Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[henning65]

Update 7.4.2021

After personal contact with the main distributer "ATR" in Germany for "Pro-Ject":
The product Pre Box S2 Digital is free of components from mainland-China. (please have a look at this post https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,128850.msg896142.html#msg896142 for details.



----------------
Update
22.03.2021
As this might be interesting for others I like to sum up the findings related to production sites for some brands so far

• Cambridge Audio (UK): assembling and production in China (source: wikipedia.en)
• Topping (China): assembling and production in China
• iFi audio (UK): assembling and production in China (source: https://hifipig.com/ifi-zen-dac/)
• Schiit (US): assembling and production in US // doesn't play DSD
• Korg (Japan): assembling and production unknown
• Pro-Ject (Austria): assembling and production: Europe

This narrows it down to Korg and Pro-Ject. Three different machines:

• Korg DS-DAC-100 (€235)
• Pro-Ject DAC Box DS2 ultra (€630)
• Pre Box S2 Digital (€375)

Questions:
Can I listen to DSD256 (over DoP) in my hardware-setting with macOS and one of the candidates?


------------------

Hello
I would like to ask for some basic (hardware-) advice.
I'm a bit lost with deciding on hardware to use with JRiver Media Center:

For now I'm locking for a low budget solution (aka 500€ max) to deliver stereo to my pioneer VSX-D1011. The speakers are connected with cable.
It would be nice to be able to wireless connect a Monitor Audio S300 and /or to Bowers & Wilkens A5.

I do ask myself, if I should lookout for an LAN/ethernet DAC device or an USB-device to be directly connected to (an old Mac mini (end 2012, Intel core i5) with SSD). I do have .iso files (from SACD), but just a few - the others are FLAC.
In principle I would love multi-channel, but for now stereo is just fine. My music collection is stored on a Synology NAS (and not on the MacMini).


As I understand an LAN/ethernet DAC would come with the the limitation that it would be impossible to give back informations to the library (for example changing the track rating via JRemote wouldn't be possible any longer?!?). That would be a -no-go- for me.


I guess the specs are somehow:
- usb-DAC
- less than 500 €
- ability to handle DSD / .iso from SACD
- ability to give back information to the library (like changing data on any [field])

Any important argument against an USB-DAC?
Any suggestions one which DAC to choose?


Thanks for your help!

[DarkPenguin]

Topping D30 Pro looks the business. $400 at Apos.

[henning65]

@darkPenguin: Thanks - but.....

I should have mentioned that I do not buy products from Chinese companies. I know - its difficult / impossible to avoid parts from China. Maybe the product was assembled in China... BUT - If I KNOW the product is produced by a Chinese company. I will not buy.

[DarkPenguin]

Chord Hugo 2 DAC (/ headphone amp) and Chord 2YU Digital interface.

[newsposter]

are either one of the optical spdif inputs available?

[henning65]

are either one of the optical spdif inputs available?

@newsposter: actually I do not understand your question. Could you please rephrase it.

[henning65]

I do like to specify my search a little:

The specs are somehow:

• usb-DAC
• less than 500 €
• ability to handle DSD / .iso from SACD
• ability to handle DSD256 which implies that I'm looking for a DAC which can handle DoP (?!) as I'm running MC 27 on a MacMini.
• ability to give back information to the library (like changing data on any [field])

I think of buying the Cambridge Audio DacMagic 200M.
The fact, that I'm running MC 27 on Mac might be a problem (see: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,128944.0.html) as macOS "unfortunately with macOS and Core Audio only DoP is supported".


I would like to ask for your advice on the "Cambridge Audio DacMagic 200M".
=> Good choice? - Alternatives?
=> Can this DAC handle DoP?


------------
Using JRiver MC 27 on MacMini (late 2012).

[Awesome Donkey]

The Cambridge Audio DacMagic 200M supports DoP up to DSD256 over USB.

DSD512 with the Cambridge Audio DacMagic 200M requires native DSD with USB, so Windows and possibly Linux for that one. If DSD256 over USB using DoP is your goal, it should be fine.

[tdot]

I use a Topping E30.  It doesn't have many features, but I strictly use it with DAC mode so I don't care about lack of features.   Good clarity and soundstage.  Best bang for the buck.

*Edit*  Sorry, I just saw that you don't want a Chinese product.  Nevermind.

