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Author Topic: Windows 11: HDR Not Supported  (Read 3821 times)

elprice7345

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Windows 11: HDR Not Supported
« on: March 05, 2023, 06:40:46 pm »

I originally posted a similar question here: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,128171.msg890485.html

My HTPC is connected to this Sony receiver (STR-DN1080): https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/audio-components-receivers-amplifiers/str-dn1080/specifications

The receiver is connected to this Sony TV (XBR75X900E): https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/televisions-projectors-lcd-tvs-android-/xbr-75x900e/specifications

Both my receiver and my TV say they are capable of playing HDR, but when I open Windows 11 display settings, they say:
HDR Video Streaming = Not supported
Use HDR = Not supported

Can anyone help me play HDR content?
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elprice7345

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Re: Windows 11: HDR Not Supported
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2023, 03:09:24 am »

Sorry, this post probably belongs in the HTPC section of this forum. Can a mod please move it?

After doing more research, it looks like the integrated Intel UHD Graphics 600 that came with the GB-BLCE-4105 doesn't support HDR.

I found @jmone's "Review : Intel NUC NUC12WSKi5 & MC as an UHD HTPC" https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,134761.0.html

My requirements seem to map very closely to @jmone's, so it looks like it's time for an upgrade!

@jmone - can you post links to the actual HW you purchased?
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Hendrik

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Re: Windows 11: HDR Not Supported
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2023, 03:31:05 am »

Thats a weird limitation that it does not support HDR, its not even that old. But you are right, on some digging I can confirm it does not seem to support it.
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jmone

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Re: Windows 11: HDR Not Supported
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2023, 04:03:25 am »

I can post links but.... I'm in Australia and purchased from a local supplier (and I think you are in the USA?).
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jmone

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Re: Windows 11: HDR Not Supported
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2023, 04:06:08 am »

....and I've not dug into it any further (at this stage) but I seem to have an issue bitstreaming (reported by another user) with the NUC12WSKi5 & MC
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B4Unyu

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Re: Windows 11: HDR Not Supported
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2023, 08:19:14 am »

if HDR isn't selectable in Windows 11 for an HDR-capable TV, you should be able to correct that through a change in Sony's menu settings.

I use a cheap 4k HDR TV as a monitor and Windows will not "see" it as hdr capable unless the selection for the HDMI signal format (input mode) for the connection is set to Standard. Compatible or Auto results in Win11 not recognizing the TV as HDR.

(i don't know if having that receiver in between will change anything...)
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eve

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Re: Windows 11: HDR Not Supported
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2023, 08:52:11 am »

if HDR isn't selectable in Windows 11 for an HDR-capable TV, you should be able to correct that through a change in Sony's menu settings.

I use a cheap 4k HDR TV as a monitor and Windows will not "see" it as hdr capable unless the selection for the HDMI signal format (input mode) for the connection is set to Standard. Compatible or Auto results in Win11 not recognizing the TV as HDR.

(i don't know if having that receiver in between will change anything...)

While the hardware itself may not support it, this is actually good advice. On LG Displays it's called HDMI Deep Color. It's exceedingly misleading since it also is required to get higher refresh rates at 4K (even if you ARENT using HDR) . I don't really understand why it isn't on by default but you do indeed need to enable it (I believe on a per port basis)

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jmone

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Re: Windows 11: HDR Not Supported
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2023, 05:00:19 pm »

....and I've not dug into it any further (at this stage) but I seem to have an issue bitstreaming (reported by another user) with the NUC12WSKi5 & MC

That is now fixed - bitstreaming is working on this unit
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elprice7345

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Re: Windows 11: HDR Not Supported
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2023, 11:56:41 pm »

I have a few more questions:

Q1: My media is served from an aging desktop PC. To get better results, is it more important to have a beefier server or beefier renderer?

My crude understanding of the process: the renderer reads and transfer the bits from the server and then renders those bits into the video we're watching. If I'm correct, it seems like the renderer does most of the work?

I need to update/replace my server, but I'd rather sort the HTPC issue first.

