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[budgie]

Hello wonder if anybody could help me please I just wondered why it is when I convert SACD ISO files The original ISO files  have a bit rate ranging from 7100 to 7300  but when they are converted over to separate dsd  files they all only have the same bit rate of 5644?

Many thanks


Budgie

[Awesome Donkey]

How are you converting them? Because if you're using Media Center to convert them they're going through a PCM stage in the middle, so it's going DSD (SACD ISO) to PCM back to DSD (DSF/DFF files) which is a lossy conversion. This would explain the change in bitrate (though with lossless and DSD files, bitrate likely doesn't matter like it does with lossy files like MP3s).

I would recommend extracting DSF files from a SACD ISO using ISO2DSD with sacd_extract instead of using Media Center to do it. ISO2DSD (with sacd_extract being used) extracts the data from the SACD ISO and packages it as a DSF file without doing any sort of conversion.

https://sonore.us/iso2dsd.html
https://github.com/EuFlo/sacd-ripper

[budgie]

Cheers for the info yes I am using media centre I have tried sonore before but cant get it to work with my Imac as nothing happens i have just tried a trial version of  trax sacd converter which works great but i dont know if its lossless or going to pcm like media centre does anybody know if this is the case i have attached the settings preview below if not are there any other programs that do a true lossless conversion i dont mind paying for it either if it does batch conversions

Thanks

[MikeyFresh]

Cheers for the info yes I am using media centre I have tried sonore before but cant get it to work with my Imac as nothing happens i have just tried a trial version of  trax sacd converter which works great but i dont know if its lossless or going to pcm like media centre does anybody know if this is the case i have attached the settings preview below if not are there any other programs that do a true lossless conversion i dont mind paying for it either if it does batch conversions

Thanks

ISO2DSD has worked well on Mac computers for many years now, but your description of what happens and what troubleshooting steps you have taken are inadequate for anyone to provide you with much help there.

Does your ISO2DSD folder contain the sacd_extract file? If not that is why nothing happens.

[budgie]

Hi so I right click on file  iso_gui.jar and Sonore opens I then select a folder with a valid iso file in it on my Mac hard drive through file input  I then try to execute with all the output modes and channel modes with and without convert DST to DSD ticked but nothing ever happens whatever option i choose, java is also open and running version  1.0 (1.8.0_321) the only thing i notice is it says Sonore ISO2DSD at the top and not SACD extract as in the screenshot,  maybe this is because it is not in the right folder as you mention so how would i access that please also advise what the correct settings would be
Thanks

[blgentry]

so it's going DSD (SACD ISO) to PCM back to DSD (DSF/DFF files) which is a lossy conversion. This would explain the change in bitrate (though with lossless and DSD files, bitrate likely doesn't matter like it does with lossy files like MP3s).

The bitrate is the information rate in the file.  Meaning the amount of complexity or content or "information" that it represents.  If it goes down, information is lost.  Whether or not this "matters" is up for debate I suppose.  For me, in today's world of cheap storage, I want no lossy conversions of anything.  "Keep all the bits" is my motto for digital media.

Brian.

[blgentry]

For me the real question for the OP is simple:  What are you trying to do by splitting your ISOs into individual tracks?  MC plays individual songs on ISOs directly, so there's no gain there.  Are you trying to use some other player that does not support ISOs? 

Brian.

[budgie]

Hi yes I am trying to split single iso files into separate tracks I use Audirvana On my imac  which does support them with my Cambridge Audio V2 Dac  however Audirvana is very glitchy and often crashes when playing them, when I split them into separate Dsf files, Audirvana plays them a lot better, splitting them also gives me the option to tag them as well

[Awesome Donkey]

Unfortunately the only reliable way of splitting a SACD ISO is using sacd_extract either from the terminal/command line or using a frontend like ISO2DSD. Getting that working or if you have access to a Windows PC doing it there would be highly recommended, as you can't really use Media Center (or any other media player as far as I know) to extract DSF/DFF files from a SACD ISO without doing any sort of conversion.

The bitrate is the information rate in the file.  Meaning the amount of complexity or content or "information" that it represents.  If it goes down, information is lost.  Whether or not this "matters" is up for debate I suppose.  For me, in today's world of cheap storage, I want no lossy conversions of anything.  "Keep all the bits" is my motto for digital media.