[tdot]

I do like to specify my search a little:

The specs are somehow:

• usb-DAC
• less than 500 €
• ability to handle DSD / .iso from SACD
• ability to handle DSD256 which implies that I'm looking for a DAC which can handle DoP (?!) as I'm running MC 27 on a MacMini.
• ability to give back information to the library (like changing data on any [field])

I think of buying the Cambridge Audio DacMagic 200M.
The fact, that I'm running MC 27 on Mac might be a problem (see: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,128944.0.html) as macOS "unfortunately with macOS and Core Audio only DoP is supported".


I would like to ask for your advice on the "Cambridge Audio DacMagic 200M".
=> Good choice? - Alternatives?
=> Can this DAC handle DoP?


------------
Using JRiver MC 27 on MacMini (late 2012).

BTW, Cambridge Audio products are also made in China.

DacMagic 200M has been getting great reviews.  I would love to have a listen and put it on my future upgrade list.

[henning65]

Thanks for the very quick responses.


@tdot:
Could you please offer some proof that the DAC "Cambridge Audio DacMagic 200M" is produced in China?

To be very precise: I made a decision to "no products from Chinese companies". My first goal is to avoid Chinese companies meaning a company producing in China and owned by Chinese - and / or bind to Chinese law (as a company).
It's a "nice to have", if I can avoid assembling and or any parts from China in the product - but that's difficult.
I do believe in my right as a consumer to not only get a certain usability but to have a right to insist in certain production standards. Human rights are part of this request.


@Awesome Donkey:
thanks for the clarification about DSD256. I do believe DSD512 is not very important as it wouldn't make much difference within my actual hardware-setting: It would be like a Lamborghini engine in a FordT. That might change, but not in the near future... 99,9% of my audio files are FLAC anyway. And within the small number of DSD "loosing" the ability to listen to DSD512 is of minor importance.

[tdot]

Thanks for the very quick responses.


@tdot:
Could you please offer some proof that the DAC "Cambridge Audio DacMagic 200M" is produced in China?

To be very precise: I made a decision to "no products from Chinese companies". My first goal is to avoid Chinese companies meaning a company producing in China and owned by Chinese - and / or bind to Chinese law (as a company).
It's a "nice to have", if I can avoid assembling and or any parts from China in the product - but that's difficult.
I do believe in my right as a consumer to not only get a certain usability but to have a right to insist in certain production standards. Human rights are part of this request.


@Awesome Donkey:
thanks for the clarification about DSD256. I do believe DSD512 is not very important as it wouldn't make much difference within my actual hardware-setting: It would be like a Lamborghini engine in a FordT. That might change, but not in the near future... 99,9% of my audio files are FLAC anyway. And within the small number of DSD "loosing" the ability to listen to DSD512 is of minor importance.

It is in Wikipedia.  It says Cambridge Audio has been manufacturing products in China since 1994.

[Wheaten]

it's even printed on the back.
https://darko.audio/2021/01/cambridge-audio-preps-dacmagic-200m/#&gid=1&pid=1
But a non China produced DAC under 500......, doen't leave much to choose.
brands like Shiit (US), border-control (US), Pro-ject (Austria, produced in Slovakia)

[Awesome Donkey]

I'd say the majority if not all of DACs out there are either made in China or are manufactured with Chinese-sourced parts and components, so it's probably unavoidable. Schiit is the one that I can immediately name off the top of my head for a US-based DAC manufacturer, but none of their DACs support DSD.

I use a Topping D50s and it's great, plays everything including DSD on Windows, macOS and Linux.

[henning65]

@tdot
thanks for this information!
It seams Cambridge Audio produces exclusively in China. That's not really on my wishlist!

I'm now searching for alternatives. I started from this list "testberichte" https://www.testberichte.de/f/1/3460/369241.369250/1.html and limited it to "USB" and "D/A". The list includes several products from Cambridge Audio, iFi, Audioquest, Korg and Pro-Ject.
There are more expensive products - but for now I would like to ignore them.

After visiting the homepage of the companies Pro-Ject seams to be 100% Europe.
Pro-Ject (Austria) - production & assembling: Europe
iFi (US) - production & assembling unknown
korg (Japan) - production & assembling unknown
Cambridge Audio (UK) - production & assembling: China
Audioquest (US) - production & assembling unknown

iFi audio

• Pro iDSD: plays even DSD1024, has USB and ethernet connection; not sure, if I could use it with my macOS hardware to listen to DoP (for DSD256), too expensive! (about 3k€)
• Zen DAC: DSD256; not sure I could listen to DoP; USB; prize: about 190€
• Zen DAC Signature: not sure about DSD; prize: about 270€

Korg

• DS-DAC-100: not sure it I understand it - seems the machine works with the ASIO - not sure which DSD / DoP would be supported; prize: around 235€

Pro-Ject

• Pro-Ject DAC Box DS2 ultra: USB up to DSD256 (DoP); support for DSD256; prize: 630€

Ranking on the page of "Testberichte":
1,3 ==> Cambridge Audio DacMagic 200M
1,4 ==> iFi audio Zen DAC
1,7 ==> Korg DS-DAC-100
1,8 ==> Pro-Ject DAC Box DS2 ultra
not on the list: iFi audio Zen DAC Signature


Summary
If the sound and DSD-handling capabilities are somehow the same AND as I vote against Cambridge Audio the iFi audio Zen DAC / Zen DAC Siganture would be the logical choice - I guess.