My Server JRMark = 3400
MY Current HTPC JRMark = 1880

Q2: I believe I found barebones versions of the NUC @jmone recommended at:
Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0BCWDST4J?psc=1
Newegg: https://www.newegg.com/intel-rnuc12wski50001-nuc-12-pro/p/N82E16856102367

Are these the correct items?

Q3: Can I (or should I) repurpose the the SSD and memory from my old rig in the new rig? Will they work and is it a good idea? Current parts:
ē   2x8GB Single Rank ($65): https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01BIWMWVS?th=1
ē   Western Digital 250GB WD Blue M.2 2280 ($45): https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07YFF8879/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_3?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

TIA for all of your help!
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jmone

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Re: Windows 11: HDR Not Supported
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2023, 12:36:34 am »

If you are thinking about a Media Network you have a couple of components:
- MC Server:  This is where you do your admin from, rip content, etc.  The key bit is that the media all be available as a "Share" on the network and imported into the library using this path (eg \\MyMedia\ NOT D:).  This will ensure that your MC Server is only acting as a file share and it will do no rendering (and hence it really can be a very modest PC)
- MC Renderers / Clients / HTPC etc:  These all load the library (database) from the MC Server and when you "play" an item, it will play the file from over the network using the UNC that you used when importing the media.  These devices need decent rendering capabilities but can have very modest storage as they don't hold any actual content.  Just a good enough CPU, GPU, Memory etc to get smooth playback.  eg the NUC

This is really old - https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Home_Networking_Examples but has pics etc

There are a couple of exceptions:
- My main use "Study" PC is the one I have MC running as the server and also as a MC client.  It has a very beefy GPU (4090) as I also do video editing on this PC etc as well as all the MC stuff.  I also watch content on the MC Client.  The other reason you may want a solid GPU on your MC Server PC is if the server needs to transcode video for devices that either don't have direct access to the file share or can not play the native formats.

About your NUC Build.  You should be able to reuse both the M2 and 16GB Memory (that's what I did).  On the links, the Amazon one looks like it is the "tall" version that can take both M2 and a "slim" sata drives.  The newegg looks like the "short" version that only takes M2 drives (this is the one I got).   
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elprice7345

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Re: Windows 11: HDR Not Supported
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2023, 12:51:19 am »

Thanks @jmone for the quick response and your help and knowledge!

I'll post more details here as I progress.
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eve

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Re: Windows 11: HDR Not Supported
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2023, 06:23:04 am »

If you are thinking about a Media Network you have a couple of components:
- MC Server:  This is where you do your admin from, rip content, etc.  The key bit is that the media all be available as a "Share" on the network and imported into the library using this path (eg \\MyMedia\ NOT D:).  This will ensure that your MC Server is only acting as a file share and it will do no rendering (and hence it really can be a very modest PC)
- MC Renderers / Clients / HTPC etc:  These all load the library (database) from the MC Server and when you "play" an item, it will play the file from over the network using the UNC that you used when importing the media.  These devices need decent rendering capabilities but can have very modest storage as they don't hold any actual content.  Just a good enough CPU, GPU, Memory etc to get smooth playback.  eg the NUC

This is really old - https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Home_Networking_Examples but has pics etc

There are a couple of exceptions:
- My main use "Study" PC is the one I have MC running as the server and also as a MC client.  It has a very beefy GPU (4090) as I also do video editing on this PC etc as well as all the MC stuff.  I also watch content on the MC Client.  The other reason you may want a solid GPU on your MC Server PC is if the server needs to transcode video for devices that either don't have direct access to the file share or can not play the native formats.

About your NUC Build.  You should be able to reuse both the M2 and 16GB Memory (that's what I did).  On the links, the Amazon one looks like it is the "tall" version that can take both M2 and a "slim" sata drives.  The newegg looks like the "short" version that only takes M2 drives (this is the one I got).

This is the way :)

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elprice7345

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Re: Windows 11: HDR Not Supported
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2023, 03:17:58 pm »

Another question: What won't this HTPC do that a beefier rig would do?

I'm a little cautious because my current rig doesn't do HDR and I purchased it only 2 years ago.

