Topic: Output device for USB DAC (Read 9228 times)

Cheyworth · « **on:** March 31, 2021, 10:33:51 am »

Hi all, I have installed JRiver on Dabian Linux and I have it working connected to my DLNA server and is playing (upsampling to DSD128 fine)
but i have a huge list of output devices even though my Di322 DAC is the only sound device connected.

Which is correct?

stefano_mbp · « **Reply #1 on:** March 31, 2021, 11:14:41 am »

It should be the one just below the selected one .... hw:CARD= ........

Cheyworth · « **Reply #2 on:** March 31, 2021, 11:20:53 am »

ha! of course it is, will give it a go.

Chris

Cheyworth · « **Reply #3 on:** March 31, 2021, 12:40:44 pm »

working fine....so far.

hillcreative · « **Reply #4 on:** April 12, 2021, 10:43:55 pm »

Have a similar problem not knowing is the best selection using a external USB DAC (Yellowtec) Any suggestions?

Wheaten · « **Reply #5 on:** April 13, 2021, 01:15:16 am »

you've highlighted the correct one :-)

hillcreative · « **Reply #6 on:** April 13, 2021, 05:28:10 am »

Quote from: Wheaten on April 13, 2021, 01:15:16 am

you've highlighted the correct one :-)

Thought so... It appears that ALSA is defaulting to 48Khz. I;m thinking I should be using 88.2Khz as all my source files are 44,1 16 bit CD rips. The USB card goes out to 192 but anything over 48 throws a playback error.

Wheaten · « **Reply #7 on:** April 13, 2021, 08:28:26 am »

just to be sure, this is the one I mean:

It might possible be an driver issue, as the HW version should work without any issues.
If you configured something in DSP, turn it of and retry. No upsampling, no conversion.

hillcreative · « **Reply #8 on:** April 13, 2021, 08:53:09 am »

Yes I;m using that setting. Here;s what I want to do:
-All source material is 44.1Khz 16 bit linear PCM WAV files (ripped from CD)
-The USB audio DAC can run as high as 192Khz 24 bits

I was thinking I should resample output to DAC to 88.2Khz 24bit stereo.

Problem: anything over 48Khz causes a playback error stating that 44.1 wont playon my hardware.

What is the best way use Media Center for best quality output?

Wheaten · « **Reply #9 on:** April 13, 2021, 09:30:28 am »

Quote

What is the best way use Media Center for best quality output?

There are a lot of opinions on that question, so it might start a discussion, but here I go:
I don't want any source manipulation in my audio. If the source is 44.1kHz than I will play it like that.
Not looking for interpolated notes or double samples of the same note.
However your DAC really likes to oversampling, as this makes the filter much cheaper to produce.
This article might be interesting.

hillcreative · « **Reply #10 on:** April 13, 2021, 09:54:28 am »

Interesting reading and equally interesting opinion. I always thought over sampling at 88.2Khz was better than upsampling to 48Khz. Doesn't the math work better? Assuming I don't want to molest the original audio in any way I would need to set things up for 44.1Khz but alas I keep getting that pesky playback error. The screen below is the only way things seem to work right.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #11 on:** April 13, 2021, 10:11:06 am »

That's really odd that it won't go past 48 kHz with the hw: output unless you're outputting to a Bluetooth device (speakers?) or something like that...

But it also looks like you're using Media Center 24, is this correct? If so it may be too old for that newer Ubuntu, which because it's older (with older libraries and dependencies) it may have issues with newer versions of Linux distros. Linux is the least friendly when it comes to backwards compatibility with older Media Center versions and is most likely to break with them as time goes on. You might try trialing MC27 and see if you can reproduce the issue there as there's been a good number of improvements since MC24.

