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[TheShoe]

Have a strange issue:

Built a new HTPC, fresh install of Windows 10 Pro 2004, nVidia 1650S GPU (latest drivers), 8GB system memory, stock version of madVR (installed by Media Center).

My media is fed over hard-wire Gb ethernet and I've measured consistent > 100MB/s transfer speed; local content produces same issue.  I've tried hardware decoding in the settings too - makes no difference.  CPU is 4Ghz, and GPU mem consumption is ~2GB during decoding/playback.

configured to use RO HQ:

If I run at 60Hz always, all video plays back perfectly - no issues with stuttering, no visible issues that I can see

If I configure Media Center to do refresh rate switching, to 23, 24, 30, etc... depending on source, I get video stutter during playback.

madVR shows 0 dropped frames and acceptable rendering times, queues are full, and no matter the processing/scaling settings it happens.

If I go RO STD, I don't see stutter, but of course I lose out on things like HDR.

Not sure why locking to 60Hz would prevent this and I'm inclined to leave it that way since it produces no visible artifacts that we can detect while watching various mixed content; however it is counter to how my other HTPC is configured (which uses an nVidia 1080Ti)

I've canvassed as many posts I can find on this topic for Media Center (and there are many through the years) - nothing suggested has an impact.

Since RO HQ @ 60Hz seems fine, I'm inclined to leave it that way.  But curious if there are other things to try/look at.

Note that I have no anti-virus other than what Windows provides OOTB

[tij]

Can you post MadVR OSD on one of the mode that cause stuttering?

PS ... stupid question, but to get it out of the way - does your TV support those frame rate

PSS ... which Windows 10 version you running?

[TheShoe]

Will grab a snapshot of madVR and post later.

Re: TV - it's an LG OLED 2016 4K set (same as yours I believe).

Windows version is Win10 Pro, 2004 (latest updates applied)

[tij]

I havent jump to 2004 yet

but i read it include setting for monitor refresh rate (supposed to fix flickering on system running multiple monitors with different refresh rate)

have a look what settings is set there (maybe it is set on 60Hz ... if i remember correctly LG OLED are 120Hz)

Edit: mayby play around with that setting ... see if it fixes stutering

Edit2: might be the reason 3D has problem too ... if refresh rate set to something incompatible, system might not be able to go to 23fps ... as a result GPU cannot switch to 3D (3D in MadVR only works up to 1080p24) ... just a wild guess as i am not on 2004, so cannot test

[TheShoe]

Attached an image of madVR OSD.

IGNORE the Dropped Frame count as I neglected to reset it.  All video has a few dropped frames when it begins playback.  Trust me that it does not drop once playback has been going a few seconds.

So in any case, on this card, locking to 60Mhz prevents any sort of stutter; anything else there is stutter.  I actually dropped down to a lower driver version to fix the HDR issue in latest nVidia drivers (HDR is stuck "on" after watching an HDR encoded video).

-

Some other differences between my two HTPCs:

1: The older HTPC with no issues with the 1080Ti is running a driver 445.75 which can no longer be downloaded.

2: The LG OLED set for the second/new HTPC with the 1080Ti is on a lower firmware.  The LG OLED for the new HTPC with the 1650S is on a newer firmware.  No idea if that has an impact, and I must have had auto-update on as I typically don't update firmware without some very compelling reason to do so.

So there are other differences in the stack.

[wer]

1: The older HTPC with no issues with the 1080Ti is running a driver 445.75 which can no longer be downloaded.

Sure they can. There are sites that maintain archives.  You can get the ones you want here:
https://www.guru3d.com/files-categories/videocards-nvidia-geforce-vista-%7C-7.html

Guru3D is reliable.

As to your problem, I don't see anything wrong in the MadVR data.  I don't suppose you have the ability to hook up the other TV, just to eliminate the TV as the problem?  Maybe take the computer to the TV?  I doubt very much that that's the issue, but just to be safe...

Personally, I would backup the PC with Macrium (as I think I mentioned to you before Shoe), wipe the drivers and install the 445.75 that you like, and see what happens.  If no joy, you can always revert to the snapshot and nothing ever happened.

[tij]

Check monitor refresh rate set in your Windows settings as I mention earlier (its a new option in 2004)  .. its possible it is set at 60Hz, which makes switching to 23fps not possible

EDIT: well ... as i understand it, GPU will switch to 23fps, but Windows will maintain 60Hz on display which will result in stuttering as 60 is not nice multiple of 23.976

[wer]

If your TV won't show you the refresh rate (I don't think mine does) then if you pass the signal through a receiver, the info screen on the receiver should show you the refresh rate and resolution of the video input signal.