---------
That brings me to Questions:
--> I guess, but I'm not sure: can I listen to DSD256 (over DoP) in my hardware-setting with macOS and
a) iFi audio Zen DAC
b) iFi audio Zen DAC Signature
c) Korg DS-DAX-100
d) Pro-Ject DAC Box DS2 ultra?

--> Any information concerning production site of iFi (China yes / no would do)

[henning65]

We are talking about my personal pleasure time. I don't want to get a somehow "best-prize-product", which is very much associated with Chinese politics.
I can't enjoy music knowing that by buying a certain product I supported the Chinese government.

@Awesome Donkey:
The Topping D50 is produced by a Chinese company - That's a no-no go for me.

@Wheaten:
shiit: sounds interesting
BorderPatrol seams to be to expensive.

So I may add shiit to the short list
Modi Multibit: Prize: 319€
Modius - Balanced DAC: Prize: 229€

Again - same question:
can I listen to DSD256 (over DoP) in my hardware-setting with macOS and a shiit - DAC
e) Modi Multibit
f) Modius - Balanced DAC

[Awesome Donkey]

Again - same question:
can I listen to DSD256 (over DoP) in my hardware-setting with macOS and a shiit - DAC
e) Modi Multibit
f) Modius - Balanced DAC

Nope. As I said above in my last post, none of Schiit's DACs support DSD.

[henning65]

Thanks for all the help so far!

@Awesome Donkey:
Sorry, overlooked your feedback on Schiit.

What about the last two candidates?

• Korg DS-DAC-100
• Pro-Ject DAC Box DS2 ultra

For the Pro-Ject DAC Box DS2 ultra I read the specs as a confirmation: The DAC seams to be able to play DSD256. For the Korg DS-DAC-100 I'm not sure.

[Wheaten]

https://www.iear.nl/product/pro-ject-pre-box-s2-digital/ won rewards (don't let the size fool you 100x100x40mm). Built in Slovakia. Costs 375 Euro. And has a really good sound.
Supports DSD512, MQA, 8 filters. But  I doubt that the part are not from China.

The iFi Zen Dac is a UK brand, but also assembled in China. As it says so on mine, also good reviews. Cost 149 Euro


Here is the link to the Project DS2

Having them both, but the Pro-ject is my favorite (the first one).

[henning65]

@Wheaten: Thanks for your research. Both informations
--> related to iFi Zen DAC (assembling in China)
--> related to Pre Box S2 Digital (Slovakia / supports DSD512)
are really helpful to me!

The final Questions:
Can I listen to DSD256 (over DoP) in my hardware-setting with macOS and one of the candidates?

• Korg DS-DAC-100 (€235)
• Pro-Ject DAC Box DS2 ultra (€630)
• Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital (€375)

Thanks for your advice!

[Wheaten]

I will check the "Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital (€375)" on my MAC, give some time.

[Wheaten]

Answer is Yes.

DSP in MC27 Mac:


Screenshot Pro-ject S2 Digital:

[Hilton]

The iFi Micro iDSD Signature can do DSD256 DoP with firmware 5.2. I have one and it sounds better than my RME ADI-2 DAC.

On Firmware 5.3 DSD is reduced to DSD128 DoP because they shuffled around some code in the XMOS USB chip to enable MQA rendering.
Unfortunately the way MQA and the code works it puts an overhead on the USB chip that limits it to DSD256 Native or DSD128 DoP when using this firmware (whether decoding MQA or not).  But you still have the option of the 5.2 firmware that does DSD512 native (Windows/Linux) and DSD256 DoP.  (PC and MAC/Linux)

The ifi Signature DAC AMP works perfectly on Windows 10 JRiver MC with either firmware above and all sample rates upto DSD512 native with ASIO driver and PCM @ 768kHz on firmware 5.2. (DSD256 native and PCM 384kHz + MQA renderer on firmware 5.3 and 5.3c)

On a MAC you would get DSD128 DoP on firmware 5.3 & 5.3c and DSD256 DoP on firmware 5.2 (DSD512 only available with Native DSD playback on Windows and Linux)

On Firmware 5.2 and 5.3 it has a choice of 3 x PCM digital filters - Minimum phase, Standard and No Oversampling (NOS) and 3 x analogue DSD filters
 - Extreme, Extended and Standard.