Indeed, agreed 100%. I meant that bitrate with lossless files shouldn't be used to indicate quality like it does with lossy files, e.g. 192kbps MP3s. That said, it actually does indicate quality in this case, because of the PCM conversion happening causing an loss of audio data, like you said.

[bob]

On Mac (and anything that runs java) you can use setmind/SACDEXtractGUI on github.
That uses sacd_extract with a nice frontend.

If I plan on using the individual tracks for anything I rip them separately using that.
Mostly though I rip to sacd iso format.

[Awesome Donkey]

Yep, that'll work too. And if that frontend doesn't work on your system, my guess is something is wrong with your Java runtime.

[budgie]

On Mac (and anything that runs java) you can use setmind/SACDEXtractGUI on github.
That uses sacd_extract with a nice frontend.

If I plan on using the individual tracks for anything I rip them separately using that.
Mostly though I rip to sacd iso format.

Thanks can you please explain how to run setmind/SACDEXtractGUI on github I am not savvy with it so would need  detailed instructions for me to do it properly alternatively it has been suggested that I use Windows to do it I have got a old PC I haven’t used for ages so maybe I could use that if it would be much easier to do it ?

Thanks

[bob]

Thanks can you please explain how to run setmind/SACDEXtractGUI on github I am not savvy with it so would need  detailed instructions for me to do it properly alternatively it has been suggested that I use Windows to do it I have got a old PC I haven’t used for ages so maybe I could use that if it would be much easier to do it ?

Thanks

That's only from ripping from a supported device. It will not convert an existing SACD iso to individual tracks.

[MikeyFresh]

Hi so I right click on file  iso_gui.jar and Sonore opens I then select a folder with a valid iso file in it on my Mac hard drive through file input  I then try to execute with all the output modes and channel modes with and without convert DST to DSD ticked but nothing ever happens whatever option i choose, java is also open and running version  1.0 (1.8.0_321) the only thing i notice is it says Sonore ISO2DSD at the top and not SACD extract as in the screenshot,  maybe this is because it is not in the right folder as you mention so how would i access that please also advise what the correct settings would be
Thanks

You missed my question above, does your ISO2DSD folder contain the sacd_extract file, or does it not?

[MikeyFresh]

That's only from ripping from a supported device. It will not convert an existing SACD iso to individual tracks.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something stated above, but both ISO2DSD, and the newer SACDExtractGUI will surely extract DSF tracks from an existing ISO.

However each is just a Java applet front end tool, they don't work without the sacd_extract executable. I'm pretty sure that is the problem the OP is having, he has the GUI but not the actual sacd_extract application.

[bob]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something stated above, but both ISO2DSD, and the newer SACDExtractGUI will surely extract DSF tracks from an existing ISO.

However each is just a Java applet front end tool, they don't work without the sacd_extract executable. I'm pretty sure that is the problem the OP is having, he has the GUI but not the actual sacd_extract application.

I've never used SACDExtractGUI that way but perhaps someone else has.
Of course you are right, they all require sacd_extract.
https://github.com/setmind/sacd-ripper

[MikeyFresh]

I've never used SACDExtractGUI that way but perhaps someone else has.
Of course you are right, they all require sacd_extract.
https://github.com/setmind/sacd-ripper

Just a single radio button click to put SACDExtractGUI in file mode (as opposed to Server mode), then Browse to find your ISO, and extract DSF from it.

[bob]

Just a single radio button click to put SACDExtractGUI in file mode (as opposed to Server mode), then Browse to find your ISO, and extract DSF from it.

Nice, thanks!

[blgentry]

I'm kinda confused.  You're asking about doing something that MC doesn't really do in order to play files on Audirvana.  I would understand if you wanted to use a different player than MC because you like it better.

But I'm guessing you like MC, or you wouldn't be here.  ...and MC plays all kinds of DSD, including individual tracks inside an SACD ISO so... What are you trying to do?  MC will play your files.  Is there something special about the way that Audirvana plays DSD as compared to MC?

Brian.

[bob]

I'm kinda confused.  You're asking about doing something that MC doesn't really do in order to play files on Audirvana.  I would understand if you wanted to use a different player than MC because you like it better.

But I'm guessing you like MC, or you wouldn't be here.  ...and MC plays all kinds of DSD, including individual tracks inside an SACD ISO so... What are you trying to do?  MC will play your files.  Is there something special about the way that Audirvana plays DSD as compared to MC?

