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[webspider99]

Hi,

What I'm looking for is upsampling perhaps also including DSD which I know JRiver can do but can I play Amazon music HD / hires via JRiver somehow. I was kind of expecting JRiver to install a 2nd sound device that would take audio from any source and apply upsampling / DSP. In other words will JRiver only apply audio processing to sound played from the media center - aka Amazon HD music is not supported ?

thanks for any help

[Awesome Donkey]

Audio from different apps can be piped through Media Center using the WDM driver. Not sure how well that'd do encoding everything to DSD though.

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/WDM_Driver

[rids57]

I just set Amazon Music Unlimited to play through the WDM driver and add EQ and upsample to 768kHz and it works fine. Only problem is the Windows mixer will be upsampling the 48kHz original to 192kHz before it gets near the WDM driver and MC DSP then upsamples it again from 192kHz to 768kHz. I didn't try re-encoding to DSD as that would have meant no EQ.

[JimH]

... the Windows mixer will be upsampling the 48kHz original to 192kHz before it gets near the WDM driver

It shouldn't be doing that. 

[rids57]

It shouldn't be happening and wouldn't be if Amazon had treated Exclusive mode properly but sadly they didn't. All exclusive mode does with Amazon Music is stop any other process from using the device, it doesn't switch bit depth or sample rate to match the original material, instead it re-samples to match whatever the bit depth and sample rate is in the Windows audio settings. My DAC displays the sample rate to confirm. Users have been complaining about this for years but Amazon's developers just ignore everybody.

[webspider99]

I got Amazon music playing using the WDM device to 4 x DSD as well as upsampling - as separate configs, it does sound very good in my setup. The problem I have now though is the sound lag for gaming, it's very bad, I've not tried other sources but I suspect there would be lip sync issues. I've tried adjusting my ASIO buffers to the point I got sound issues. I'm suspecting this is just what happens with layers of upsampling / DSP in between the source sound and the output to the DAC ?

[Awesome Donkey]

If you're doing a conversion from PCM to 4xDSD (DSD512) on-the-fly while using the WDM driver there's going to be issues with latency for sure, it takes a lot of resources to do the PCM to DSD conversion. So I'd say it's to be expected unfortunately.

Maybe avoid doing the PCM to DSD conversion completely? It's a lossy conversion and there's no actual, real benefit doing so. That might improve latency when using the WDM driver or it may not (it's hard to say), otherwise in my opinion doing the PCM to DSD conversion is a waste of resources.

[torgny]

I just set Amazon Music Unlimited to play through the WDM driver and add EQ and upsample to 768kHz and it works fine. Only problem is the Windows mixer will be upsampling the 48kHz original to 192kHz before it gets near the WDM driver and MC DSP then upsamples it again from 192kHz to 768kHz. I didn't try re-encoding to DSD as that would have meant no EQ.

How do you go about setting the Amazon to play through the WDM driver? That's what I want also but haven't been able to figure it out. On my laptop (Win 11) it keeps bypassing my Output choices and plays back just the same as from their website (or app).

[JimH]

Take a look at the WDM topic on the wiki.  Set it up and test playback through MC from a browser before you set up Amazon. 

[torgny]

If you're doing a conversion from PCM to 4xDSD (DSD512) on-the-fly while using the WDM driver there's going to be issues with latency for sure, it takes a lot of resources to do the PCM to DSD conversion. So I'd say it's to be expected unfortunately.

Maybe avoid doing the PCM to DSD conversion completely? It's a lossy conversion and there's no actual, real benefit doing so. That might improve latency when using the WDM driver or it may not (it's hard to say), otherwise in my opinion doing the PCM to DSD conversion is a waste of resources.

What I have found to work *extremely* well is to go to the DSP Studio / Output Format and select [DSD in DoP Format] and from the Playback Options mark [Memory Playback] [Load Decoded File Into Memory]. Never saw a need for increasing the DSD resolution, the DSD64 is plenty good and with fewer hickups.

[torgny]

Audio from different apps can be piped through Media Center using the WDM driver. Not sure how well that'd do encoding everything to DSD though.

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/WDM_Driver

I followed the protocol and it wiped out all my audio devices! The Device Manager informs "Currently, this hardware device is not connected to the computer. (Code 45)". Truly, looking at the list of (hidden) audio devices, they have all been removed and I can't get any of them started.

Installing the latest Windows update - 2023-04 Cumulative Update Preview for Windows 11 Version 22H2 for x64-based Systems (KB5025305) did not help.

All audio out has been lost, nothing will install. The only remaining way now for me to listen is via the Bluetooth headset, which still works. 

[JimH]

Sorry you had that problem, but it's not MC doing it.

Reboot your machine and see if Windows finds any devices.

Try reinstalling MC and setting up audio so it plays.  Then try WDM again.