On Firmware 5.3c it only has a Gibbs Transient Optimised (GTO) filter for PCM (plus MQA and limited to DSD128 DoP or DSD256 Native.)

This DAC/AMP even works on an iPhone with another player that support bit perfect playback.  Also on Android with another different player app. (not JRiver)

How does it sound?  Really really good.
I can't believe how much more I like this over my RME ADI-2 DAC. 
It's way more powerful (upto 4000mW per channel on turbo gain).
It's detailed but slightly smoother and very slightly warmer.
It also has ie match built in for high sensitivity IEMs like my Campfire Audio Andromeda's - that sound fantastic on the iFi.
Optical SPDIF in that I've used with Chromecast audio to stream upto 96k 24bit files no problem.
2 channel RCA out.
6.3mm headphone out.
4.4mm balanced headphone out.
3 headphone gain settings (Eco, Normal, Turbo)
3 ie match settings (off, high sens, ultra high sens)
xbass switch - dont use this (about +6db @ 20hz +4db @ 30hz +2db 60hz +1db 100hz +.05db 150hz and flat @ 500hz)
3D+ - dont use this unless it's a recording with hard panned intruments or vocals (headphone crossfeed type thing and it has a different effect on line out)
2 x dual core 1793 Burr-Brown DACS (dual mono with effectively 2 DAC per channel for better SNR and THD)
Native DSD decode DAC - doesnt do any internal resampling like a lot of the non-Native DSD DACS that do internal resampling on DSD
Native PCM decode to 768kHz 32bit
Hybrid Multibit / Delta-sigma architecture DAC

Unlike most delta-sigma architectures that convert everything to a 1-bit stream first before filtering, the iDSD preserves the high order 6-bits of a PCM data stream and only converts the rest of the low order bits via its internal 256fs (DSD256) modulator. iFi claims that this allows the iDSD to keep some of that Burr-Brown signature warmth while still retaining all the smoothness delta-sigma modulators are so famous for. Obviously for pure DSD input, those Burr-Brown's handle it natively using that same DSD256 modulator to convert to analog.

The different digital filters have more of an effect than the filters on the RME.  Standard sounds a little congested to me, minimum phase opens the sound up a bit and NOS also opens things up but can sound a bit bright on some tracks.  The differences are very very small and I would be happy with any of them except for maybe NOS.  The GTO filter similarly opens the sound up a bit and is very smooth and full sounding, it's probably my favourite.

I've listened extensively now with my Fostex TH610's and they sound way better on the iFi than on the RME. They need the power and the filters and musical warmth of the ifi compared to the clinical sounding RME.

My HD600s sound really really good, the best I've ever heard from them.  Some older Sony MDR1A's sound pretty good too though they are a bit muddy and boomy compared to the HD600 and TH610s.

Oh and when playing on my main system in 2 channel or 2.1 it sounds great! Better than the DAC in my receiver for sure and slightly better than the RME. SMooooother.

20210310_212152 by Hilton, on Flickr

iFi iDSD Signature - iPhone SE - Perfect! by Hilton, on Flickr

DSD256 by Hilton, on Flickr

384khz by Hilton, on Flickr

Connected to my DX220 DAP via USB
iFi iDSD DX220 MQA DSD256 by Hilton, on Flickr


JRiver MC playing MQA file over DLNA to USB Audio Player pro doing first unfold and DAC doing final full MQA render (MQA renderer is just a MQA filter). (ifi iDSD Signature DAC connected to Samsung Galaxy note 20ultra)
JRiver UAPP DSD MQA by Hilton, on Flickr

JRiver MC playing DSD128 over DLNA to USB Audio Player pro (ifi iDSD Signature DAC connected to Samsung Galaxy note 20ultra)
JRiver UAPP DSD MQA by Hilton, on Flickr

JRiver MC playing DSD256 over DLNA to USB Audio Player Pro (ifi iDSD Signature DAC connected to Samsung Galaxy note 20ultra)
JRiver UAPP DSD MQA by Hilton, on Flickr

JRiver MC playing 352.8kHz DXD over DLNA to USB Audio Player Pro (ifi iDSD Signature DAC connected to Samsung Galaxy note 20ultra)
JRiver UAPP DSD MQA by Hilton, on Flickr

[henning65]

@Hilton

Thanks for this detailed information on the iFi Micro iDSD Signature.

