explained why it hasn't happened.

Yes

[michael123]

I would like to see more native integration of JRiver probably best on the market playback facilities - with frontends

I would like to have same streaming facilities almost every owner of the streamer HW has now - Spotify, Roon Ready, Tidal, etc.

Like many others I don't like the WDM solution

[michael123]

I struggle to understand why anonymous streamer can do it, and JRiver - where all HiFi and Hi-End audio manufactures use it - can't

Ecosystem means something of closed origin, like Apple devices. I don't like personally these ecosystems, you invest your time in money in it, and then it is all burnt.

Like I had previously SlimDevices Squeezebox then Transporter, then it just became more or less a brick without proper support

JRiver is supported, but for how long you can add features to such a mature product?

The advantage IMHO is in versatility.

[Awesome Donkey]

I know all the excuses of the team 'why not', but still struggle to understand why anonymous streamer can do it, and JRiver - where all HiFi and Hi-End audio manufactures use it - can't

The topic does a good job of explaining why.

[michael123]

The topic does a good job of explaining why.

But the market also has a point.
Roon has seamless Tidal integration and so every other hardware streamer.

Why is it an issue to implement Roon protocol?


Regarding Logitech - AFAIK they abandoned the product many years ago, moreover, these features mentioned above, are provided by plug-ins.

For some reason, Squeezebox had historically strong developer community

I believe it is possible to develop an independent, not associated with JRiver, plug-in.

[theriverlethe]

I struggle to understand why anonymous streamer can do it, and JRiver - where all HiFi and Hi-End audio manufactures use it - can't

Ecosystem means something of closed origin, like Apple devices. I don't like personally these ecosystems, you invest your time in money in it, and then it is all burnt.

Like I had previously SlimDevices Squeezebox then Transporter, then it just became more or less a brick without proper support

JRiver is supported, but for how long you can add features to such a mature product?

The advantage IMHO is in versatility.

Logitech Media Server was made open source, is still actively developed and has support for DLNA, Chromecast and AirPlay in addition to Squeezebox devices. There are plugins for Deezer, Qobuz, Tidal and Spotify. Sadly, the popular Windows client, Squeezelite-X, doesn’t like JRiver’s WDM driver, but I just made a big report in their forum.

[JimH]

Why is it an issue to implement Roon protocol?

Roon isn't a standard protocol.  We're not going there.  For whatever reason, they don't support the DLNA/UPnP standards.

Please don't continue to push your point of view on Tidal.   We're not doing Tidal.  You apparently have many other choices for Tidal.

[JimH]

Or Qobuz.

[jachin99]

Its not exactly on demand but at the very least, there is a round about way to get Netflix content into MC.  Netflix still has a plan where they mail DVDs & Blurays to subscribers.  Depending on the plan you can have one or two either Movies or TV Show Seasons out at a time including their original shows and movies, which can then be copied and imported into MC.  Integrations like this are a close as your going to get with MC for quite a while, and it probably serves JRiver better to make the content in your library easily accessible.  If you want tidal or on demand music or shows you should probably go with plex.

[theriverlethe]

Or Qobuz.

I'm surprised someone hasn't implemented streaming services as third-party plugins. There are any number of clients for Kodi, Logitech Media Server, BubbleUPNP, etc.

[drmimosa]

JRiver Cloudplay is a great service already.

Currently it is playlist oriented. Why not add support for user-uploaded albums as well? Then add album search, playback, etc? Then booyeah, you have a lossless, in-house Tidal/Qubuz/etc...

Could that open up a possible scenario in MC where users could add whole albums from Cloudplay to their music library, and then tag and organize them as they see fit in their own collection?

[JimH]

Currently it is playlist oriented. Why not add support for user-uploaded albums as well? Then add album search, playback, etc? Then booyeah, you have a lossless, in-house Tidal/Qubuz/etc...

Could that open up a possible scenario in MC where users could add whole albums from Cloudplay to their music library, and then tag and organize them as they see fit in their own collection?

Whole albums aren't permitted under the license we use, unless we limit access to the user who uploaded it.  We'll probably add that ability.