Brian.

That's a good question because with the added option of outputting DSF in DLNA the only use case I had for individual tracks, sending individual tracks to a Oppo renderer, is gone.

[budgie]

You missed my question above, does your ISO2DSD folder contain the sacd_extract file, or does it not?

Hi I have tried as Sonor asks i Create a new folder called iso2dsd i then Download iso2dsd_gui.jar.zip and unzip its content this creates just a Java JR file on its own which I then put in the iso2dsd folder I then download the sacd extract zip but do I need to put the sacd extract unix file only in the folder as there are 4 other files in there in all ?

[budgie]

I'm kinda confused.  You're asking about doing something that MC doesn't really do in order to play files on Audirvana.  I would understand if you wanted to use a different player than MC because you like it better.

But I'm guessing you like MC, or you wouldn't be here.  ...and MC plays all kinds of DSD, including individual tracks inside an SACD ISO so... What are you trying to do?  MC will play your files.  Is there something special about the way that Audirvana plays DSD as compared to MC?

Brian.

Hi I am using mc as it is literally the only program that I could find which can rip Dsd files from all the different file formats that I get my music on and I thought It could do it properly
I did see that it can play all my  music directly through My Cambridge  V2 Dac Audirvāna  does sound superior to me to any of the programs that I  have  tried including Roon  but I am willing to give mc a try if it’s not to complex to set up

[MikeyFresh]

Hi I have tried as Sonor asks i Create a new folder called iso2dsd i then Download iso2dsd_gui.jar.zip and unzip its content this creates just a Java JR file on its own which I then put in the iso2dsd folder I then download the sacd extract zip but do I need to put the sacd extract unix file only in the folder as there are 4 other files in there in all ?

You of course do need to unzip it, and yes put it in the ISO2DSD folder where the .jar file also resides.

On macOS, and Linux (but not Windows), you also need to make it executable before you can use it.

Open Utilities -> Terminal and type chmod +x followed by a single space. Then drag/drop the sacd_extract file directly onto the Terminal window, the file path will automatically populate. Press Enter, and that's all, close Terminal, and you can now use ISO2DSD.

[budgie]

You of course do need to unzip it, and yes put it in the ISO2DSd folder where the .jar file also resides.

On macOS, and Linux (but not Windows), you also need to make it executable before you can use it.

Open Utilities -> Terminal and type chmod +x followed by a single space. Then drag/drop the sacd_extract file directly onto the Terminal window, the file path will automatically populate. Press Enter, and that's all, close Terminal, and you can now use ISO2DSD.

Thanks Mikey so the whole SACD file extracted from the zip needs to go into the folder ?
Also does the Sonor Java program need to be open or closed before I execute the command?

[MikeyFresh]

Thanks Mikey so the whole SACD file extracted from the zip needs to go into the folder ?
Also does the Sonor Java program need to be open or closed before I execute the command?

If you meant the Terminal command to make sacd_extract executable that I described, it does not matter whether you have the GUI open or not.

Please use the correct names for things otherwise I simply don't understand what you are saying. If you meant the sacd_extract file, yes, put the unzipped file into the folder where the .jar file resides. Make it executable as described.

[budgie]

Thanks Mikey finally got it working much appreciated so I ripped a file which came out at 5644 again when the single iso shows a bit rate of 7300, in mc that also plays at 5644 though so was it really just that bitrate all along and mc reads the iso Incorrectly ?


Thanks

[MikeyFresh]

Thanks Mikey finally got it working much appreciated so I ripped a file which came out at 5644 again when the single iso shows a bit rate of 7300, in mc that also plays at 5644 though so was it really just that bitrate all along and mc reads the iso Incorrectly ?


Thanks

I'll leave one for others here to answer as I'm not sure I understand what you are saying, however all SACDs have a sample rate of 2.822mHz.

When you play an ISO you are essentially playing the SACD, so that should be at a 2.822mHz sample rate unless you have MC configured to upsample it.

I really have no idea what you are referring to with "bitrate" and 7300, though at least interesting and perhaps a clue in your reference to 5644, as that is exactly double the SACD sample rate.

Glad you were able to get ISO2DSD working.