I would be happy, if you could add two information:

(1) I'm a little embarrassed to ask: I can't see any track ratings on your pictures of JRemote. Are you able to rate tracks in your setup with the iFi Micro iDSD Signatur?
(2) as you can see in a picture presented by Wheaten: The iFi Zen DAC is assembled in China. Do you have any information on the location of production & assembling of the iFi Micro iDSD Signature?

Thanks for helping!

[Awesome Donkey]

From the images of the iFi Micro iDSD Signature that I found, it says it's manufactured/assembled in China on the bottom of the case. I'm afraid your DAC choices are going to be very limited if it's even doable at all with your Chinese restriction. DACs are either going to be made by Chinese companies or they're manufactured/assembled in China. Or in the case of Schiit they're made in the US but they don't support DSD in their DACs (as they see DSD as a waste of time, like they do with MQA).

Very likely if a DAC is being mass produced (like most are), it's going to be manufactured/assembled in China to keep the costs down, otherwise it'll bite into their margins.

The way I see it right now is you're either going to get lucky and find a DAC that meets your requirements or you're going to have to compromise in some way; either by accepting a DAC that's been manufactured/assembled in China or you'd have to give up on features like DSD support and go for a made in the US manufacturer like Schitt.

Good luck in your search.

P.S. Hilton isn't using JRemote in his screenshots, he's using USB Audio Player Pro.

[Wheaten]

and there is also a system called google...........

[Hilton]

@Hilton

Thanks for this detailed information on the iFi Micro iDSD Signature.

I would be happy, if you could add two information:

(1) I'm a little embarrassed to ask: I can't see any track ratings on your pictures of JRemote. Are you able to rate tracks in your setup with the iFi Micro iDSD Signatur?
(2) as you can see in a picture presented by Wheaten: The iFi Zen DAC is assembled in China. Do you have any information on the location of production & assembling of the iFi Micro iDSD Signature?

Thanks for helping!

As mentioned im not using JRemote as the iphone or android player.  JRemote Android unfortunately doesnt play bit perfect because it uses the native audio stack that upsamples and downsamples everything to 16bit 48khz. 

USB Audio Player Pro for Android has it's own USB driver that bypasses the native android audio stack to give direct access to the DAC. 
I was showing you how I can stream from JRiver MediaCentre to USB Audio Player Pro over wifi using the DLNA protocol to fully decode all formats the DAC supports.

JRemote for iOS I believe will do most PCM formats bitperfect to the DAC but it doesnt support DSD DoP (that i can get working anyway) or MQA.

As mentioned by others your "No Chinese" constraint really does limit you massively.  iFi is a British company that assembles and manufactures in China as mentioned by others.

As for song ratings,  USB Audio Player Pro (UAPP) doesn't read song rating tags or support using your own local tags.  There are ways around that using custom views in JRiver MC DLNA Media Server settings to create a custom set of filters that display tracks by rating, artist, album that will then allow you to use folders to drill down by rating and then other tags such as album, artist, year or other custom combinations.

Neutron Player for Android and iPhone supports all file formats to the DAC the same as UAPP except for MQA. It can also access JRiver MC over DLNA the same as UAAP but it caches the DLNA metadata, tags and album art because it scans the whole DLNA structure into its own local database. 

For this reason it's much faster loading than most other DLNA players because it scans upfront, stores it and then checks for changes and updates every-time you reconnect it or start it so that it stays in sync.  It's by far the most complete and very very complex  iOS and Android player out there, but out of box it's not too bad once you get used to some of it's weirdness with settings UI and navigation.   It also doesnt read song tags but it does have the ability to store its own local song ratings. It works very well once configured, but UAPP is far more elegant, simple and works with everything, you just don't have song tags natively but as mentioned you can work around that on the server end in JRiver by creating a custom view for the DLNA server.

Oh I forgot one of the most important features of the iDSD Signature... it's battery powered and portable.  I literally use it EVERYWHERE.  Washing up, mowing the lawn, on the bus, at the cafe, at my PC, on the lounge, on the deck, at work, going for a walk or annoying the neighbours with my hifi system.  It pays itself off in no-time because I get such great use from it and I'm selling off all my other DACs and DAPs.   I've bought an iPhone SE specifically for it that is double sided taped to it.  (and an iPad mini with keyboard when Im desk bound) That's how much i love it and use it.

iFi iDSD portable rig by Hilton, on Flickr

For Better or for Worse - Too Far for Gracie by Hilton, on Flickr

iFi iDSD Signature - TH610 Lawton Black Limba by Hilton, on Flickr

[henning65]

@Wheaten
@Awesome Donkey
@Hilton

Thanks for all your help! I needed some time to get feedback from the company - I hope you will also find the following information helpful.

