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Author Topic: Don't Know Much About Linux  (Read 568 times)

max096

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Don't Know Much About Linux
« on: December 28, 2023, 10:00:12 am »

....why I thought Linux was a joke....tried to install Debian.....fail and lockup...tried two different flavors of ubuntu....nothing....except Blacklisting errors...this is a modern system running win 11 Pro with no real issues....it was an interesting experiment....

....but i will just pay MS now and then and buy a copy of Windows....then go listen to music and not spend hours "saving" money with linux....

Probably on debian 12 you´d need to enable non-free and contrib repositories to have a solid experience. Some hardware needs proprietary firmware blobs to work at all. Debian 12 split up the driver repos into a non-free one and a regular one where all the drivers are free. None of them cost money it´s about is it open source or not. But if your hardware needs them to function properly you don´t have much wiggle room to care about that.

But tbh if you´re happy using windows trying linux with the main expectation being "saving money" you´re wasting your time imo. Windows is close to free nowadays anyways. They clearly do not care anymore to make money off of selling licenses to consumers.
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jmz

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Re: Don't Know Much About Linux
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2023, 11:48:09 am »

...

...

Windows is close to free nowadays anyways. They clearly do not care anymore to make money off of selling licenses to consumers.

I wouldn't expect anything good from MS. Maybe they will introduce Windows as subscription service one day. But probably earlier we will see adverts being displayed on Windows OS. Also each new version will spy on us more. If something from big company is coming for free (or almost free) we and our privacy are the price.

Ubuntu and Debian are easy to install in most situations. Unless someone have very new hardware or is making some mistakes during installation process or have some hardware problems.

I don't want to compare Windows vs Linux here... but if you will look on Windows forums... you will have many people who have problems to install Windows on their computers.

I'm JRiver Media user for a few years now... recently converted my licence to Master and now moved to Debian 12.4 In my opinion it was great choice.

PS.
I have multiple computers at home and work. A few years ago all of them where running on Windows (including Windows Server 2012 Essentials on server).

Today I'm using Windows on tablet and one workstation where I use Adobe Photoshop. I may also migrate one day to Linux on my tablet.
But I will have to stay on Windows on 1 computer where I use Photoshop.

Everything else is running on Linux.
 
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Awesome Donkey

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Re: Don't Know Much About Linux
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2023, 11:55:47 am »

Sounds to me you have newer hardware (e.g. newer Nvidia GPU, newer AMD/Intel CPU, etc.) and by blacklisting drivers, I assume you have a newer Nvidia GPU and you're trying to blacklist Nouveau and run the proprietary Nvidia driver? If that's the case, you should probably use a distro that is more on the cutting edge with newer kernels and drivers. Rolling distros like Manjaro, EndeavorOS and XenoLinux (all Arch Linux based) come to mind here. Distros like Debian, Ubuntu LTS, Linux Mint, elementaryOS, etc. run older kernels and drivers typically and if you're using newer hardware, you may have nothing but issues. Yeah, there's workarounds like PPA and repositories, but it's just a hassle.

Be warned though, if you have secure boot enabled in your UEFI BIOS and you either won't disable it or can't disable it, it's going to limit your Linux distro choices greatly, as only a handful (Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSUSE, etc.) support secure boot.

Honestly though? You might be better off sticking to Windows 11 if it already does everything you want it to.
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jmz

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Re: Don't Know Much About Linux
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2023, 12:04:45 pm »

Sounds to me you have newer hardware (e.g. newer Nvidia GPU, newer AMD/Intel CPU, etc.) and by blacklisting drivers, I assume you have a newer Nvidia GPU and you're trying to blacklist Nouveau and run the proprietary Nvidia driver? If that's the case, you should probably use a distro that is more on the cutting edge with newer kernels and drivers. Rolling distros like Manjaro, EndeavorOS and XenoLinux (all Arch Linux based) come to mind here. Distros like Debian, Ubuntu LTS, Linux Mint, elementaryOS, etc. run older kernels and drivers typically and if you're using newer hardware, you may have nothing but issues. Yeah, there's workarounds like PPA and repositories, but it's just a hassle.

Be warned though, if you have secure boot enabled in your UEFI BIOS and you either won't disable it or can't disable it, it's going to limit your Linux distro choices greatly, as only a handful (Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSUSE, etc.) support secure boot.

Honestly though? You might be better off sticking to Windows 11 if it already does everything you want it to.

Yes... this is the problem when very new hardware meets Linux.