I'd like to make sure I'm good for at least a couple of years.
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jmone

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Re: Windows 11: HDR Not Supported
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2023, 06:54:28 pm »

It is based around an iGPU vs discreate GPU

Pros:
- Cheaper
- Less Power draw
- Quieter
- Does most things (including AV1 decoding)
- All in one

Cons:
- Not powerful enough to do the higher quality JRVR settings
- Not recommended for 8K etc

If you have a look at that review, you can see where the iGPU starts to run out of grunt, but it is surprisingly capable. 

The next step up from a NUC will be a SFF build with a discrete GPU but that will cost twice as much.  If you are after something that can live for a long time, a SFF build with a (nvidia) GPU will serve you well for years as you can just upgrade the GPU as/when needed (the Memory and CPU really don't matter).  I did this for years with a Shuttle but eventually ran into issue with Win11 minimum requirements and PSU constraints.... so that is the HTPC that my NUC has replaced as it is "good enough" to a 60" OLED.  For my 125" PJ HTPC I'm still using a SFF build that I just replaced it's trusty 1660ti with a 3060 to get AV1 decoding and a bit more grunt.  I like both setups.
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elprice7345

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Re: Windows 11: HDR Not Supported
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2023, 12:18:34 am »

Thanks again @jmone!

I did some research and it looks like a SFF HTPC would run $1500 or so. 3x the cost for something I may not use/need.

It seems like the smarter decision for me is to upgrade to the NUC 12 box you reviewed and try my luck. It's much faster (GPU is 8x faster and the CPU is 6x faster) and more capable (HDR & AV1 decoding) than my current rig.

Q1: What are your thoughts on eGPUs? it seems like adding an eGPU down the road could be an option, but by that time, it still might be cheaper/smarter to replace the NUC 12 with the NUC 18 or 20! Who knows what the future brings! ;)

Q2: I'm not sure what you call the screen that comes up when you press Ctrl+J while watching a video, but at the bottom of that screen are rendering and performance numbers. I assume the goal is to have 0 dropped and repeated frames? I also assume lower performance numbers are better? Am I correct? I've noticed when playing videos on my current rig, I see lots of dropped and repeated frames.
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jmone

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Re: Windows 11: HDR Not Supported
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2023, 03:34:53 am »

Yeah - you don't want dropped or repeated frames but they can come from a few things, most commonly:
- The rendering times are higher than the refresh rate
- You are playing a video that has a different frame rate to the refresh rate of your display (MC has a most excellent implementation of display rate changing to take care of that)
- Drift between the Audio and Video clock causing the odd single frame drop / repeat to bring the streams back in sync (MC has another excellent Video Clock that resamples the Audio to combat this but it only works when "decoding" and not "bitstreaming")

As you can see from the NUC review it is fine even on HDR/UHD/50fps/AV1 material with the more modest rendering settings and HDR passthrough and you can even crank up the settings for "normal" 23.976fps content.  The NUC should last for a good few years.  I guess you could add an eGPU enclosure via Thunderbolt but.... it will be cheaper to just replace or go SFF at that point. 
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eve

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Re: Windows 11: HDR Not Supported
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2023, 07:53:07 am »

Thanks again @jmone!

I did some research and it looks like a SFF HTPC would run $1500 or so. 3x the cost for something I may not use/need.

It seems like the smarter decision for me is to upgrade to the NUC 12 box you reviewed and try my luck. It's much faster (GPU is 8x faster and the CPU is 6x faster) and more capable (HDR & AV1 decoding) than my current rig.

Q1: What are your thoughts on eGPUs? it seems like adding an eGPU down the road could be an option, but by that time, it still might be cheaper/smarter to replace the NUC 12 with the NUC 18 or 20! Who knows what the future brings! ;)

Q2: I'm not sure what you call the screen that comes up when you press Ctrl+J while watching a video, but at the bottom of that screen are rendering and performance numbers. I assume the goal is to have 0 dropped and repeated frames? I also assume lower performance numbers are better? Am I correct? I've noticed when playing videos on my current rig, I see lots of dropped and repeated frames.

