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Author Topic: Tuners and Topology  (Read 8874 times)

tzr916

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Tuners and Topology
« on: March 23, 2023, 03:53:52 pm »

I fully understand needing to play old WTV recordings in MC. But can someone explain why MC needs to record in WTV? For editing the recordings? Isn't TS format is just as easy to edit in video redo? For serving clients, we already do that too.
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JimH

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2023, 03:56:33 pm »

We had a WMC user ask for it.  He believes that the WMC community is committed to WTV.  He says it can contain metadata.

Here's the thread on WTV.
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mcq

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2023, 04:14:37 pm »

Wtv is a single file format which contains all the program metadata as well as the video and audio.
It is also easily edited by many editors especially VideoRedo which allows for program data to be edited at the same time.
It's also very rugged
It's easily interoperable with WMC without extra libraries or conversion which matters to WMC users who, if they migrate, will probably do so slowly, allowing new recordings in JRiver to be immediately playable in WMC.
WTV is not an 'old' format just because WMC is no longer supported by MS - there are large numbers of users still using WMC in W10 & W11 - see Green Button forum.
It's about WMC users who might migrate to JRiver - slowly - having a native inter-operational format.
I might say - why not if it achieves the above?
Users who prefer jtv or TS can continue to use that - it's not about removing anything, but making JRiver more attractive to a wider audience.
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tzr916

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2023, 04:55:25 pm »

Ya, I did the switch back in 2015... Attracting more WMC users is fine, just know the real life consequences of trying to run WMC along side of MC, such as inevitable tuner conflicts.
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JimH

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2023, 04:58:43 pm »

Can't you tell MC not to use certain tuners?  I don't know about WMC.
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tzr916

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2023, 05:11:32 pm »

Yes to both, but any overlap can and will cause issues.
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mcq

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2023, 05:22:39 pm »

I run 4 WMC machines with Quad tuners - that's up to (but normally not) 16 channels that can be simultaneously recording, 4 to each local machine - lots of redundancy.
I think your point is about the clash if you run WMC and JRiver on the same machine - yes point well noted.
I have some 3000 (5Tb) wtv files on 4 WMC machines and a standard file server which has no specific software (just a file server share- which is what we like for an FS).
All machines can see all recordings immediately they are finished because WMC uses a peer 'library' indexing db on each machine - there is no single point of failure if for instance the file server went off line.
Neither is there any special routine, just peer network shares which any instance of WMC, or anything else, can play directly.
I am still getting my head around JRiver's mechanisms and am looking for the Wiki on Library server as this is advocated, but it does look like a single point of failure - but I need to read further.
Also I need to do be able to navigate all this from the 10ft view (Theatre view) with remote not mouse/kboard/desktop. 
Also 10k photos and loads of audio - so library handling is very important - so her indoors says :)
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JimH

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2023, 05:25:21 pm »

I'll split this to a new thread.
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JimH

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2023, 05:28:15 pm »

Quoting myself from an earlier message...

If you have multiple machines, you can have all of them running as both clients and servers.  MC serves both functions quite well.

Normally, you would set up one machine as the server and the rest would be clients, but you can do whatever you want.
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JimH

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2023, 05:29:36 pm »

mcq, what tuners do you use?
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mcq

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2023, 05:33:10 pm »

Black Gold BGT 3602
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mcq

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2023, 05:39:12 pm »

Jim - Yes - I said I need to read up and experiment some more.
So if all the machines are clients & severs i.e. have tuners and record on their local FS, are you saying they can sync with each others indexes?
Presumably my main FS would need to run something as, if I read this right, JRiver can't simply read a remote network share in theatre view.

I guess I really don't understand why MC can't just see a network share, index it and play when clicked on.
I get the need to do something server-ish for wan connections but not really for LAN ones
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JimH

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2023, 06:01:44 pm »

Black Gold BGT 3602
3620?  Dual tuner?
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mcq

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2023, 06:03:40 pm »

BGT 3602 2xDVB-T2 and 2xDVB-S2

BGT 3602 is the BGT3600 with updated codec chip.
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JimH

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2023, 06:09:25 pm »

I'm only curious, but do you have a link to it?  Or to its specs?  I couldn't find one.
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mcq

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2023, 06:13:42 pm »

Out of business since last year - I bought up the last few - having known the MD for a few years and worked through the pain of going from T > T2 and S > S2 driver wise.
Black Gold regarded as one of the best then on the market
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JimH

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2023, 06:24:35 pm »

Too bad. Thanks.
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mcq

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2023, 06:26:06 pm »

Think there's several others about according to chaps on GreenButton forum
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Yaobing

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2023, 06:40:36 pm »

With a client-server setup, you are able to record on all computers, server and clients.  All you need to to make sure the shared drives are known to the server exactly the same way as it is on the client.  For example, if you record on a client on M:\ drive, you want to share that drive with the server and map the shared drive on the server as M:\ drive.  This way both the server and the client refer to the same recording by the same path and filename.   All other clients can access the same recording via the server, except the machine on which the show is actually located.  That client has the option of accessing the file locally.