Wish to see better support for new hardware from Linux... and Adobe software working on Linux (without Wine etc.)

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Awesome Donkey

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Re: Don't Know Much About Linux
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2023, 02:03:09 pm »

Wish to see better support for new hardware from Linux... and Adobe software working on Linux (without Wine etc.)

Well, better Linux hardware support and Nvidia don't really mix, but nothing new there. I recently bought a new GPU, and I almost got a Nvidia GTX 4070... then I remembered that I might want to use Linux and dealing with Nvidia's proprietary drivers is something I did NOT want to do. So I picked up a AMD RX 7800 XT for Black Friday and it's been a great with both Windows 11 and Ubuntu 23.10. And on Ubuntu there's no need to mess around with proprietary drivers or driver PPAs, no tweaks or anything needed. It works extremely well out-of-the-box. With CPUs there's really not much issue with those, as both AMD and Intel typically send in what's needed for the Linux kernel way before the new CPUs release.
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jmz

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Re: Don't Know Much About Linux
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2023, 03:58:28 pm »

Well, better Linux hardware support and Nvidia don't really mix, but nothing new there. I recently bought a new GPU, and I almost got a Nvidia GTX 4070... then I remembered that I might want to use Linux and dealing with Nvidia's proprietary drivers is something I did NOT want to do. So I picked up a AMD RX 7800 XT for Black Friday and it's been a great with both Windows 11 and Ubuntu 23.10. And on Ubuntu there's no need to mess around with proprietary drivers or driver PPAs, no tweaks or anything needed. It works extremely well out-of-the-box. With CPUs there's really not much issue with those, as both AMD and Intel typically send in what's needed for the Linux kernel way before the new CPUs release.

I want to build new workstation next year. But I don't think that I will go for GTX 40xx. Also because of Adobe software I will not go for Linux as main system. But I may setup Linux as second system for other than Adobe tasks.

Most of my IT hardware is at least few years old... this is why I'm not facing too much problems.

But installing nVidia drivers on Debian 12.4 some time ago was bit too complicated for me. Maybe in the future I will be able to do it.

This is the pain... sometimes simple tasks can cause problems on Linux... then we need invest some time to solve them. After that... it is OK.
I remember when you mentioned sudo differences between Debian and Ubuntu. Problem is bit more complicated than I initially thought. But managed to solve it.

BTW... both Debian 12.4 and Ubuntu 22.04 are using wayland as window manager. But on Debian I can change monitor refresh rate... on Ubuntu not.
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Awesome Donkey

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Re: Don't Know Much About Linux
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2023, 05:03:31 pm »

I don't think Adobe will ever release any of the Creative Cloud apps for Linux due to the low userbase compared to Windows and Mac, which is a shame. But I do get why this is, they likely know that investing time developing for Linux won't really make a return on that investment, it's likely not enticing enough for them even though the lack of Adobe apps is a holdout for a good number of would-be Linux users. That's why I generally recommending dual booting Windows and a Linux distro instead of replacing Windows with Linux... unless you want to completely escape the Windows ecosystem and know full well there's going to be apps not available on Linux (and won't run well through Wine/Proton) and any alternatives may not be as good.

BTW... both Debian 12.4 and Ubuntu 22.04 are using wayland as window manager. But on Debian I can change monitor refresh rate... on Ubuntu not.

No problems changing monitor refresh rate here with Ubuntu 23.10, I have a 165Hz monitor and I can switch refresh rates without issue in both the Wayland and X11 sessions. This could be a Nvidia thing too, so that would be my guess (I'm soooo glad I didn't get a Nvidia GPU).
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I don't work for JRiver... I help keep the forums safe from Viagra and other sources of sketchy pharmaceuticals.

Windows 11 2024 Update (24H2) 64-bit + Ubuntu 24.04 LTS Noble Numbat 64-bit | Windows 11 2024 Update (24H2) 64-bit (Intel N305 Fanless NUC 32GB RAM/500GB M.2 NVMe SSD)
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mattkhan

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Re: Don't Know Much About Linux
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2023, 05:25:23 pm »

this thread is OT, it has nothing to do with MC and is simply "I don't know much about linux"

But installing nVidia drivers on Debian 12.4 some time ago was bit too complicated for me. Maybe in the future I will be able to do it.
https://wiki.debian.org/NvidiaGraphicsDrivers#Debian_12_.22Bookworm.22

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max096

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Re: Don't Know Much About Linux
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2023, 06:20:23 pm »

I wouldn't expect anything good from MS. Maybe they will introduce Windows as subscription service one day. But probably earlier we will see adverts being displayed on Windows OS. Also each new version will spy on us more. If something from big company is coming for free (or almost free) we and our privacy are the price.

