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[stewart_pk]

Unless I'm mistaken Loudness increases bass as volume is decreased and also to a lessor extent some treble too.
I suggest that Loudness could be enahanced to just increase bass and not treble or something similar.
So there could be two options such as:

Loudness (Ticked / Unticked)
Don't Loudness Treble (Ticked / Unticked)

OR

Loudness Bass (Ticked / Unticked)
Loudness Treble (Ticked / Unticked)

[Dawgincontrol]

You could just build a custom equalizer component in the DSP studio.

[stewart_pk]

You could just build a custom equalizer component in the DSP studio.

That changes as the volume changes as does Loudness?

[Dawgincontrol]

Not sure what you're asking.

Volume affects everything in relation.

[mattkhan]

He means the magnitude of the filter should vary with volume

[stewart_pk]

He means the magnitude of the filter should vary with volume

Yes, I'm surprised this has to be explained.
Loudneess is Dynamic EQ and it changes with volume.
At the reference point which is 100 or 0dB out of the box means no EQ is applied and with attenuation less than the reference point then EQ is applied.

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=76608.0
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Volume#Reference_Level_Calibration

[Hendrik]

Loudness is meant to work on the full signal, why would you want to separate it?
It greatly enhances a suggestion to also provide the motivation/reasoning behind it

[Wheaten]

Not sure if the topic originator is actual meaning loudness?.

Loudness is introduced to compensate for low and high frequencies, on low volumes where the human hearing is not sensitive enough, as the human hearing is more sensitive in the 300H to 6KHz range. Loudness will amplify outside this range, so from a human exception the sound is more balanced (or equally amplified)

So I don't understand why you would introduce loudness for bass or treble? Loudness is for the full spectrum, bass for the low and treble for the high frequency amplification.

 

[stewart_pk]

Loudness is meant to work on the full signal, why would you want to separate it?
It greatly enhances a suggestion to also provide the motivation/reasoning behind it

Well the world is our oyster the way I see it.
For example, many audio enthusiasts only want to apply room correction to low frequencies so I see this along the same line.
Aren't you just a little curious to hear what it would sound like?

[stewart_pk]

Not sure if the topic originator is actual meaning loudness?.

Loudness is introduced to compensate for low and high frequencies, on low volumes where the human hearing is not sensitive enough, as the human hearing is more sensitive in the 300H to 6KHz range. Loudness will amplify outside this range, so from a human exception the sound is more balanced (or equally amplified)

So I don't understand why you would introduce loudness for bass or treble? Loudness is for the full spectrum, bass for the low and treble for the high frequency amplification.

I'm referring to the Loudness funtionality with JRiver of which I've provided links for.
For better or worse (subjective) it will surely sound different.
I would defintely apply bass Loundess and possibly NOT apply treble Loudness.

[Hendrik]

Well the world is our oyster the way I see it.
For example, many audio enthusiasts only want to apply room correction to low frequencies so I see this along the same line.
Aren't you just a little curious to hear what it would sound like?

Seems a bit far fetched to do all this work for a bit of curiousity.

[stewart_pk]

Seems a bit far fetched to do all this work for a bit of curiousity.

Applying EQ to higher frequencies can have negative results because of unpredictable room interactions.
Not an issue with headphones as room interactions don't apply.

With JRiver applying EQ via Loudness to higher frequencies there is no consideration of the fact that speakers on and off axis response can vary wildly.
Not so much an issue with bass frequencies as they are far more omni-directional.

There's a reason why room correction software does not work or can be made to not work on higher frequencies.
Take Dirac Live (which JRiver supports via VST) for example the basic version only works to 500Hz (the most important) and the full frequency version can be bandwidth limited with the use of curtains.
Even if one chooses to use Dirac Live full range (like I do) it comes with the benefit that it relies on measurements from multiple positions around the room to make smart decisions about what should and should not be equalized.

Unless I'm mistaken the Fletcher-Munsen curves were based on listeners listening to headphones and not speakers.

[newsposter]

there are quite a few one-button "loudness" vst plugins.  Here's one

http://wokwave.com/old-plugins/html/wok_loudness_free_vst_plugin.html

[stewart_pk]

there are quite a few one-button "loudness" vst plugins.  Here's one

http://wokwave.com/old-plugins/html/wok_loudness_free_vst_plugin.html

Thanks but I don't think this is relevant to this thread.
"The level of high and low frequencies is increased at low listening levels".

[ferday]

Applying EQ to higher frequencies can have negative results because of unpredictable room interactions.
Not an issue with headphones as room interactions don't apply.

very true, but the traditional intention of 'loudness' was to increase frequencies outside our peak hearing at lower listening levels so we could hear detail without turning it up

and the fletcher munson curves are not headphone specific; however they were developed using nearfield speakers to minimise room effects, since those are obviously much more difficult to quantify

[stewart_pk]

There are potential issues with equalizing high frequencies when using speakers.
There are not many opportunities to improve audio with a product as mature as JRiver but I think this has the potential to be one of them and should be taken seriously for implementation.

[Matt]

I'm working on adding this today to MC28:
NEW: Added the option to loudness to be full spectrum (default), bass only, or treble only.

Thanks for the suggestion.

[stewart_pk]

I'm working on adding this today to MC28:
NEW: Added the option to loudness to be full spectrum (default), bass only, or treble only.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Thank you SO SO much!

[drmimosa]

Thank you for developing this, I'll use it for sure.

At low volumes, in my room with my speakers, I miss bass more than I miss treble, so the high frequency boost of the loudness feature always sounded a little 'hot' to me. Just my 2¢ subjective take, but I'm excited to use it in MC28.

[thomaspf]

This is a great feature to have 👍

Weiss is adding a loudness corrected volume control into their high end DA501/DA502 dacs. Getting this for any device connected to JRiver is a nice touch. The noise level of latest generation of dacs and preamps/headphone amps has gotten so low that a relay based volume control to prevent noise from creeping in is overkill and we can harness the benefits of doing more sophisticated volume control in the digital domain. Ideally there is an easy setting to tell JRiver what 90db is so it can be adjusted to a specific playback chain.


Over the years there have been quite a few correction to the original Fletcher-Munson work. I am not sure this is the latest but is has an overview...

http://www.nedo.go.jp/itd/grant-e/report/00pdf/is-01e.pdf


Cheers

   Thomas

[Hendrik]

Ideally there is an easy setting to tell JRiver what 90db is so it can be adjusted to a specific playback chain.

Loudness has been supported in MC for several years now. To make use of it, you should be using "Internal Volume" and there is a "reference level" setting that lets you specify which volume level corresponds to the standardized 83dB.

[thomaspf]

 ? Ouch

that completely escaped my attention. This was added in MC18. I wonder is this following the ISO equal loudness contours?

Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

[stewart_pk]

This is the best thread I've come across for getting Loudness working the best with Volume Leveling and seemingly the best overall way to use it.
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=83601.0

Use the JRiver calibration to calibrate to the target of 83dB at -20dBF with Loudness, Volume Leveling, Adaptive Volume OFF and pretty much anything else OFF.
Volume Leveling has a target of -23LUFS or 80dB so add a PEQ of +3db to bring the volume up to the calibration target above.

[stewart_pk]

I just tried this in version 28 and it seems to be working well.
I notice that it is a per zone setting that seems to only be applied on the start of next playback.
I'm really happy so thank you very much JRiver!