Concerning production in China / components from China
I contacted the company Pro-Ject via homepage. I was redirected to the German general distributer "ATR - Audio Trage Hifi-Vertriebsgesellschaft mbH", Mόhlheim an der Ruhr.

Today I had a phone call with one of their employees. She confirmed:
a) Pro-Ject uses no components from mainland China.
b) Pro-Ject produces the majority of components in own facilities in Europe.
c) Pro-Ject chooses supplier (also) related to the question if they produce in mainland China (as the DAC contains two main components from ESS Technology (the ESS9038Q2M and the ESS9602) this is relevant)

As you mentioned in your posts:
Yes it limited my choice as the number of products which deliver on my "no-China" policy is small.
And Yes, I truly believe, that I will enjoy listening to music knowing my pleasure is not related to any kind of human rights violations.

[Dennis in FL]

I use a Topping D50s and it's great, plays everything including DSD on Windows, macOS and Linux.

I was just looking at the Topping E30.   Is the D50 the same gadget except it has bluetooth?  The Topping DACs look like a real budget priced winner.   

Update....I just noticed the DAC chips are different.  AKM vs. ESS.

Also noticed not much of a price difference on Amazon --- $150 (E30) vs $212 (D50s-silver)

[Awesome Donkey]

The D50s is a pretty nice DAC... the *only* issue is with the ASIO driver, it doesn't support exclusive mode with PCM audio (but does with native DSD), which is a bit of a bummer as I'd much prefer using ASIO exclusive over ASIO shared so I have to use WASAPI exclusive.

[jjazdk]

Concerning production in China / components from China
I contacted the company Pro-Ject via homepage. I was redirected to the German general distributer "ATR - Audio Trage Hifi-Vertriebsgesellschaft mbH", Mόhlheim an der Ruhr.

Today I had a phone call with one of their employees. She confirmed:
a) Pro-Ject uses no components from mainland China.
b) Pro-Ject produces the majority of components in own facilities in Europe.
c) Pro-Ject chooses supplier (also) related to the question if they produce in mainland China (as the DAC contains two main components from ESS Technology (the ESS9038Q2M and the ESS9602) this is relevant)

Statement "a" is obviously false. Using no components from mainland China is not realistic, when you look inside the products. I simply don't believe that not a single component on the PCBA is from China.
"b" is also a lie. Pro-Ject does not produce their own electronic components, every capacitor, resistor, coil, transistor, chip, etc, is bought from other manufacturers.

Keep in mind that I have nothing against Pro-ject, in fact we just bought two of their Amp Box DS2 at my workplace.

[Dennis in FL]

The D50s is a pretty nice DAC... the *only* issue is with the ASIO driver, it doesn't support exclusive mode with PCM audio (but does with native DSD), which is a bit of a bummer as I'd much prefer using ASIO exclusive over ASIO shared so I have to use WASAPI exclusive.

I've got a Mac....no driver needed.   

[henning65]

Statement "a" is obviously false. Using no components from mainland China is not realistic, when you look inside the products. I simply don't believe that not a single component on the PCBA is from China.
"b" is also a lie. Pro-Ject does not produce their own electronic components, every capacitor, resistor, coil, transistor, chip, etc, is bought from other manufacturers.

Keep in mind that I have nothing against Pro-ject, in fact we just bought two of their Amp Box DS2 at my workplace.

@jjazdk
I do question your feedback and I do trust in direct communication.

If you have proof to your statement, please come forward and present your evidence.
If you don't have proof, if your statement is mainly based on your assumption or "perception of reality", this might be the time to reconsider: Just because most companies do produce in or buy from mainland china doesn't imply that's not possible.

And
Why should Pro-Ject (or in my case the company working very close with Pro-Ject) lie anyway? If it would be true what you say: "Using no components from mainland China is not realistic". WHY should a company lie? As I wouldn't have a possibility to follow my buying-criterion "no mainland-China" the company wouldn't even loose a customer (as I couldn't fulfill this criterion anyway). BUT to lie - that would make the company Pro-Ject vulnerable. As clearly: I would never buy again from this company AND I would talk about it with other potential costumers. In conclusion: There is no logic explanation why the company should lie about avoiding "mainland-China" in the first place.