Wheaten · « **Reply #12 on:** April 13, 2021, 10:36:50 am »

Quote

I always thought over sampling at 88.2Khz was better than upsampling to 48Khz

You thought is correct. oversampling is way better than up sample.
I've read a piece, which i can't find anymore. It showed that with up sample form 44.1 to 48 only 1 out of 11 bits actual match with the original. This means that the up sampled audio only match the original track in 10%. All other bits have been interpolated.
Oversampling just doubles the info, which in theory should not affect the sound, unless you have a crappy DAC, then the oversampled track might sound better.

hillcreative · « **Reply #13 on:** April 13, 2021, 10:43:10 am »

Quote from: Awesome Donkey on April 13, 2021, 10:11:06 am

That's really odd that it won't go past 48 kHz with the hw: output unless you're outputting to a Bluetooth device (speakers?) or something like that...

But it also looks like you're using Media Center 24, is this correct? If so it may be too old for that newer Ubuntu, which because it's older (with older libraries and dependencies) it may have issues with newer versions of Linux distros. Linux is the least friendly when it comes to backwards compatibility with older Media Center versions and is most likely to break with them as time goes on. You might try trialing MC27 and see if you can reproduce the issue there as there's been a good number of improvements since MC24.

Just been lazy!

Next thing I'll do then reprt back

hillcreative · « **Reply #14 on:** April 13, 2021, 12:48:40 pm »

Sorry for not knowing but can you point me to the link that explains how to upgrade/install for Ubuntu?
Thanks a bunch Wheaten!
Mitch

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #15 on:** April 13, 2021, 12:49:30 pm »

Here you go: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,126894.0.html

hillcreative · « **Reply #16 on:** April 13, 2021, 01:45:56 pm »

Installation of MediaCenter27 went smoothly. Nagging question: why does the program refer to itself as MediaCenter 27 PackageInstaller?

Wheaten · « **Reply #17 on:** April 13, 2021, 02:12:58 pm »

guess you started the package installer instead of mediacenter?

hillcreative · « **Reply #18 on:** April 13, 2021, 02:16:45 pm »

Quote from: Wheaten on April 13, 2021, 02:12:58 pm

guess you started the package installer instead of mediacenter?

I deserve that... actually if I start any MC27 app I end up with this. How can I find the real app?
It alsohappens when I type MediaCenter27 in terminal

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #19 on:** April 13, 2021, 03:26:22 pm »

That is the real app. It's from a recent change in Media Center 27 where PackageInstaller was implemented which is needed and used to get skin and plugin installations working. The downside is it creates multiple icons in the dash now, and Bob will have to answer whether or not the multiple dash icons thing can be avoided (because honestly it is annoying, especially when using Ubuntu with its dash or GNOME with Dash to Dock.

But what about your DAC, can it output above 48 kHz when Output Format is disabled/unchecked?

hillcreative · « **Reply #20 on:** April 13, 2021, 03:29:11 pm »

Quote from: Awesome Donkey on April 13, 2021, 03:26:22 pm

That is the real app. It's from a recent change in Media Center 27 where PackageInstaller was implemented which is needed and used to get skin and plugin installations working. The downside is it creates multiple icons in the dash now, and Bob will have to answer whether or not the multiple dash icons thing can be avoided (because honestly it is annoying, especially when using Ubuntu with its dash or GNOME with Dash to Dock.

But what about your DAC, can it output above 48 kHz when Output Format is disabled/unchecked?

I'm sorry about nitpicking

hillcreative · « **Reply #21 on:** April 13, 2021, 03:33:11 pm »

A bit more on topic. MC insists on resampling the output as seen here. How can I change this? I haven't had any luck under DSP Output.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #22 on:** April 13, 2021, 03:34:04 pm »

DSP Studio > Output Format > Sample rate and change every one of them to No change and restart MC to be sure.

hillcreative · « **Reply #23 on:** April 13, 2021, 03:44:09 pm »

Quote from: Awesome Donkey on April 13, 2021, 03:34:04 pm

DSP Studio > Output Format > Sample rate and change every one of them to No change and restart MC to be sure.

Did all that and something overrides my "no change" settings. Something called SSRC

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #24 on:** April 13, 2021, 04:21:46 pm »

It's because you're still converting the source (44.1 kHz) to 48 kHz.