[tij]

This control of refresh rate in Windows (not in GPU settings) is new. Suppose to fix flickering/stuttering on multi monitor setup

aka if monitor is 144Hz and TV is 120Hz - in the past this will result in stuttering/flickering ... the idea now is you can control/force display refresh rates ... to eliminate flickering you set rates as multiples (in 144 vs 120 ... you set one as 144 the other as 72 ... or one as 60 the other as 120) ... this eliminates flickering across multiple displays ... but can introduce other problems (typical of Microsoft)

In The Shoe example ... Windows might have been conservative and set refresh rate on his OLED to 60Hz (which will play 60fps movies nice, but will have problems with 23fps content) ... setting refresh to 120Hz should eliminate that problem

This is pure guessing ... as I am not on 2004 (I am not early adopter as new Windows updates tend to break stuff) ... but The Shoe problem really sounds like problem with refresh rate that Window pick for him as default.

[TheShoe]

today i am going to connect the new htpc to the other tv to eliminate that.  directly, so i remove the processor (marantz) out of the chain.

will also look at the windows refresh rate serting, though both are on windows 2004 and one works fine while the other does not, so not sure about that.

re: the backup - just downloaded the free version yesterday.  planning to use that goong forward if it works well.  thanks for that recommendation!  will also check guru3D - forgot about them.  nVidia for some reason omits that driver version from their list of older versions one can download.

more later...

[TheShoe]

@tij - that "refresh Rate option" is not present in my version of windows.

under Display Settings -> Advanced Display Settings, it shows the top half of your image, e.g. resolution, etc. but there is only a link to "DIsplay Adapter properties for Display 1".  Clicking on that takes me to the "Generic PnP Monitor and NVIDIA Geforce 1650" adapter properties dialog, same as you would see if accessing via Hardware Manager.

the only place I can change refresh rate in Windows is the nVidia control panel *or* the adapter properties dialog.

[tij]

Darn ... i might need to take a plunge and upgrade to 2004 ... to figure it out lol

[tij]

Installed 2004 build 19041.572 ... you are right @TheShoes - there are no refresh rate change in display settings (must have been removed from test build due to instability)

atm on MC 27.0.20

3D framepack still works with NVidia 425.31

I have not noticed any stuttering on 23 or 60 stuff

very strange problem you got there

EDIT: spoken too soon ... 60fps progressive 4K is stuttering for me (60fps interlaced HD has no problem) ... rendering time are good, but "present queue" is not filling in ... sounds stuttering too

... this is interesting as I start my desktop in 23.976 ... and have problems with 60fps stuff

... i guess you starting desktop in 60fps and have problem with 23.976 stuff

EDIT2: my 60fps progressive 4K is not triggering HDR on TV if use passthrough (23.976 stuff triggers HDR passthrough) ... this makes me believe it all depends on which refresh rate you start your comp in ...

in my case I start at 23fps ... so that stuff works including HDR passthrough and 3D ... while my 60fps progressive stuff stutters and fails to trigger HDR passthrough (MadVR tone mapping still works)

in your case you start at 60fps ... so 23fps stuff fails for you - stuttering, 3D does not trigger (I bet HDR passthrough for 23fps stuff fails to trigger you TV into HDR mode too) ... probably reason 3D does not work for guys in another forum

... I am a bit lazy to restart my computer at 60fps at the moment to test this theory ... maybe tomorrow

[TheShoe]

well, as I mentioned:

My 1080ti, latest nVidia drivers, latest Media Center, latest Windows == 100% working fine.  I boot into 60Hz, 8bit RGB Full.  When playback starts and refresh rates changes to 23Hz, no stuttering.  HDR works fine, and drivers even switch to RGB 12Bit/Full . So I can now just run everything in RGB.

The stuttering issue is only on that 1650S.  Doesn't matter refresh rate what I boot that PC into

Will try some additional experiments as a few of you suggested and report back

For the 1650S HTPC however, leaving it at 60Hz, playback of any video looks fine to me.  No artifacts that I can see, so in the end likely just to call it a day and leave it that way.  It just doesn't make sense to me

[tij]

do you have those weird 4k 60fps stuff (Billy Lynn or Gemini Man) ... does those stuff run OK on you 1080ti system?