I would say "free" version of Windows with subscription for AI features is definitely a possibility. We'll see.

You´ve listed a bunch of reasons why someone might not like windows. I just think if price is the only thing on your list (you essential want to use Windows but for free) you´ve got a very weak reason to use Linux out of all the ones you could have picked.

Well, better Linux hardware support and Nvidia don't really mix, but nothing new there. I recently bought a new GPU, and I almost got a Nvidia GTX 4070... then I remembered that I might want to use Linux and dealing with Nvidia's proprietary drivers is something I did NOT want to do. So I picked up a AMD RX 7800 XT for Black Friday and it's been a great with both Windows 11 and Ubuntu 23.10. And on Ubuntu there's no need to mess around with proprietary drivers or driver PPAs, no tweaks or anything needed. It works extremely well out-of-the-box. With CPUs there's really not much issue with those, as both AMD and Intel typically send in what's needed for the Linux kernel way before the new CPUs release.

NVK is getting along lately too. There was some tweet at some point where it supposedly beat proprietary drivers in some vulkan game. Looked a bit flaky though because the proprietary one pushed 165fps exactly. Did he forget to turn off vsync? Or does vsync just not do anything on the open source drivers? Anyway, point is we could see open source drivers for nvidia be very useable (soon tm) on modern cards (2xxx series and up as I understand). As long as you don´t need cuda. Which you (probably) don´t care about very much if you drop nvidia all together because of not having a working oss driver (there is some wiggle room in that argument because maybe amd or intels stuff can fill the gap for xyz application and then you just don´t have anything on nvidia).
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jmz

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Re: Don't Know Much About Linux
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2023, 06:27:21 pm »

this thread is OT, it has nothing to do with MC and is simply "I don't know much about linux"
https://wiki.debian.org/NvidiaGraphicsDrivers#Debian_12_.22Bookworm.22

Thanks... I know this tutorial. I tried it some time ago. But first I had problem that Debian wanted the CD with installation version. I learned how to solve this.

But then at some point of installing the drivers... something went wrong. I can't remember what.
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jmz

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Re: Don't Know Much About Linux
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2023, 06:33:57 pm »

I would say "free" version of Windows with subscription for AI features is definitely a possibility. We'll see.

You´ve listed a bunch of reasons why someone might not like windows. I just think if price is the only thing on your list (you essential want to use Windows but for free) you´ve got a very weak reason to use Linux out of all the once you could have picked.

...

I think that my learning about Linux consumed more time than I would have earned doing my job to pay for Windows licences. But this is experience which I already have and now will be easier for me to learn more advanced things.

But... it is not only about the money... why so many people are migrating to Linux now.

Also... it is more fun to build own WWW server instead of paying hosting company for it. The same with own cloud server at home etc.

Some people go fishing... others during winter time... are learning about Linux and JRiver ;-)
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Awesome Donkey

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Re: Don't Know Much About Linux
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2023, 07:09:04 am »

this thread is OT, it has nothing to do with MC and is simply "I don't know much about linux"

Yep, pretty much. I imagine Jim will probably move the thread at some point.

NVK is getting along lately too. There was some tweet at some point where it supposedly beat proprietary drivers in some vulkan game. Looked a bit flaky though because the proprietary one pushed 165fps exactly. Did he forget to turn off vsync? Or does vsync just not do anything on the open source drivers? Anyway, point is we could see open source drivers for nvidia be very useable (soon tm) on modern cards (2xxx series and up as I understand). As long as you don´t need cuda. Which you (probably) don´t care about very much if you drop nvidia all together because of not having a working oss driver (there is some wiggle room in that argument because maybe amd or intels stuff can fill the gap for xyz application and then you just don´t have anything on nvidia).

NVK (an open-source Nvidia Vulkan driver) is great to see, and the progress it has made is great for Linux gamers especially. It's just a shame that Nouveau is pretty much useless for newer Nvidia GPUs (for reclocking support they have to wait for signed binary firmware from Nvidia, which I doubt is coming anytime soon, if ever, for newer GPUs) and users are basically forced to use the proprietary drivers. I don't think Nvidia is really that serious about open-source and are pretending to care at face value so they can say they've changed and care when they don't), I mean why would they care? They never have before and it certainly has no benefit to them when they already have mature proprietary drivers. I see their attempts as half-hearted at best, straight up smoke screen at worst. I would honestly be surprised if Nvidia plans to stick around in the graphics business for the long term since their AI business has started to take off like a rocket.