Change all of the Outputs under Sample rate to No change, and not just 48,000 Hz.

hillcreative · « **Reply #25 on:** April 13, 2021, 05:08:52 pm »

Quote from: Awesome Donkey on April 13, 2021, 04:21:46 pm

It's because you're still converting the source (44.1 kHz) to 48 kHz.

Change all of the Outputs under Sample rate to No change, and not just 48,000 Hz.

Yes I start with changing everything to "no change" as seen below. Then after restart MC27 sets it all back to 48Khz.

mwillems · « **Reply #26 on:** April 13, 2021, 06:40:27 pm »

Your screenshots suggest that you're trying to change resampling while audio is playing (at the top it says "processing", and you've got an audio level in the lower left hand corner). That won't work well. Try stopping playback entirely (not pause) before making any changes in DSP studio's output format block. MC won't typically let you change sampling rates on DACs during playback of a single track.

If that's not it, I've encountered a similar issue when I'm using the same device for global output (with pulse) and then trying to use hardware direct outputs in MC. The issue is that pulseaudio sometimes grabs the device and doesn't release it again, locking the sample rate to 48KHz, and then when MC tries to play to the device it either errors or offers to try a working format (which resamples to 48KHz). Sometimes MC will automatically try a working format depending on your settings.

Try making sure that your system default sound device is set to a different device than the USB DAC, and then see if you can make the "no change" settings stick. If so, you're seeing the same issue I saw. If not you've got a different problem.

hillcreative · « **Reply #27 on:** April 13, 2021, 06:43:07 pm »

Quote from: mwillems on April 13, 2021, 06:40:27 pm

Your screenshots suggest that you're trying to change resampling while audio is playing (at the top it says "processing"). That won't work well. Try stopping playback before making any changes in DSP studio's output format block.

If that's not it, I've encountered a similar issue when I'm using the same device for global output (with pulse) and then trying to use hardware direct outputs in MC. The issue is that pulseaudio sometimes grabs the device and doesn't release it again, locking the sample rate to 48KHz, and then when MC tries to play to the device it either errors or offers to try a working format (which resamples to 48KHz). Sometimes MC will automatically try a working format depending on your settings.

Try making sure that your system default sound device is set to a different device than the USB DAC, and then see if you can make the "no change" settings stick. If so, you're seeing the same issue I saw. If not you've got a different problem.

Interesting. I wonder what would happen if I change the Pulse default sample rate...

mwillems · « **Reply #28 on:** April 13, 2021, 06:45:28 pm »

Quote from: hillcreative on April 13, 2021, 06:43:07 pm

Interesting. I wonder what would happen if I change the Pulse default sample rate...

At first, I did exactly that because most of my audio is 44KHz so setting that as the pulse default resolved the "conflict" between system-wide sound and MC hardware direct output most of the time. There are also settings you can configure for pulse so that pulse won't try and resample audio but just pass through at native resolution, which is what I use now for convenience instead of hardware direct outputs (which are bitperfect but can be finicky).

But you should try setting the output format sampling rates with audio playback stopped first, that's more likely to be the immediate issue.

hillcreative · « **Reply #29 on:** April 13, 2021, 06:48:03 pm »

Quote from: mwillems on April 13, 2021, 06:45:28 pm

But you should try setting the output format sampling rates with audio playback stopped first, that's more likely to be the immediate issue.

Did as you suggest with all stop but no joy. Thanks again for your help. Mitch

mwillems · « **Reply #30 on:** April 13, 2021, 06:54:08 pm »

Quote from: hillcreative on April 13, 2021, 06:48:03 pm

Did as you suggest with all stop but no joy. Thanks again for your help. Mitch

Until you get the hardware direct output figured out, what I'm doing these days is using pulse as my MC output device, but making sure that the "avoid-resampling" option is set to yes in /etc/pulse/daemon.conf. With that option pulse will avoid resampling and I can confirm that my DAC gets audio from MC at native resolution frictionlessly (my DAC has an LED display showing sample rate so it's easy to test). The only time pulse resamples with those settings is if two audio sources are playing at the same time with different sample rates (first playing wins).