[tij]

Well restarting to 60fps desktop broke frame pack 3D ... other stuff still works

except 60fps 4K stuff (Billy Lynn and Gemini Man) still does not work ... queues are not filling (all of them) ... stuttering like hell (both picture and sound) ... sound gets out of sync ... BUT can passthrough HDR to TV (which I could not do if start in 23fps desktop)

EDIT - SUMMARY of my testing of 2004 with NVidia:

1. 4k 60fps does not work (Billy Lynn and Gemini Man)

2. Booting to 60fps breaks 3D framepack playback

3. Best to boot to 23.976fps (to make 3D works) ... then change desktop to 60fps

VERDICT - if video is important to you, don't upgrade to 2004 yet (God knows what else might be broken lol)

[TheShoe]

do you have those weird 4k 60fps stuff (Billy Lynn or Gemini Man) ... does those stuff run OK on you 1080ti system?

i can play 4K60 but i have to drop down the scaling setting in madvr to do so.  usually pulling way back on NGU settings to prevent dropped frames.

the difference there is that frames are actually droped whereas my little problem on the stuttering does not drop frames.   so it makes me think this is all post media center/madvr processing and is more likely one of: Windows, the GPU itself, The TV firmware.

didn’t get time to test yesterday.   will get to it this evening and see if i can narrow it down.

[wer]

Ok.  The tests I would try would be:

1. Connect to the other TV
2. Wipe the drivers and try the 445.75
3. If 445.75 doesn't work with the new tv, Try 445.75 with old tv, on the off chance it's a combination of factors
4. Put the 1080ti in the new PC, just to be sure.

I would think #2 is the most likely winner.  But that combination of tests will tell you exactly where the problem is.

[tij]

Still on v2004 build 19041.572 ... but up NVidia to 456.71

Restarted PC on 59fps ... hoping it will clear 4K 60fps stuff (those things are actually 59.94) ... no luck ... HDR passes through ... but whole thing flickers in and out of HDR ... queues still cannot fill

and it screw 23fps stuff ... flickers like hell (looks like TV jumping in and out of HDR mode)

EDIT: restarting PC on 60fps fix 23fps ... 4K 60fps same - cannot fill any queue (dejavu with MadVR 92.16)

EDIT2: enabling hardware decoding fixes 4K 60fps ... wonder if AntiVirus is slowing down software decoding

EDIT3: initially hardware decoding had some "presentation glitches" piling up (on both 4K, HD, 59, and 23 content) ... updated motherboard drivers and BIOS and "presentation glitches" problem went away ... but still cannot use software decoding on 2160p59 content - queues do not fill up

[TheShoe]

Very busy but managed to get back to this.

1. Connect to the other TV

- done; no effect, either direct or through the Marantz processor which the working HTPC goes through.  So that removes the TV firmware (same sets otherwise) and the Sony Soundbar/processor as potential culprits.

2. Wipe the drivers and try the 445.75

- unfortunately Guru3D links to an nVidia site in the UK and it returns 404 for any version of that driver.  So out of luck.  I did try the version released two weeks later but same issue.

3. If 445.75 doesn't work with the new tv, Try 445.75 with old tv, on the off chance it's a combination of factors

- see (2)

4. Put the 1080ti in the new PC, just to be sure.

- this one I still have to try.  My guess is that this will resolve it.  I think it's the 1650S card that is the issue, given what has been eliminated.  will have to wait till the weekend

5. I want to try Windows 1909

- both HTPCs are on latest Windows 10 2004 (same patch level) so I think (5) is unlikely as an issue.  Aware of the weirdness with 3D that tij reported; I'd do same if I were still using auto-detection but just using top/bottom now.

----

For now I'll just turn off auto-refresh switching and leave it at 60Hz which produces an artifact free image (to these eyes anyway).

Appreciate all the tips!

[wer]

Tip: google is very helpful "nvidia 445.75 download"

The 445.75 driver is also available from Softpedia:
https://drivers.softpedia.com/get/GRAPHICS-BOARD/NVIDIA/NVIDIA-GeForce-Notebook-Graphics-Driver-445-75-for-Windows-10-64-bit.shtml

[TheShoe]

yup I know. 

I'm hesitant to download from Softpedia.  - Guru3D I know and they were just linking through to another nVidia site; don't know Softpedia - trustworthy?  I'm paranoid these days about what I download and from where

[TheShoe]

SOLVED!

In MadVR under Rendering->Window Mode, I changed the value of “How Many Frames to be Presented in Advance” from the default of “8” to “1” and the stuttering is gone.

This was based on a suggestion in another thread with stuttering issues on the nVidia 20X series.

Thread: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,127576.0.html

[arcspin]

Yes, the madvr setting to present 1 frame in advance should be the first suggestion to help people that are using madvr to solve the problem with stutter.
The other two suggestions in NVIDIA settings are also key to tame the graphics card.

[wer]

Shoe, is that setting necessary on the PC with the 445.75 drivers? 

[TheShoe]

Shoe, is that setting necessary on the PC with the 445.75 drivers?

it’s not.  however i haven‘t touched madvr settings on that pc in a long time.  i’ll check the value of that property to confirm i had not changed it in the past

Update: the property is set to the default of 8 on the HTPC running the 445.75 driver on a 1080TI.