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Author Topic: Converting to DSD  (Read 1885 times)

BuDz

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Converting to DSD
« on: January 17, 2021, 05:11:42 am »

First off hello everyone, i have not posted b4 so be gentle with me plz. My question is about converting to DSD128 i have a Naim Dac V1 which plays native DSD, is the source file to convert better off being 24bit FLAC or does it not matter and is really as easy as choosing DSD 128 in the converter or will i not get native DSD from a conversion are there any setting to prevent any clicks or noise as i am listening to tunes that have some silence in, Thanks for your time. BuDz. Sorry if i put this in wrong place also.
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Soundwave

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Re: Converting to DSD
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2021, 11:29:34 am »

In almost every conceivable instance, playing back files in the native format you've purchased them from, is the best policy. DSD conversion isn't recommended as there is definitional contention concerning the state of "bit-perfect"-ness/lessless conversion to such a vastly different format. This isn't like a simple sample rate conversion that is very well handled these days by many converters. Though JRiver does fine with the DSD conversion, the question you should actually be asking yourself is, why you would want to even do such a thing in the first place. There is zero auditory benefit from things like upsampling or converting to DSD, you can't get anything out of it, but you can have a botched result with lots of out-of-band noise/distortion at worst.

If you have something like 24-bit FLAC files. You're basically using the best sourced file anyway. There's no reason you should be converting to DSD unless you just want to test out the claims of your DAC's capability.

If you're hellbent on getting native DSD playback (native as-in, not transfered over PCM, aka DoP), then what you want is DFF file format (though I would stay away from this conversion, as very few players can maintain the barebones metadata support it offers). DSF on the other hand is the true DSD format you want (metadata framework is far better and more interoperable to the few players that support it). There's another format called DXD (not really DSD, just simply a high sample rate PCM), but this is rarely seen and can be effectively ignored as it's somewhat used in the production side of things (if ever anymore honestly).

Also I'm not clear if you're talking about conversion and then playback (as I have been discussing up until now) or whether you're talking about the Ouput Format settings within JRiver's DSP Options menu to where you can choose DSD Native, or DoP (for temporary playback conversion). If you're talking about that, well then I'm not sure what JRiver is actually doing in terms of the encoders used for the Native DSD vs DoP option. The one thing about DoP is, you retain signal processing ability (meaning you can apply DSP and change volume levels, where for "true native DSD" output, you don't get to mess with anything from the signal, and will require hardware to even control volume output. So I guess "native DSD" is the thing you're looking for if you want "as true to format" as possible (whatever that means to you). But as mentioned before, since you're starting with a PCM FLAC file, this conversion can only degrade the signal at worst, and literally not change anything at best. Sound improvements? That's not going to happen in any instance.

The last part of your question.. I have no idea what you're referring to. "Setting to prevent any clicks or noise as I am listening to tunes that have some silence"? Are you talking about your DAC is making these clicks when listening to the same music regardless of source? (Meaning, are you hearing this when listening to the same song on Youtube, and hearing the same clicks and noise you hear as if you were listening to it anywhere else?). Some music can have that as part of the recorded material, or if it's a vinyl rip/version you could be hearing artifacts from vinyl scratch/pop and whatnot. But if you're hearing this from EVERY single piece of music that has silence, that seems to be a hardware problem from your DAC most likely or some driver-level issue from your computer, or it can be simply an electrical issue (if it's like a buzzing noise, then you have ground loops that people can get with busy electrical outlets in use by multiple devices, and that would require getting a balanced-audio setup which I won't go into here).
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BuDz

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Re: Converting to DSD
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2021, 01:36:07 pm »

WOW thanks for your reply Soundwave. you know your stuff matey. Yeah i guess having just got a dac that plays these dsf files i wanted to listen to some and see what the difference is and then i noticed the converter on JR has a dsd in the dropdown selection of the converter so i thought i'd ask if it could be done but check before hand. Could i change 16 bit FLAC to 24 bit? Thanks again for your reply,
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dtc

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Re: Converting to DSD
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2021, 02:06:02 pm »

There is zero auditory benefit from things like upsampling or converting to DSD, you can't get anything out of it, but you can have a botched result with lots of out-of-band noise/distortion at worst.

You are trying to address a theoretical difference between PCM and DSD formats. Yes, converting PCM to DSD is a lossy process.  But that does not mean, in the real world, it is inferior. DACs sound different and a DSD DAC can sound better or worse than a PCM DAC. The only way to know if DSD sounds better is to try it and listen with your equipment.

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If you're hellbent on getting native DSD playback (native as-in, not transfered over PCM, aka DoP), then what you want is DFF file format (though I would stay away from this conversion, as very few players can maintain the barebones metadata support it offers). DSF on the other hand is the true DSD format you want (metadata framework is far better and more interoperable to the few players that support it).

DFF and DSF are two file formats for DSD. DSF allows for metadata and DFF does not.  DFF allows for compression, but DSF does not.  DSF and DFF files can be converted back and forth losslessly, but many software packages, including JRiver, use PCM as an intermediate format, which makes the conversion lossy. Most people use DSF for 2 channel.

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There's another format called DXD (not really DSD, just simply a high sample rate PCM), but this is rarely seen and can be effectively ignored as it's somewhat used in the production side of things (if ever anymore honestly).
Current software does not allow for editing DSD files directly. So, they are often converted to 24 bit 352 Khz PCM, which some vendors called DXD. That term is not used much in the consumer market these days.