[webspider99]

It's a lossy conversion and there's no actual, real benefit doing so.

I was under the belief that DSD gives you a more analogue type sound, there's definitely a difference to the sound, pretty much mouth open end result.

I've solved my latency issues, I'm using another DAC as my default sound output (tone board), then using JRiver WDM to bridge to my Mojo 2 DAC (ASIO) doing 4 x DSD. Then in Amazon music selecting the WDM as the sound output device. I'm then mixing both of the DAC analogue outputs using a cheap passive mixer. I can even do exclusive mode to the WDM without losing mixing audio from other sources. It works anyhow I'll see how well this setup works in the next few days.

[webspider99]

How do you go about setting the Amazon to play through the WDM driver? That's what I want also but haven't been able to figure it out. On my laptop (Win 11) it keeps bypassing my Output choices and plays back just the same as from their website (or app).

I'm on windows 10, after I ticked the WDM driver option it popped up in my sound devices, I know windows 11 tries to give you a dumbed down version of the sound control panel. The WDM sound device from JRiver should be your output device for Amazon music and in Tools->Optoins->Audio->Audio device you need to select your output device and what format you want to use.

JRiver needs to be left open to bridge the audio from the WDM to your output device - sound card / DAC. It does also seem to take a few seconds after startup to start processing the audio.

[torgny]

Sorry you had that problem, but it's not MC doing it.

Reboot your machine and see if Windows finds any devices.

Try reinstalling MC and setting up audio so it plays.  Then try WDM again.

So I uninstalled the JRMC30 and a prior JRMC24, then downloaded and installed a fresh version. No difference.

Next I contacted the Microsoft help desk, the agent spent 20+ minutes with Remote Access and said he fixed the issues. Unfortunately, after he logged off only the hardware built-in audio (Realtek) worked, nothing else. I have now reinstalled the audio driver for my Chord Mojo DAC so that works. But my other DAC (Nuforce) - which is driverless - won't play and neither will the Blutooth headset (Sennheiser) not even after I reset the unit to factory default. The Blutooth connects but will not get paired.

[Awesome Donkey]

Most Bluetooth devices only support 48 kHz and require audio (e.g. 44.1 kHz Redbook audio) to be resampled to a 48 kHz sample rate, which is why I avoid Bluetooth like the plague. You might try resampling everything to 48 kHz and see if it works then for your Bluetooth headset. You won't notice this issue in other apps like VLC, Windows Media Player, etc. since the system mixer is resampling everything in the background.

If the DAC doesn't have a driver, it's probably a USB Audio Class 2.0 supporting DAC and doesn't need them. All you'd need to do is use the WASAPI audio output for it, since I'm assuming it has no ASIO driver available.

[JimH]

And did you power everything off and back on?

[torgny]

And did you power everything off and back on?

Thank you, that is a good tip. You reminded me that Lenovo used to recommend turning off completely and waiting 20 seconds before starting up again - sometimes even removing the battery in the meantime. Apparently the memory needs to be flushed for certain resets to take effect.

[torgny]

Most Bluetooth devices only support 48 kHz and require audio (e.g. 44.1 kHz Redbook audio) to be resampled to a 48 kHz sample rate, which is why I avoid Bluetooth like the plague. You might try resampling everything to 48 kHz and see if it works then for your Bluetooth headset. You won't notice this issue in other apps like VLC, Windows Media Player, etc. since the system mixer is resampling everything in the background.

If the DAC doesn't have a driver, it's probably a USB Audio Class 2.0 supporting DAC and doesn't need them. All you'd need to do is use the WASAPI audio output for it, since I'm assuming it has no ASIO driver available.

Well, I found a driver under the Blutooth tab as opposed to Audio Devices and reinstalled that which seems to have done the trick. My Blutooth headset now works fine both in-and-outside of MC and it only took me 36 hours to fix . . .

And yes, you are right, the Nuforce uDAC2 doesn't need a specific driver. It has been with me through thick and thin for 12 years and never gave me a problem until now. It was always referred to by name though - not as "generic audio" or such.

Unfortunately, after installing WDM it has disappeared altogether and no longer seen on the list of available output devices in MC or anywhere else. Curiously, the ASIO4ALL still remembers it and plays just fine by selecting ASIO4ALL as output device and activated on the Configuration Panel (or from the Win 11 Start Menu). However, it cannot be used for sound in general and certainly not with Youtube or other streaming services.

The above leads me to suspect that there may be a conflict between MC and ASIO4ALL if both compete for WDM (ASIO4ALL has an option to select it just like MC). What do you think?

Torgny

P.S. I don't use Blutooth for musical enjoyment, only outside of MC for freedom of movement while doing other things - like cooking spaghetti and meatballs!

[Awesome Donkey]

ASIO4ALL should be avoided when possible in general, and it's not actually ASIO, it's a wrapper for kernel streaming.