If you do not set up a server, all computers act independently.  They can record on their own, and put recordings in their own folders.  All other computers can set up automatic import on all folders other computers use.  With this setup all computers have their own library (automatic import will pick up shows recorded by other computers).  Synchronization could be an issue.  For example if you edit a recording on one computer, the other computers may not know it has been edited.
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mcq

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2023, 06:53:25 pm »

Need to get my head round that (or ice pack).
Can you use UNC instead of drive letters - drive letters can move - as per pic below.
If you have a bog standard windows file server - can you add that into the mix without it having any JRiver software running?

It's just that all the other apps on my pc inc WMC can simply look at an Lan UNC and open the remote file without further ado, it's only MC which seems to need software on a FS which is normally something that server managers don't like.
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Yaobing

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2023, 08:56:03 pm »

Yes you can use UNC
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Yaobing Deng, JRiver Media Center

mcq

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2023, 07:22:25 am »

Can I connect over Lan without putting extra software on my file server i.e. just a UNC connection?
Could this be made possible for audio, pics and video?
What I'm asking for is that over a Lan, any MC Client/server can see a UNC path to FS and use it for its library without extra software on the remote FS.
Please.
 
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JimH

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2023, 07:28:40 am »

Yes.  Just try it.

Set up auto import and tell it to watch a folder on your file server.  Start with a limited number of files, just to try it.

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Media_Network
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mcq

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2023, 07:31:06 am »

Excellent - excited :)
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mcq

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2023, 11:41:07 am »

Configured UNC path to load server in Auto-Import, clicked Finish - immediate reboot - nothing much in Event Log
After reboot JR complained of improper shutdown - unsurprisingly.
Examined Auto Import folders and UNC path not registered.

Repeated - same again - reboot routine.

Managed to achieve path registered once - then it rebooted on clicking Run Auto-Import now.
Eventually after more reboots the files appeared in the library.
Then removed the UNC path from Auto-Import, but the files didn't disappear from the library as I would have expected now the path has been deleted  - even after running Auto-Import again.
Manually removed files from library.

Started over again - continuous reboots each time.
Checked each time and Windows Explorer can always see the share - so that's not the issue.

Nothing of any relevance in Event View Application log
Couple of entries in System log - but nothing else.




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JimH

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2023, 12:20:56 pm »

In auto import, browse to the location you want.
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mcq

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2023, 12:23:34 pm »

Did that - it crashes when finish is pressed - see Screenshot 8 above
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Hendrik

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2023, 12:41:33 pm »

Software doesn't cause an entire system to reboot, unless there is already an underlying issue that it manages to somehow trigger.
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mcq

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2023, 01:20:33 pm »

Well everything else appears stable .......
I have just mapped a drive 'J' to the remote path and the same happens.
Connecting WMC to the path is fine

Happens every time
 - could be a problem down at the network protocol level as the reboot occurs as soon as MC attempts to acquire remote resource.
Don't know what else to do.
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mcq

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2023, 01:50:48 pm »

Think its a W11 issue.
Going to install JR on my W10 production machine.
Will be back later  :)
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JimH

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2023, 02:36:26 pm »

Windows 10 or 11 both work fine with MC.  Hendrik's comments about a system reboot are right.  Hardware or driver.

Anitvirus software can also cause problems.  Windows Defender only is our advice.
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mcq

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2023, 04:59:23 pm »

Thanks for suggestions - Hendrik (hello again from a long time ago) was on the right track.
Seems to be an issue on W11 (though not necessarily W11 fault, with Intel driver on Z790 chip sets - or there abouts.
Gets triggered by some network calls - seemingly the ones that JR makes but WMC doesn't - anyway not a JR problem.

Everything now installed on W10 Z470 board and UNC path doesn't cause reboot - so thanks all.

Now to grasp library - can you have separate libraries for pics, audio, wtv etc - at the moment I just seem to have one - just getting into the wiki
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JimH

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2023, 05:13:23 pm »

Yes, you can have multiple libraries, but there is no need to.  MC is extremely flexible in how you choose to display your media.  I suggest that you use it for a while to get used to it.

I can't imagine how MC and WMC could use the network differently at a hardware level.

What are you running for antivirus?  Have you allowed MC?
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mcq

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2023, 05:19:15 pm »

Running the same AV - ESET- on both - it's definitely a driver issue somewhere -
Anyway moving on - or rather with W10  -how in theatre view do I separate videos from recorded tv - the only top level I can see is Shows which is a bit broad.
Can I add to the Theatre view top line options somehow
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JimH

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2023, 05:29:14 pm »

ESET or Windows may also be blocking with a firewall.

