Topic: Silicon Mini and HDMI sample rates (Read 6680 times)

bob · « **on:** January 18, 2021, 05:26:03 pm »

I'm sad to report that Apple still hasn't fixed this even in the 11.2 beta. Starting to wonder if it's a chipset limitation...

As you can see from the midi menu, the other sample rates to my Sony amp are greyed out.
They work on the 2012 mini.

bhampster · « **Reply #1 on:** January 20, 2021, 07:06:36 am »

Thank you for investigating this.

As many know I planned on trying to use an M1 Mac mini as a HTPC for my theater and this is the reason I gave that plan up.

I still have my 2010 Mac mini (thank goodness) and have set it up once again as a Audio Only JRiver music server. Last I checked the latest version does still work although at this point the operating system I use on the machine is unsupported.

=Brian

bob · « **Reply #2 on:** January 20, 2021, 09:13:55 am »

Quote from: bhampster on January 20, 2021, 07:06:36 am

Thank you for investigating this.

As many know I planned on trying to use an M1 Mac mini as a HTPC for my theater and this is the reason I gave that plan up.

I still have my 2010 Mac mini (thank goodness) and have set it up once again as a Audio Only JRiver music server. Last I checked the latest version does still work although at this point the operating system I use on the machine is unsupported.

=Brian

I find it astonishing and rather hard to believe that they haven't addressed this, unless it's really their chipset limitation for HDMI and so they really have nothing to say.

Even the current multiarch build will work down to 10.11 so you should be safe for some time.

bhampster · « **Reply #3 on:** February 02, 2021, 06:08:38 am »

tldr: Why I still use a JRiver Mac Mini (2010) Music server

I try and try and try to simplify my life and my computer systems. However, I still need a way to play my favorite media in full quality and while that sounds simple enough, in practice it's really not.

I subscribe to Apple One which includes Apple Music for my family and recently purchased a HomePod for the dining room which is great. It does me no good though when I want to enjoy high res or surround sound music.

I have a great respect for vinyl but it's not for me. I admire and enjoy other people's record collections.

That said, I suppose I could subscribe to a streaming service that supports High Res but paying by the minute for music that I already own isn't something I've done yet.

My 2010 Mac Mini is a bit battered ... has a missing fan connection on the logic board and now is missing the Wifi board which I threw away (it is hardwired to the network). It still works perfectly. I like to think of it as customized. Maybe some day I will try a Pi or other small computer that is more current.

There is no better medicine for my soul then Pink Floyd in 5.1, 24/96 in the dedicated room I build myself for music and movies and no better way to achieve it than JRiver.

-Brian

LilyAarseth · « **Reply #4 on:** February 02, 2021, 01:48:59 pm »

It's really frustrating because I was thinking of getting a HDMI module for my preamp/dac. I used to come from a surround setup with a reciever but when upgrading to stereo I lost a major convenience of being able to switch A+V sources with a single remote and button press. I can audibly hear the triangle-metallic "artifacting" when upsampling 44.1 to 48 so I really hope this gets resolved in the future. I don't know how the macos environment works but if we're at stuck at apple's "we know what's best for our customers" attitude and this doesn't get resolved/sticking to 48 was intentional likethe apple tv, would anyone be able to write custom drivers?

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #5 on:** February 02, 2021, 02:26:13 pm »

Quote from: LilyAarseth on February 02, 2021, 01:48:59 pm

would anyone be able to write custom drivers?

Nope, it's possible that it's a limitation of the hardware (chipset) itself. If so, you have to hope the M2 or whatever future chips Apple makes supports it.

bob · « **Reply #6 on:** February 02, 2021, 03:07:24 pm »

Quote from: LilyAarseth on February 02, 2021, 01:48:59 pm

It's really frustrating because I was thinking of getting a HDMI module for my preamp/dac. I used to come from a surround setup with a reciever but when upgrading to stereo I lost a major convenience of being able to switch A+V sources with a single remote and button press. I can audibly hear the triangle-metallic "artifacting" when upsampling 44.1 to 48 so I really hope this gets resolved in the future. I don't know how the macos environment works but if we're at stuck at apple's "we know what's best for our customers" attitude and this doesn't get resolved/sticking to 48 was intentional likethe apple tv, would anyone be able to write custom drivers?

As for the upsampling, try the use SoX option in MC to see if that sounds any better.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #7 on:** February 02, 2021, 03:13:56 pm »

I'm guessing it's not fixed in Big Sur 11.2 final?

bob · « **Reply #8 on:** February 02, 2021, 04:24:39 pm »

Quote from: Awesome Donkey on February 02, 2021, 03:13:56 pm

I'm guessing it's not fixed in Big Sur 11.2 final?

I haven't taken it downstairs to test with my amp again but it's still only showing 48k connected to my monitor.

bhampster · « **Reply #9 on:** February 03, 2021, 05:21:33 am »

Quote from: Awesome Donkey on February 02, 2021, 03:13:56 pm

I'm guessing it's not fixed in Big Sur 11.2 final?