[drmimosa]

Whole albums aren't permitted under the license we use, unless we limit access to the user who uploaded it.  We'll probably add that ability.

How much more expensive is the "unlimited whole album license", with albums provided by other users? 10x? 100x? Could it be a viable subscription service provided by JRiver?

Just curious...

[CadErik]

As Awesome Donkey said, we did it years ago.  They were unpleasant to work with and demanded control of the interface.  I also view them as a future bug on a windshield. 

We've done integrations with such services about twenty times.  None of them lasted. They're messy to do and to support.  They don't last.  We don't have any financial incentive to do them.  And so on.

If Amazon wanted to do an integration and paid us to do it, we'd probably do it.

I would have thought your role is to manage everything behind the scenes and now because of "messy" and other UI details, the major audiophile music service cannot connect to the best audiophile player. So it would cause more bugs & effort, fine and I'll be happy enough even if that was the single new feature in MC 27 + MC 28. And yes I would also understand increased license fees for this one. And something like this would enable a whole world of new features + a proper audio path instead of the poor tidal player.

And this is honestly, one of the few features I would really care about. Maybe even a lot of your users or potential new users? I would pay a master license.

[vulture_g7]

May I ask a feature for panel? I haven't found a way to remove a track from the playlist. So, unless there's a way and haven't found it, it'd be nice to have an X (for example) nexto each title to be able to remove it easily.

[JimH]

May I ask a feature for panel? I haven't found a way to remove a track from the playlist. So, unless there's a way and haven't found it, it'd be nice to have an X (for example) nexto each title to be able to remove it easily.

Good idea.  Press and hold might be a good place to put it.

[Castius]

What is it like to try to make a plug-in for streaming services?
I also wonder if an scripting API with something like like python. Would be something that would open more users to be able to contribute to more services.
Thanks

[pjdevries]

Please don't continue to push your point of view on Tidal.  We're not doing Tidal. 

Apparently there are quite a few people who appreciate the advantages of streaming services and consider it an important and unavoidable means of listening to music. The fact that they 'push', probably comes from their appreciation for MC and their reluctance to use something else. Times change. Nothing is certain in life, except for the fact that we die eventually. Especially in IT, things change fast. Yes there have been struggles in the past. But it seems those times have gone. Music streaming is main stream now (no pun intended).

We're not doing Tidal.  You apparently have many other choices for Tidal.

I'm quite sure you understand very well it's all about the integration. When I'm working, I have music on all day. It used to be my own collection, using MC as the player. Since I have a Tidal subscription, I have been trying to find a way to run a single desktop application to play both my personal collection and stream Tidal. The only alternative seems to be Roon, which I don't want to turn to for a number of reasons.

If I must believe real audiophiles (which I'm not), MC is considered one of the best audio players out there in terms of audio quality. So why not limit streaming support at least to high quality services like those of qobuz and Tidal? Like many others, I would definitely pay extra for that.

I have been using MC (and Media Jukebox before that) for almost 20 years now. Just for listening to music, not much benefiting from many of the 'improvements' over the past few years. But just like many others, I'm looking for an acceptable alternative now.

[JimH]

pjdevries,
I understand all you're saying, but I don't agree.

When we spend money on development, we try to build on a solid foundation.  Tidal isn't one.  We've been burned many times when "partners" were unreliable or failed.  In fact, Tidal was one of those.  We did an early integration, but they became demanding about how it should be presented in the player. That person is gone now, but I don't trust Jay-Z.

For different reasons, I don't want to do a Qobuz integration.  I visited their office in Paris while they were in the French equivalent of bankruptcy.

For more background, you could read this:

Why Streaming Struggles

[kolia]

For different reasons, I don't want to do a Qobuz integration.  I visited their office in Paris while they were in the French equivalent of bankruptcy.

Since that time, a new investor took over the company and Qobuz is developing its market in US and other countries. There are financially successfull

[MikeO]

@pjdevries

Have a look at MConnect as a remote app. It can see JRiver media server as DLNA and connects to Tidal and Qobuz.