MC video files have a tag for Media Type and for Media Sub Type.  MC can guess what is a show, but you can over-ride it with the Media Sub Type tag.  There is a search window at the bottom of the tag window.
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mcq

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2023, 05:43:54 pm »

Well ESET is fine on W10 - really don't think it's that anyway wouldn't cause a reboot - ESET is good in my experience.

Anyway library stuff is getting beyond me I think .....
Are you saying that I only need one library for local stuff and remote stuff of all file types and then I can filter them before viewing in Theatre view.
So that all wtv (say are shows, audio is only audio and images are only jpg etc?
Can I change the word Show to Recorded TV?

It's all very clever but requires a load of knowledge to get configured - well that's how it seems to me.


I'll try and find this tag type.
Meanwhile having deleted a load of entries that were in the library, i cant get them back 'cos it says it skipped them because I previously deleted them- what?
Ignore this - now found tick button to remove previously deleted.
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JimH

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2023, 05:58:13 pm »

A reboot would be bad, but strange things happen with security software.  Here's just a sample:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,86096.msg631812.html#msg631812
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mcq

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2023, 06:09:30 pm »

OK Jim - but all is fine on W10 - so I  need to move on.

I managed to rename the Shows folder to Recorded TV which is what my wtvs are and import them from a remote FS - this is good.
But Theatre view still calls them Shows - can this be changed to reflect what the folders are called?

See pics
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JimH

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2023, 06:12:38 pm »

I managed to rename the Shows folder to Recorded TV which is what my wtvs are and import them from a remote FS - this is good.
But Theatre view still calls them Shows - can this be changed to reflect what the folders are called?
Tools > Options > Theater View  You can change the name.
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mcq

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2023, 06:30:15 pm »

Oh - let me play.

Beginning to think for a new WMC users  - not a techie who loves configuring, but someone who just wants something familiar for an easy migrate - we need  a WMC wizard?

Also can you turn thumbs from portrait to landscape as telly is mainly 16x9
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JimH

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2023, 06:49:40 pm »

There is a Zen saying ... Comparisons are odious.

When anyone changes from their old favorite to something different, there is an expectation that it will be better, worse, malleable, etc.

Letter B.  Just play.
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mcq

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2023, 07:01:02 pm »

I could reply but I won't  :)
Looking for an OOB replacement  - not something to keep playing with.
I'll persevere
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JimH

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2023, 07:04:18 pm »

Play something you love.  Forget about trying to reproduce what you knew.

Remember that you've been married to WMC a long time and you've built a complex entertainment network around it over many years.  Take your time and enjoy MC. 
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mcq

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2023, 07:38:24 pm »

Underlined option to inhibit WMC doesn't seem to do so - WMC still launches when remote is used.
*Since solved - needed a reboot - if I subsequently untick, would it restore WMC?

When setting EPG 123 guide as XMLTV source - browse box only offers .xml and hence doesn't see file - all files does of course - selection could usefully include xmltv
I managed to get this wrong by pairing tuners to a path ending .xml and of course no guide data was found.
I then found a page, which I can't find now, which said it enabled editing of this path, but it didn't, it actually added another path with no tuners - seems Edit did Add - if I find the page again I'll forward - had to reconfigure tuners and scan again.
Pics of first two points attached
Gone 0000 - 'play time' over  :)
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mcq

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2023, 07:55:21 pm »

Any chance Alt Enter could be mapped to window theatre mode and back to FS again - or is there another key combo
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JimH

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2023, 08:27:18 pm »

Green Button.
F11
Ctrl something.  3 or 4?
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mcq

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2023, 08:39:32 pm »

My bad description here
Green button still keeps Theatre view full screen - just changes the view.

 What I meant was to give the same function as this highlighted button - giving this windowed Jr within rest of windows desk top
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JimH

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2023, 09:46:57 pm »

Theate View is only full screen.

Try ctrl 1, 2 etc
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JimH

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2023, 08:35:38 am »

Explained on the wiki:
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/View_Modes

Display View can be any size, not just full screen.
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mcq

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Re: Tuners and Topology
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2023, 10:23:01 am »

Theatre View is only full screen.

Is it?

If I go into Theatre view Full screen and play a video, then click on the window box RH side of top bar, it switches to what seems to me Theatre view windowed (not Display mode). Then if I click the window box top right - see pic - it goes back to Theatre view FS and the video continues playing all the time.
Don't  believe either of these is Display Mode.

What I'm looking for is a kboard click to flick between the two view, windowed and FS of Theatre view that I have described above - in WMC it is ctrl Enter for each direction.
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