As evidence I would like to accept information like:
- pictures from components from within a Pro-Ject DAC with a print "Made in China".
- statement from a supply-company stating "our components are used within..."
- statement from Pro-Ject with a communication "we use components from ...."
- scientific analyses of components from Pro-Ject DAC proving, that this components have been product by...

second best
- an investigative article which states "Pro-Ject uses components from..." from a well known source.
- a statement from a well trusted investigative journalist with the content "Pro-Ject uses components from..."

If you say "I simply don't believe": this is no argument to me. Actually I do have the impression that you are addressing my wish to buy a "non-mainland-China" product and that you try to discretize not only the company representative I spoke to but any company representative who gives any statement like "yes, we don't buy mainland-China". I hope that's not your intention.

[DarkPenguin]

The F7 caps are made in China. The ESS chips look to be made in China. Xmos is fabless which is going to mean China or Taiwan. That's just a quick look.

[Wheaten]

The F7 caps OCZR are produced by Lelon in china
The Wima caps are from Germany
Sabre ES9602Q, ESS technology inc, US company with facilities in China

So I do think the lady at Pro-ject was a bit optimistic. And even doubt if she has access to the component list with C.O.O. But whatever components they used, bought. its assembled in Slovakia, so C.O.O. is Slovakia.

[henning65]

@Wheaten
@DarkPenguin

Thanks for your research. As I said before, I was not in contact with Pro-Ject directly but with the German main distribution company.

Concerning your findings:
I would like to get in contact with the German company ATR again - and maybe with Pro-Ject directly. I would like to phone them, maybe Monday / Tuesday. To get a convincing and detailed answer I would like to ask for some help.

Actually I do believe in a globalized economy its difficult to avoid mainland-China by 100% (Meaning down to every bolt). I do believe in efficiency (equivalent here would be to main components and - lets say - the majority of the material).

I would like to ask for feedback on the draft for communication (see below) especially concerning the list of main components.
==> Please add further main components, if necessary. Please be very precise for the naming.
==> Please help with the full name for "F7 caps OCZR".

As soon as possible, I would like to contact the company. I will feedback in this post.


----- draft for the communication with ATR / Pro-Ject--------
Hallo
I'm a customer of Pro-Ject. And I would like to know more about the production of the product PRE BOX S2 DIGITAL.
At the 7.4.2021 I contacted ATR by phone and ask about the origin of the components of the product PRE BOX S2 DIGITAL. I was talking to a female employee of ATR. She assured that Pro-Ject does not use / buy components from mainland-China. She confirmed

• Pro-Ject uses no components from mainland China.
• Pro-Ject produces the majority of components in own facilities in Europe.
• Pro-Ject chooses supplier (also) related to the question if they produce in mainland China (as the DAC contains two main components from ESS Technology (the ESS9038Q2M and the ESS9602) this is relevant)

I posted the ATR-feedback in a forum for media-software. I got feedback which questions the ATR-statement. To rule out any misunderstanding and to clarify the origin of the components within the product PRE BOX S2 DIGITAL I would like to ask ATR and / or Pro-Ject for some information:

Main components:
The DAC has two main components:

• 2 D/A Chips ESS9038Q2M: This component is supplied by the US-Company ESS Technology. Does Pro-Ject has knowledge, that the chip is NOT ASSEMBLED in mainland-China?
• 1 headphone chip ESS9602: This component is supplied by the US-Company ESS Technology. Does Pro-Ject has knowledge, that the chip is NOT ASSEMBLED in mainland-China?

About the origin of other components?
Does the other components of the product PRE BOX S2 DIGITAL origin — completely / in the majority / about half / to a small part / not at all — origin from mainland-China?

The differentiation between -- completely / in the majority / about half / to a small part / not at all -- should be made based on the percentage of the €-price for a single component in relation to the €-sum for all components.

Please follow the following definition:

• completely:= at least 95% of all "other" components
• in the majority:= more than 70%, less than 95%
• about half:= more than 30%, less than 70%
• to a small part:= more than 5%, less than 30%
• not at all:= less than 5%

Please acknowledge the following tracking rule:
A component is defined as a single piece of material. The component might have been assembled by the supplying company from parts. For this question only the location of the factory which produced the component is relevant - not the origin of the parts of a component.

----------end of draft---------

[Wheaten]

I think you are going a bit over the top.

As you're concerned about the human rights, why not simple asked what processes they have in place to ensure human rights are not being violated with the companies they use as suppliers. As I sincerely doubt they are going to answer your mal in such details?

[Awesome Donkey]

I think you are going a bit over the top.