I don't think they want to fix it but then again I can't believe they decided to do this so I guess anything is possible.

When I first got my ATV4K I assumed it would be capable of anything my old Mac mini could do output wise but that is locked completely to 48KHz.

I did read one paper online suggesting everything use 48KHz to enhance compatability with new hardware and maybe they read the same thing. Edit - This is the thing I found online and honestly I didn't read all the way through it...

https://www.provideocoalition.com/all-audio-production-distribution-should-go-48-khz-learn-why/

I try to tell myself ... hey maybe that's at the limit of perceptibility but if I have something that can play my files unaltered then that just seems like a better over all plan.

-Brian

dejanm · « **Reply #10 on:** February 03, 2021, 09:11:34 am »

Brian,

It cannot be that HDMI protocol should support only 48KHz. That does not make much sense, especially because we have now a lot of different (and better) formats than this one. Nearly all of AVRs support nowadays 24-192 and many support also DSD, etc. So it is a huge limitation imposed now by Apple without clear reason, because the older Macs could do more.

bhampster · « **Reply #11 on:** February 03, 2021, 11:10:07 am »

Quote from: dejanm on February 03, 2021, 09:11:34 am

Brian,

It cannot be that HDMI protocol should support only 48KHz. That does not make much sense, especially because we have now a lot of different (and better) formats than this one. Nearly all of AVRs support nowadays 24-192 and many support also DSD, etc. So it is a huge limitation imposed now by Apple without clear reason, because the older Macs could do more.

The world is full of stuff that doesn't make sense but is still true.

This is one of those. By the Way I did feedback to Apple today through the community forum and the feature request forms.

dejanm · « **Reply #12 on:** February 04, 2021, 01:45:22 am »

Brian,

Great that you posted this issue to Apple - that is probably the only way how we can make at least a little pressure on them to change something ....

bob · « **Reply #13 on:** February 04, 2021, 04:25:04 pm »

Just tried the 11.3 beta.
No go, all of the sample rates other than 48k have no PCM output formats.
I even separated the amp (alone on HDMI) from the monitor (usb-c out) and it didn't help (and the Mac didn't like that very much at all, it still thought the AMP was a monitor_

LilyAarseth · « **Reply #14 on:** February 04, 2021, 06:27:15 pm »

Perhaps the only hope is when/if support for dGPUs will be added through TB3 and thus requiring non-apple drivers/chipsets. But that solution is quite expensive and not worth it even if it ends up being an option. Apple really screwed up here, still hoping it gets resolved sometime.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #15 on:** February 05, 2021, 04:27:12 am »

Quote from: LilyAarseth on February 04, 2021, 06:27:15 pm

Perhaps the only hope is when/if support for dGPUs will be added through TB3 and thus requiring non-apple drivers/chipsets. But that solution is quite expensive and not worth it even if it ends up being an option. Apple really screwed up here, still hoping it gets resolved sometime.

I doubt this is going to happen. Apple has already replaced the AMD GPUs used in their M1-based Macs with their own that's integrated into the SoC. All Macs in the future will use Apple GPUs and I highly doubt Apple will ever allow external GPUs to be supported over Thunderbolt.

And Nvidia certainly isn't going to release drivers for macOS anymore. Apple and Nvidia had a falling out years ago and High Sierra was the last version Nvidia released any "web drivers" for.

bhampster · « **Reply #16 on:** February 10, 2021, 11:05:35 am »

Well, I'm not sure where to put this but something good did happen.

After yesterdays' Big Sur update I can now stream 4K/HDR content with my Mac Mini.

So,... seems enhancements are still forthcoming. I'm really glad I decided to pair this Mac mini with a 4K monitor now.

LilyAarseth · « **Reply #17 on:** February 10, 2021, 12:11:15 pm »

I've been able to do 4K HDR before the update with the HDMI out. Out of curiosity, are you using an external TB/USB-C adapter (Which from what I understand hasn't supported HDR before) ?

bhampster · « **Reply #18 on:** February 21, 2021, 02:58:49 pm »

I tried from the HDMI and the USB C to HDMI adapter.

The problem isn't with the 4K HDR output ... it's with the audio output which is locked to 48Khz for everything.

Which is only a problem in some cases.... Like if you wanted to listen to a CD without changing the sample rate or a High Res Audio file.

-Brian

bob · « **Reply #19 on:** February 21, 2021, 09:47:12 pm »

Quote from: bhampster on February 21, 2021, 02:58:49 pm

I tried from the HDMI and the USB C to HDMI adapter.

The problem isn't with the 4K HDR output ... it's with the audio output which is locked to 48Khz for everything.

Which is only a problem in some cases.... Like if you wanted to listen to a CD without changing the sample rate or a High Res Audio file.

-Brian

No go with the next beta either. It looks like a hardware issue.