[budgie]

No problem Mikey I have attached a screenshot of the artist veiw in the mc to try to explain, so the SACD songs  listed in the library that have bit rates of around 7000 are all the tracks from a single iso file, the tracks next to them all with a bit rate of 5644 are all single DSD files that have just been ripped in Sonore ISO2DSD they would also only be 5644 if  they were converted in JR River
I trust this now makes sense if anybody could please explain why they are different

Thanks

Budgie

[bob]

Bitrates aren't important on lossless files.
Your files have 2 channels so the "bitrate" is 2x the sample rate.

No idea what it mean for the iso. The multichannel ones are compressed though so that would show a different "bitrate"

[MikeyFresh]

Bitrates aren't important on lossless files.
Your files have 2 channels so the "bitrate" is 2x the sample rate.

No idea what it mean for the iso. The multichannel ones are compressed though so that would show a different "bitrate"

Ah, I forgot that he was referring to MCH files, which on an SACD (or ISO) are going to be losslessly compressed with DST, where the stereo files are not compressed.

Additionally, the way I have my MC View setup, it doesn't show the bitrate, only the sample rate, so that too had me confused.

[Awesome Donkey]

Bitrates aren't important on lossless files.

This, bitrate doesn't matter with lossless and DSD files like it would with lossy files like MP3s. What does matter in the case of DSD is if the single files were extracted without doing any sort of conversion (which would have to go through PCM which is a lossy conversion), but it looks like you've figured that part out with sacd_extract, thus other than compressed multichannel having a different "bitrate", the bitrate doesn't matter. If it was a lossy 192kbps or 320kbps MP3 then bitrate would actually matter, as it is an indication of quality.

Bitrate with lossless files can sometimes appear low (e.g. solo piano pieces) or it can even appear to change with how much compression is used but unlike lossy files bitrate with lossless files isn't an indication of quality, and that's why it doesn't matter.

[blgentry]

Strangely on the handful of SACD ISOs I have, there is no bitrate listed for the tracks at all.  I did analyze audio on one of them (all tracks) and still ended up with nothing in the bitrate field at all.  It is blank.

Brian.

[Awesome Donkey]

You're right. And if I add [Bitrate] to my display play mode field all DSD tracks appear with a 5644 bitrate while playing. With that in mind and in my opinion, you can probably ignore bitrate for DSD files as long as they were correctly extracted from a SACD ISO with no conversions.

[budgie]

This, bitrate doesn't matter with lossless and DSD files like it would with lossy files like MP3s. What does matter in the case of DSD is if the single files were extracted without doing any sort of conversion (which would have to go through PCM which is a lossy conversion), but it looks like you've figured that part out with sacd_extract, thus other than compressed multichannel having a different "bitrate", the bitrate doesn't matter. If it was a lossy 192kbps or 320kbps MP3 then bitrate would actually matter, as it is an indication of quality.

Bitrate with lossless files can sometimes appear low (e.g. solo piano pieces) or it can even appear to change with how much compression is used but unlike lossy files bitrate with lossless files isn't an indication of quality, and that's why it doesn't matter.

Thanks very much for your explanation much appreciated I always thought the higher the bit rate the better the sound in lossless music which I now realise is wrong  I really love my music and I have a lot of lossless files all different formats Flac, M4A  Ape, wavpack etc do all the other file formats also have a pcm stage when converting in Mc or does this only happen with dsd files? also how is it that only Sonore can convert iso files properly please

Many thanks

[bob]

Thanks very much for your explanation much appreciated I always thought the higher the bit rate the better the sound in lossless music which I now realise is wrong  I really love my music and I have a lot of lossless files all different formats Flac, M4A  Ape, wavpack etc do all the other file formats also have a pcm stage when converting in Mc or does this only happen with dsd files? also how is it that only Sonore can convert iso files properly please

Many thanks

Everything else you mentioned IS PCM.
Only DSD is not.

[MikeyFresh]

also how is it that only Sonore can convert iso files properly please

Many thanks

Thats incorrect, as stated above, Sonore's Java-based front-end GUI is just a tool that allows one to avoid using the command line interface (CLI), and the same is true of SACDExtractGUI, they are just graphical user interfaces (GUI) that are easier to use in a point and click fashion so that you can avoid the CLI.

The actual ripping and extraction program is sacd_extract, and it is not commercial software (note where you downloaded it).

Be happy you have either ISO2DSD, or SACDExtractGUI in conjunction with sacd_extract as superb freeware, and don't bother spending $35 on TraX, it isn't any better at ripping SACD or extracting DSF from an ISO.