It might not be bitperfect, but given that it reportedly passes through DSD/DOP correctly (see https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,128881.0.html), it may just be bit perfect. In any case it will give you something "pretty close" as a stop gap until you can sort out what's causing your hardware direct option to fail.

hillcreative · « **Reply #31 on:** April 13, 2021, 07:14:24 pm »

Using default ALSA output device (Pulse Audio Server). All resample work as they should.Does the screenshot suggest Pulse is doing the resampling or passing direct to hardware?

mwillems · « **Reply #32 on:** April 13, 2021, 07:48:06 pm »

Quote from: hillcreative on April 13, 2021, 07:14:24 pm

Using default ALSA output device (Pulse Audio Server). All resample work as they should.Does the screenshot suggest Pulse is doing the resampling or passing direct to hardware?

Start some music playing, and then enter "pactl list sinks" in a terminal, the command will tell you the output format it's actually sending. The command will list all audio output devices (aka "sinks"). Look for the sink with "state: RUNNING" and the "sample specification" entry will be near the top of the info for that sink. If it shows the correct sample rate than pulse is avoiding resampling. If it shows a different sample rate then pulse is resampling.

hillcreative · « **Reply #33 on:** April 13, 2021, 10:26:38 pm »

I have ALSA set to oversample 44.1 to 88.2. The results of your query show 48 at 24 bit so it looks like a resample using default ALSA.

mwillems · « **Reply #34 on:** April 14, 2021, 08:07:09 am »

That's odd. Just to confirm, you did edit the /etc/pulse/daemon.conf file as described above and restart the computer(or at least the pulse daemon), right?

hillcreative · « **Reply #35 on:** April 14, 2021, 09:48:00 am »

Quote from: mwillems on April 14, 2021, 08:07:09 am

That's odd. Just to confirm, you did edit the /etc/pulse/daemon.conf file as described above and restart the computer(or at least the pulse daemon), right?

Sorry, I'm working on editing Pulse config now then I'll re-run the test

hillcreative · « **Reply #36 on:** April 14, 2021, 09:29:29 pm »

I'm embarrassed to say as a Linux newbie changing the Pulse Audio config file to allow (commented) self spawn to no and avoid resample to yes has no affect on changing the default resample rate to 48Khz. I either need step by step instructions to do this or I must wait until something gets fixed in hardware for a USB DAC. The company that makes it says its a type 2 USB device and should work. Cheers!

vcastceo · « **Reply #37 on:** April 15, 2021, 05:44:25 am »

I also need to connect to my DAC with USB.
But I can't find any USBAudio as all others have....
I use Raspberry Pi 4 and it runs debian buster.

This is what I have on the list...
Which one I have to select for connect USB DAC?

Wheaten · « **Reply #38 on:** April 15, 2021, 06:21:40 am »

- Which dac?
- Which linux distro?
- Which MC version?

As far As I can see, your DAC is not supported, at least your distro misses drivers.

hillcreative · « **Reply #39 on:** April 15, 2021, 05:48:19 pm »

Quote from: hillcreative on April 14, 2021, 09:48:00 am

Sorry, I'm working on editing Pulse config now then I'll re-run the test

OK I'm sad to report that no matter how I edit the PulseAudio config file I can't change the sample rate above 48Khz even though my Yellotec PUC2 can work well above that. No setting inside MC27 appears to change that and results in a error with anything set above 48Khz. Yellotec says their device is a USB2 compliant device and the native drivers in Ubuntu should work. So....I'm stuck at 44.1 24 bits.

Dennis in FL · « **Reply #40 on:** April 17, 2021, 11:52:04 am »

I just moved my DAC to my Raspi. I’ll let you know how it goes.