Be worried about 'increasing' dropped / repeated frames. When I start playback or 'go full screen' I've noticed I'll often drop a number of frames in the process, it does not increase from there except for if say, I resized the window or whatever. I don't really consider that the same to actually dropping frames during playback lol
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elprice7345

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Re: Windows 11: HDR Not Supported
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2023, 04:49:52 pm »

The memory in my current rig is: 2x8GB Single Rank (DDR4 2400): https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01BIWMWVS?th=1

The memory for the NUC12 is DDR4 3200.

Q1: Can I use my current RAM DDR4 2400 RAM in the NUC 12 DDR4 3200?

Q2: I assume I will get some performance advantage by using the faster 3400 RAM? New memory is only $39. Is it worth it?
https://www.newegg.com/crucial-16gb-260-pin-ddr4-so-dimm/p/N82E16820156259?Item=9SIAXHKFGG9964&Description=Dual%20Channel%20DDR4-3200%20SO-DIMM&cm_re=Dual_Channel%20DDR4-3200%20SO-DIMM-_-20-156-259-_-Product
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jmone

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Re: Windows 11: HDR Not Supported
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2023, 05:02:54 pm »

Mem speed is going to make no difference and your existing Mem should work just fine, though for $39 sure why not.
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elprice7345

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Re: Windows 11: HDR Not Supported
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2023, 12:35:51 am »

So, Iím up and running on the NUC 12 that @jmone recommended. My installation experience was very similar. I too had to supply the network drivers to get through the install process.

I didnít read his post carefully enough or I also would have seen his tip about the video drivers not installing! The Intel update process doesnít see the need to update the video drivers, so Windows installed the default driver and left me to figure it out.  >:( After some searching, Iíve installed the Intel Arc drivers (v31.0.101.4146). Which driver and what version are you using @jmone? After getting the proper video drivers installed, I now have working HDR! Yea!!

I get a JRMark of 6588 on the new machine vs. 1880 on the old one. My server has a JRMark score of 3678. So, now my renderer is faster than my server! @jmone, I noticed your JRMark score, on the same machine is higher than mine (6588 vs 6927). Is there a configuration I missed that would bring our scores more in line?

A few questions about configuration:

Q1: MC gives me the choice of audio drivers of Direct Sound or WASAPI. Which should I use? What are the pros and cons of each?

Q2: @jmone, was your conclusion to load the balance presets or the Quality preset? Did you tweak your JRVR configuration from the preset?

Q3: When I watch a 4k HDR video, dropped and repeated frames are minimal, but when I watch videos downloaded from my TiVo, it drops about 30 frames every second. Why is it doing this and how do I correct this behavior? Iíve attached MediaInfo files for both videos.
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jmone

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Re: Windows 11: HDR Not Supported
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2023, 04:27:20 am »

Nice!  To answer some of your questions
- Video Driver: I too just downloaded and installed the latest Intel Arc Driver
- JRMark: You will find the result will vary a fair each time you run it.  The minor difference between our setups could be the type of memory, nvme, of just because.  Mine is stock, with no performance tweaking
- Audio Driver:  Normally you would want WASAPI Exclusive.  This gives MC exclusive access to the sound hardware and bypasses the Windows Audio Mixer.  If you need (or want) other items to play audio at the same time as MC, then you want Direct Sound
- Profiles:  Have a look at this post for a starting point : https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,134761.msg933563.html#msg933563 .  I'm not trying to push it to the limit and this is working well enough.
- Dropped Frames:  You may need to post a screen shot with the JRVR Stats showing (Cntrl+J) but I suspect you don't have auto frame rate changing on (Tools --> Options --> Video --> Display Settings) as the first is a 23.976fps video and the second is 29.94fps
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Hendrik

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Re: Windows 11: HDR Not Supported
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2023, 04:36:55 am »

If you want your JRMark to be somewhat consistent, put your PC into the "high performance" power plan. Although I would not recommend to run that on daily basis.
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eve

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Re: Windows 11: HDR Not Supported
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2023, 10:04:05 am »

Sorry nerds, super OT but Arc got brought up.

Any word on how Intels dedicated cards perform with JRVR and MadVR?