I agree. There's literally not going to be any way that a DAC (or really any electronic device with capacitors, chips, etc.) isn't going to be manufactured using components built in China or Taiwan, because that's really where they all come from. While the product(s) you're seeking (e.g. DACs) might be manufactured/build in another country of origin, they still will contain China-built components. So while you might be trying to avoid supporting China keep in mind you might not be, but all the companies sourcing the components that are built in China are one way or another supporting China. So no matter what somewhere in the supply chain there's going to be a company or entity that's sourcing those China-based components.

It's just... unavoidable. And it's unrealistic to think you can completely avoid that, because you can't. Something is always going to be made in China or Taiwan whether it be capacitors, or the chips, etc. I don't like how China handles (or lack thereof) human rights practices either, but with certain things especially electronics, there's just no way around it. With other products like clothing you can find US-based companies that source the materials within the US and manufacture the clothing, so it's all US-based. But electronics and the components for electronic devices, that's something else entirely, almost all of it is manufactured in China and Taiwan. What Wheaten suggested is a good idea, see if those companies source their components from suppliers that that care about human rights, because there are some that do, but that too might increase costs that are passed on to the consumer, so don't be surprised if they're not.

Yes, it would be nice if the US and other countries would build the fabs to manufacture all the components themselves, but the cold hard truth is a) it's going to cost more to produce the same components and those costs would be passed along to the consumers and because of that b) nobody wants to pay more for the same things when companies in China/Taiwan can manufacture everything much cheaper.

[henning65]

@Wheaten
@Awesome Donkey
@DarkPenguin
@jjazdk
@Hilton

Thank you for your feedback as it really pushed the debate I believe. I started with the goal to simply minimize the relevance of mainland-China. Now we discuss a specific company and it's no longer about "all DAC come from mainland-China", but a detailed discussion about certain components of a DAC. To me this is astonishing.


In my next direct communication with ATR / Pro-Ject I would like to specify as detailed as possible how much effort they spend to avoid mainland-China. To do so, I would like to ask for your advice, which components are important for the DAC.
Might it be the capacitor - would you consider this component a "main component" or could it be summarized under "other components".


To clarify:
I do not expect, that the company can avoid components from mainland-China completely. By differential between "main components" and "other component" and by the categories "completely / in the majority / about half / to a small part / not at all" I would like to be able to make an informed decision.
I do not expect the company to answer on all details. But I want to be prepared, if the company is willing to present information.
I distinguish between Taiwan and mainland-China. I have no opinion on products from Taiwan. So please don't mix these two states up.
In my first call the ATR-employee already stated, that Pro-Ject has a policy to produce in-house and to buy from outside mainland-China. This statement to me is still valide. BUT, as you and others have pointed out, it is "unavoidable" to produce electronic devices with components from mainland-China. This conflict between the general ATR-statement and your opinions need further clarification I think: I would like to learn, how many (in percent) components of the Pro-Ject DAC come from mainland-China.

To me it is out of question, that Pro-Ject is not a mainland-China company and Pro-Ject does not assemble their products in China. Many other companies do.
To me it is out of question, that two main components (ESS9038Q2M & ESS9602) are produced by the US company ESS Technology.
To me it is out of question, that the company doesn't buy "completely / in the majority / about half" of the "other components" in mainland-China.
I would like to clarify, if my understanding of the communication with ATR so far is correct and if the Pro-Ject product has components from mainland-China "to a small part" or even "not at all". (If "not at all" I believe the process might not be finished, as there might be further need for clarification.)


I strongly believe, that it is clearly possible to distinguish between the producing & buying policy of Pro-Ject and other DAC producing companies. I simply want to know how "clean of mainland-China" Pro-Ject is.
To me - as pointed out earlier - the human rights policy is a criterion while choosing a product. For sure, the human-right policy of the supplying companies is an important information. But - as pointed out earlier - all business carried out in a state is "somehow" supporting the government. I believe it's simply irrational to believe, that a company could run a business and at the same time be in conflict with specific types of government.

And YES: I do understand that higher production cost are realistic, if the production of components and/or the assembling takes place outside mainland-China. I am willing to pay for such a product. As to me this is a premium quality criterion.

[jjazdk]

To me it is out of question, that two main components (ESS9038Q2M & ESS9602) are produced by the US company ESS Technology.

You did read that ESS Technology has sites in China, right?

If ESS produced their chips in the US it would be plastered all over their website. Since that is not the case they are definitely made in another country (might even be from one of several countries, lots of companies have production in more than one country).

I am sorry, but you do seem unrealistic in your beliefs here..