Wheaten · « **Reply #41 on:** April 17, 2021, 11:55:46 am »

Quote from: hillcreative on April 15, 2021, 05:48:19 pm

OK I'm sad to report that no matter how I edit the PulseAudio config file I can't change the sample rate above 48Khz even though my Yellotec PUC2 can work well above that. No setting inside MC27 appears to change that and results in a error with anything set above 48Khz. Yellotec says their device is a USB2 compliant device and the native drivers in Ubuntu should work. So....I'm stuck at 44.1 24 bits.

Can you set the default system sound to something else than the USB thingy.
Restart JRiver and try again

Use a different player like VLC, and play a track with a sample frequency above 48K and report the results.

hillcreative · « **Reply #42 on:** April 17, 2021, 08:58:39 pm »

Quote from: Wheaten on April 17, 2021, 11:55:46 am

Can you set the default system sound to something else than the USB thingy.
Restart JRiver and try again

Use a different player like VLC, and play a track with a sample frequency above 48K and report the results.

Same results using the internal Digital out from the computer. So the problem is not MC27 or the USB DAC

Dennis in FL · « **Reply #43 on:** April 18, 2021, 03:49:08 am »

I installed my DAC on a RASPI 4 yesterday and immediately checked audio path and I was outputting at Hi Res.....(352kHz/32 bit) using hw:direct output to DAC. I decided to try some other DAC options.....like sysdefault. Then I got 48kHz to the DAC no matter what I tried. And my sample output table had been changed to 48,000Hz for all frequencies...just like your screenshot above.

I tried going back to what I originally had and it was still outputting in 48kHz!!!! Ouch.....what the ... ?? I rebooted the computer and same thing ... 48kHz......then I noticed that Output Format was still checked and MC was converting and outputting everything in 48kHz.

So I unchecked the output format box and all was well with the world.

I'm now back to Hi Res direct to USB DAC.

[screenshots]

hillcreative · « **Reply #44 on:** April 18, 2021, 08:12:55 am »

If I turn off Output Format and select my USB DAC on reboot MC27 checks the Output Format and resamples to 48

Dennis in FL · « **Reply #45 on:** April 18, 2021, 09:10:22 am »

I had troubles like that and I did this....I shut down the Raspi, I unplugged the USB, and I restarted the Raspi plugged in the USB and started MC 27...then I changed the DSP Studio to no output format and if I remember I shut down MC and restarted.

Not sure if all of that was needed but ti worked. I should point out that before I fiddled with the USB/DAC choices, everything worked fine. I think MC and/or Raspi is doing something naughty.

hillcreative · « **Reply #46 on:** April 18, 2021, 09:28:41 am »

Quote from: Dennis in FL on April 18, 2021, 09:10:22 am

I had troubles like that and I did this....I shut down the Raspi, I unplugged the USB, and I restarted the Raspi plugged in the USB and started MC 27...then I changed the DSP Studio to no output format and if I remember I shut down MC and restarted.

Not sure if all of that was needed but ti worked. I should point out that before I fiddled with the USB/DAC choices, everything worked fine. I think MC and/or Raspi is doing something naughty.

Can't repeat that behavior. MC insists that I use default ALSA. When I select hardware usb DAC. Outout Format is reselcted and resampling at 48

Dennis in FL · « **Reply #47 on:** April 18, 2021, 02:17:16 pm »

Sounds like your DAC is forcing it.

hillcreative · « **Reply #48 on:** April 20, 2021, 12:57:52 pm »

Quote from: Dennis in FL on April 18, 2021, 02:17:16 pm

Sounds like your DAC is forcing it.

If that were possible I would have it force everything to 88.2Khz

hillcreative · « **Reply #49 on:** April 21, 2021, 09:03:35 am »

I think the issue is that my USB device (Yellotek PUC2) is Linux class compliant but not necessarily compatible with Linux. Essentially it means that some basic features will work but expanded capabilities available in Mac and Windows just aren't there. I'm stuck at 48Khz until this changes.

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Author Topic: Output device for USB DAC (Read 9228 times)

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