JHR · « **Reply #20 on:** March 18, 2021, 12:22:53 pm »

Just so I understand the thread, this is about HDMI audio rates and new M1-based Mac Minis, correct?

If I'm using a USB DAC, or an external USB DAC, then the M1 Minis would still work as an high-definition audio server with JRiver, correct? Thanks for the clarification!

bob · « **Reply #21 on:** March 18, 2021, 12:48:55 pm »

Quote from: JHR on March 18, 2021, 12:22:53 pm

Just so I understand the thread, this is about HDMI audio rates and new M1-based Mac Minis, correct?

If I'm using a USB DAC, or an external USB DAC, then the M1 Minis would still work as an high-definition audio server with JRiver, correct? Thanks for the clarification!

Correct. It's only the M1 Mini HDMI interface that's rate locked to 48k

phrehdd · « **Reply #22 on:** April 08, 2021, 05:30:47 pm »

I am new here so please forgive me if my question was either answered or the fact it is a bit off subject.

Was looking for an alternative to Mac's miserable music app and recalled JR from years long ago. After seeing how there are challenges with the M1 Mac (even after its latest updates), I need to ask -

Can JR be used with a usb external DAC? I have no desire to do surround just 2.0 or 2.1 (most likely 2.0) for speakers and headphones. If yes, will that bypass this problem of bitrate issues?

From what I see, I am glad I remembered to look up JRiver software. The only other software that was of like was much to my chagrin discontinued long ago (Clementine).

bob · « **Reply #23 on:** April 08, 2021, 06:17:04 pm »

Quote from: phrehdd on April 08, 2021, 05:30:47 pm

I am new here so please forgive me if my question was either answered or the fact it is a bit off subject.

Was looking for an alternative to Mac's miserable music app and recalled JR from years long ago. After seeing how there are challenges with the M1 Mac (even after its latest updates), I need to ask -

Can JR be used with a usb external DAC? I have no desire to do surround just 2.0 or 2.1 (most likely 2.0) for speakers and headphones. If yes, will that bypass this problem of bitrate issues?

From what I see, I am glad I remembered to look up JRiver software. The only other software that was of like was much to my chagrin discontinued long ago (Clementine).

Yes it will work fine. There are no issues with USB devices, just that HDMI is limited to 48k on the M1 Mini.

dejanm · « **Reply #24 on:** May 01, 2021, 01:54:07 am »

Just installed BigSur 11.3 No changes - still only 48 KHz through HDMI.

bhampster · « **Reply #25 on:** May 12, 2021, 06:47:47 am »

Many sources claim Apple plans to introduce hifi to Apple Music on May 18th.

I've read Apple has music content in 24/96Khz that will then be available.

Waiting anxiously for this as I want to know how it affects the current Apple stance that 48Khz is the only sampling rate that matters.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #26 on:** May 12, 2021, 07:14:27 am »

Well, as far as I know it's only the HDMI output on the M1-based Macs that's limited to 48 kHz. When using the 3.5mm headphone jack does it have sample rates higher than 48 kHz available via the Audio MIDI Setup app? I actually would be surprised if it didn't and was limited to 48 kHz as well.

It's nice to see Apple to go "Hi-Fi" but I'd rather have them offer all their past and present music downloads with a lossless (Apple Lossless) option so I can finally get some old, rare iTunes-only content off the iTunes Store that I bought 10+ years ago in lossless form.

bhampster · « **Reply #27 on:** May 14, 2021, 04:41:09 pm »

The Android app code also reveals that Apple Music will offer two choices for lossless playback:

Lossless
ALAC up to 24-bit/48 kHz

High-Res Lossless
ALAC up to 24-bit/192 kHz

This is very encouraging

EDIT = Yes, as mentioned above only the HDMI output is limited to 48KHz currently. However, the HDMI output gives you a multichannel output which is not very common in USB DACs and so on.

Apple says high res needs outboard DAC so I guess it's not an update to the HDMI output ability.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #28 on:** May 17, 2021, 10:28:10 am »

Apple has officially announced lossless for Apple Music, at no extra cost either.

What they didn't announce was any lossless downloads for music purchased in the iTunes Store. This is what I actually care about as there are a good number of iTunes exclusive releases that I bought over the years that I'd like to download in lossless.

But yeah, M1 users who use HDMI might be out of luck for content above 24/48. My guess is the system mixer will resample everything in the background without informing the user.

bob · « **Reply #29 on:** May 17, 2021, 10:34:54 am »

Quote from: Awesome Donkey on May 17, 2021, 10:28:10 am

Apple has officially announced lossless for Apple Music, at no extra cost either.

What they didn't announce was any lossless downloads for music purchased in the iTunes Store. This is what I actually care about as there are a good number of iTunes exclusive releases that I bought over the years that I'd like to download in lossless.

There was a similar program when they went from protected content to not protected IIRC. I tried getting my protected tracks downloaded not protected but by and large it didn't work.

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Author Topic: Silicon Mini and HDMI sample rates (Read 6680 times)