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The one thing about DoP is, you retain signal processing ability (meaning you can apply DSP and change volume levels, where for "true native DSD" output, you don't get to mess with anything from the signal, and will require hardware to even control volume output.
You cannot apply DSPs or volume changes to DoP. DoP (DSD over PCM) is simply a bit perfect way to send DSD bits in a PCM wrapper, using a 24 bit PCM format. The 8 most significant bits contain a value that DoP capable DACs us to recognize the stream as DoP. The other 16 bits are just 16 of the DSD 0s or 1s. The DAC reassembles the DSD stream. The process is bit perfect and any attempt to change the volume or apply a DSP to the DoP stream destroys the DSD data stream.
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The last part of your question.. I have no idea what you're referring to. "Setting to prevent any clicks or noise as I am listening to tunes that have some silence"?
Conversion of data to DSD format has been plagued with a problem in the data storage format that can cause the DAC to produce a click on playback. Early conversion programs commonly had such a problem although newer conversion routines have pretty much eliminated the problem, but it does still happen. The problem depends on both the software uses and the DAC used. Conversion of PCM to DSD with MC typically does not have the click problem.
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wer

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Re: Converting to DSD
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2021, 02:16:11 pm »

DTC knows his stuff.
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Soundwave

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Re: Converting to DSD
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2021, 05:54:24 pm »

WOW thanks for your reply Soundwave. you know your stuff matey. Yeah i guess having just got a dac that plays these dsf files i wanted to listen to some and see what the difference is and then i noticed the converter on JR has a dsd in the dropdown selection of the converter so i thought i'd ask if it could be done but check before hand. Could i change 16 bit FLAC to 24 bit? Thanks again for your reply,

Yeah no problem. dtc goes a bit more into detail than I think was relevant for you questioning so if you're interested in a few more specifics you can also read up what he says as that's largely true for the technical aspects. I tried to make it quick and simple.

But yeah, you can use the drop down menu and have your content played with on the fly conversion while listening to the music, or you can use the converter and convert your actual music into DSD. Of which I think both are pretty much pointless if you have a PCM capable DAC (which is virtually 99% all of them).

As for the question about converting the bit depth to 24, from 16. That would also be possible though I am not sure why you would want to do that manually. There's nothing really to be gained as nothing should be added to your music files by way of conversion, it can only get worse. That's not to say 24 bit depth is worthless (kind of like DXD, its helpful in production, but with bit depth 24 is great as you don't really have to worry about clipping your audio after adjusting levels and such), but consumers converting from already finalized 16 bit audio to 24 bit audio? Yeah, not much reason to do that if you're simply listening to music. JRiver's audio process engine operates under higher bit depths when using dedicated drivers provided by the company (usually in the form of ASIO drivers that allow for bit perfect operations), for volume-only control, JRiver digitally processes the audio stream in 32 bits, while if you engage DSP for things like EQ or Crossfeed and such others, it will go to a crazy to a staggering 64 bits worth of digital processing which is awesome technically speaking from an operations standpoint.

So with JRiver especially, you have even less of a reason to engage in this sort of manual conversion to DSD or 24 bit-depth. For DSD, it's not an issue, and you can just try it out yourself using the output format setting of your choice. But for 24 bit depth conversion, you're going to need to do that manually, and can't be done on the fly (I mean, it gets done on the fly sort of, as I described prior by JRiver when needed). But that conversion grants you personally nothing for the reasons stated prior.
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dtc

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Re: Converting to DSD
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2021, 06:43:51 pm »

I am not sure if you are already using DSD or not.  So, here are some comments in case you are just starting to use DSD.

I did not fine if your DAC uses DoP or native DSD sample rates. My guess is that it uses  DoP. If it uses DoP it sends 1x DSD as 176 Khz PCM and 2x DSD as 352 KHz PCM.  DoP is bit perfect DSD, just is a form that DACs can use without having to support a usb interface at the high DSD sample rates.

Your DAC is somewhat old and, at the time, required a separate driver to go about 96 KHz sample rates. With Windows 10 today, standard WASAPI will go to that sample rate. So, if the DAC uses DoP, you can use the Naim 384 Khz driver or not.  If the DAC uses native sample rates for transmission (2.8 and 5.6 Mhz) then you will need an ASIO driver from Naim.  If it uses DoP, the WASAPI will automatically use DoP.

To play DSD with MC you need to set the Bitstream option in Audio Setup to Bitstream DSD. You may also have to set volume to 100% when playing DSD. That depends on the particular DAC.

If you use the Output Format option in DSP Studio, all files will be converted to DSD during playback. If you want just some files converted, you can use the Convert Format option to convert the file and then play that file.  You need a good CPU to convert to DSD on the fly.

Whether you have 16 bit or 24 bit files will not matter in the conversion to DSD.

Good luck.

EDIT : The Naim instructions for JRiver indicate that the Naim driver is a for WASAPI, which indicates that the DAC uses DoP for DSD. So you should be able to use either the Naim driver or the native Windows 10 WASAIP driver.
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dtc

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Re: Converting to DSD
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2021, 07:06:50 pm »

But yeah, you can use the drop down menu and have your content played with on the fly conversion while listening to the music, or you can use the converter and convert your actual music into DSD. Of which I think both are pretty much pointless if you have a PCM capable DAC (which is virtually 99% all of them).

Different DACs sound different and a specific DAC  can sound different playing PCM and playing DSD.  And, what a listener hears depends not only on the DAC but also on the other equipment in the system and on the person listening to the music. So, I would encourage the OP to give it a try and see for himself.
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BuDz

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Re: Converting to DSD
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2021, 06:58:11 am »

Thank you both dtc & Soundwave for all your time on answering me you are both very knowlegable and generous people. I am blown away thanks again , BuDz.
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