It’s not true integration but it means one App and you get to divert to your HiFi system

BUT it’s not as slick as JRemote

[JimH]

They are financially successful.

Any reliable sources for that information?

[CadErik]

Any reliable sources for that information?

Why is this relevant? Spotify is not going to disappear tomorrow even if they are not financially successful (and for the story Amazon was not profitable for many years). And even if they were successful, that doesn't guarantee anything in terms of your integration. Problem is that for us, end users, the "foundation" doesn't mean much (I guess for audiophiles it means a good audio path but believe that has been now for 5+ years in MC). Also, to note, the desktop player for every one of these companies is real crap - they have very limited interested in proper playback abilities.

Anyway, I understand that you don't want to spend much effort in Tidal/<...> integration. Tidal wanted some UI changes, I'm not surprised... definitely would expect some branding requirements... Either way, you have some actual metrics that support that most users are interested in other feature or enough dedicated followers.

[JimH]

Tidal wanted some UI changes, I'm not surprised... definitely would expect some branding requirements...

It was much more than branding.   They wanted design control.

In any case, I don't trust Tidal and maybe that's the most important factor.

Spotify is not going to disappear tomorrow even if they are not financially successful

Take a careful look at the list of services that are now gone:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=101545.0

Add Google Music to that.

We can't afford to build support for services that aren't solid and lasting.  Maybe you know which ones will endure.   I don't.

[kolia]

Any reliable sources for that information?

A very close friend of mine knows personally and very well the owner of the company (I don't know him personnaly). I was talking to this friend again last Sunday and he told me how successfull the company was (the owner having constant successfull records in the companies he runs). You may believe or not at the end what the difference. Many of us have already testified why we are waiting for such an integration.

We can't afford to build support for services that aren't solid and lasting.

As far as a business is lasting or not, who can be sure of that? Any business can be very successfull at some point in time and collapse a few years later. Lets take Radio Paradise. Who is able to certify it will last forever?
FWIW this reason why I did not upgrade since MC24. May be it is only me, but I don't like play list and I'm not interested by all these things like Cloudplay and so on.
I understand very well that a company cannot jump on all new things, and making a choice is always a bet. However, it seems to me that for the next coming years Qobuz is on a stable track. Beside the HQ streaming service, the magazine represents a high added value.

[JimH]

A very close friend of mine knows personally and very well the owner of the company (I don't know him personnaly). I was talking to this friend again last Sunday and he told me how successfull the company was (the owner having constant successfull records in the companies he runs).

That's what many people thought about Trump.

[Awesome Donkey]

A very close friend of mine knows personally and very well the owner of the company (I don't know him personnaly)...

Sorry, but I had to stop reading right here. You can't make major business decisions because somebody knows somebody who said a company was allegedly doing well. Of course they're going to say things like that regardless, the company could be going belly up and they'll keep trying to save face until the ship goes down.

[BigSpider]

Now, now JimH you can blame Trump for almost anyrthing that is crapped up at the moment but I know a man whai thinks that the Xbuzz is the next big thing and it's going to be beautiful  and it wont go away like Covid 19 will 'It's like a miracle' but that streaming service is going to light up the skies and if there are any Americans left to use it we will won, now how's that then!

[kolia]

Sorry I've been out for a few days.

That's what many people thought about Trump.

While I understand the hint, I don't think it won't make the subject going forward.

Sorry, but I had to stop reading right here. You can't make major business decisions because somebody knows somebody who said a company was allegedly doing well. Of course they're going to say things like that regardless, the company could be going belly up and they'll keep trying to save face until the ship goes down.

There is no reason whatsoever you would trust an anonymous user that you don't know even he has been using MC for several years. On the opposite I know I can trust this very close friend. At the end, there is a caveat in the chain of trust and I have no problem you don't trust me. However I do have a problem when you say that what I trust is no good.
It has been asked so many time why MC is still not considering this option when so many vendors have integrated Qobuz or Tidal directly in their products. Are they losing money as well?
To make a business decision, indeed you need data. If you had some interest in this matter it would be easy to send a survey to your customer base to see how people are interested by that kind of option.