So far, the 3060ti has been the soft spot for 'I want proper MadVR' at least for the last few years.
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elprice7345

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Re: Windows 11: HDR Not Supported
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2023, 01:48:23 am »

- Dropped Frames:  You may need to post a screen shot with the JRVR Stats showing (Cntrl+J) but I suspect you don't have auto frame rate changing on (Tools --> Options --> Video --> Display Settings) as the first is a 23.976fps video and the second is 29.94fps

A few more data points:

I do have have auto frame rate changing on.

The dropped frames problem goes away if I switch from the Balanced preset to the Performance preset. It gets even worse if I switch to the Quality preset.

I've attached a screen shot of the OSD while playing the video that's dropping frames.

Thanks again for your help!
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jmone

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Re: Windows 11: HDR Not Supported
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2023, 03:58:49 am »

That makes sense.  The higher the frame rate the less time each frame has to be rendered and if it can't do it in that time, then you drop frames.  Eg in your 59.94fps example, you only get 16.7ms per frame but it is taking just over 20ms to render it = dropped frames.  Note: your 23.976fps gets 41.7ms so that would not drop frames with the same settings.

I found that the NUC works fine with:
- Balanced (and just Quality) Preset for lower frame rates like 23.976 fps, but you need
- Performance Preset for higher frame rate like 50 or 59.94 fps

So the option is to either just use Performance or setup a profile based on FPS to switch between Balanced (/Quality) and Performance.  There are also some different overheads for files that also require deinterlacing etc so fine tuning may be required. 
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elprice7345

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Re: Windows 11: HDR Not Supported
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2023, 12:15:14 am »

That makes sense.  The higher the frame rate the less time each frame has to be rendered and if it can't do it in that time, then you drop frames.  Eg in your 59.94fps example, you only get 16.7ms per frame but it is taking just over 20ms to render it = dropped frames.  Note: your 23.976fps gets 41.7ms so that would not drop frames with the same settings.

I get your point that MC isn't rendering the video fast enough and therefore drops frames, but could you step me through your math?

After playing around more, I've found using the Performance preset works best for me. The video looks good and almost no dropped or repeated frames.

When would you want to use the Balanced and Quality presets (assuming you had a better graphics card)? When trying to upscale video? What are the use cases?

Another problem I've found: sometimes when I stop a video, my Sony TV (model and specs at the top of this thread) goes blank and the LED light at the bottom of the TV flashes red 8 times. At that point I have to unplug the TV and let it reboot then all works normally for a while.

This doesn't happen when using other sources, for example, TiVo, Xbox, Blu-ray player, etc.

I found a couple of web pages that discuss this issue as some kind of audio issue:
https://electrofixs.com/sony-tv-blinking-red-light-8-times/
https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00032065

Since it doesn't happen with other sources, It seems like there is some issue with Windows or MC. Does anyone have any troubleshooting ideas?

I have not tried the factory reset yet, because I thought I would ask here first (and I'd like to avoid redoing all of the settings).
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Re: Windows 11: HDR Not Supported
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2023, 12:54:21 am »

The maths is pretty straightforward.  The time it takes to render a frame needs to be (comfortably) less that "1/Frame Rate", eg:
- 60fps = 16.67ms
- 50fps = 20ms
- 24fps = 41ms

So if your JRVR settings take say 25ms then you are fine for 24fps material but nothing else.  But you have options apart from just dropping settings or getting a better GPU.... and that is to use Profiles in JRVR based on Frame Rate (see pic).  This way you can have one more demanding profile for traditional 24fps/23.976 "film" (eg Balanced) and a less demanding one for high framerate video like 60fps (eg Performance).  You can the tweak each profile independently to get the most out of the rendering time you have available but turning on/off features or their adjusting their levels.  Some of these settings can get "expensive" in rendering times (which you can see on the OSD) and do improve the quality of the displayed video, but if it all looks the same to you then don't bother!  They are only worth it if you see a difference.

I've a Sony TV that has been connected up to a couple of different HTPC's over the years and never seen the issue you describe, so sorry - I'm no help there.  Could it be a dodgy HDMI cable?
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