Back to Linux and Nvidia GPUs... I feel bad for users who have secure boot enabled (and you either can't or won't disable it because you're dual booting with Windows 11) since with most distros you're going to have to self-sign the proprietary Nvidia drivers to get the system to even boot. I believe Ubuntu is one of it not the only Linux distro that has signed Nvidia drivers and works out-of-the-box with secure boot enabled. Other distros like Debian and Fedora support secure boot too but (as far as I know) you'd have to self-sign the Nvidia drivers to get it to work with secure boot enabled. And distros like Arch Linux you'd have to self-sign both the bootloader and the Nvidia drivers to get the system to boot with secure boot enabled.

I honestly would say to potential users that if they have a newer generation Nvidia GPU, unless they are experienced with Linux and know exactly what they're doing it's probably better to avoid using Linux and just stick with Windows because of the potential hassles involved... which is exactly what I assume the OP encountered here.
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I don't work for JRiver... I help keep the forums safe from Viagra and other sources of sketchy pharmaceuticals.

Windows 11 2024 Update (24H2) 64-bit + Ubuntu 24.04 LTS Noble Numbat 64-bit | Windows 11 2024 Update (24H2) 64-bit (Intel N305 Fanless NUC 32GB RAM/500GB M.2 NVMe SSD)
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max096

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Re: Don't Know Much About Linux
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2023, 11:46:41 am »

It's just a shame that Nouveau is pretty much useless for newer Nvidia GPUs (for reclocking support they have to wait for signed binary firmware from Nvidia, which I doubt is coming anytime soon, if ever, for newer GPUs) and users are basically forced to use the proprietary drivers.

GSP firmware for 4000 series cards was merged into kernel 6.7 not too long ago.
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rifergom

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Re: Don't Know Much About Linux
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2023, 03:17:52 pm »

In my humble case I must say that linux is a blessing, under my point of view windows doesn't care about the user in the least, besides following him deeply, to know until when he is going to empty his bladder (and this is true).


And the future is not at all pleasant, the business model of this company is to collect data, instead of offering an operating system at the total service of the user, but it is clear that this is a personal vision.


Regarding Linux in general and JRiver in particular, the sound I get from my machine, I never got it from windows with the proprietary driver that is not developed since 2016 (but this is up to the hardware manufacturer, Sound Blaster, rather than windows) of my X7 DAC/AMP.


And it really seems like magic to get the same performance in games, and in many cases better than the same game running on windows.


For what it's worth, my distro is MXlinux 23.1 libretto, Nvidia driver 535.146.02 and pipewire.



❯ pactl info


Server string: /run/user/1000/pulse/native


Library protocol version: 35


Server protocol version: 35


Is Local: yes


Client index: 717


Mosaic Size: 65472


User name: XXXXXXXXXXXXXX


Host Name: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


Server Name: PulseAudio (in PipeWire 1.0.0)


Server version: 15.0.0


Default sample specification: float32le 2ch 96000Hz


Default channel mapping: front-left,front-right


Default source: alsa_output.usb-Creative_Technology_Ltd_Sound_Blaster_X7_0000007J-00.analog-stereo


Default source: alsa_output.usb-Creative_Technology_Ltd_Sound_Blaster_X7_0000007J-00.analog-stereo.monitor


Cookie 68d6:56fa



MxLinux, is based on debian, but it is a Semi rolling release distro, so many applications and utilities are updated to the latest stable versions. It has 3 desktop environments, the most popular being XFCE (the other two are KDE Plasma and Fluxbox), although you can install any of them. And finally, among the installation isos available, there is AHS (Advanced Hardware Support) with ultra-modern kernel versions, which support the latest hardware.



Please understand the following with the utmost respect, but windows means involution.

Happy New Year to all
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ths61

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Re: Don't Know Much About Linux
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2024, 04:26:46 pm »

...
... why so many people are migrating to Linux now.
...

Telemetry, adware, spyware, malware, bloatware, virus distribution vector, network bandwidth hog, forced cloud, endless updates, nuisance background apps that are automatically reinstalled after pairing down/deleted/disabled, ... 

You are paying MS to monopolize your HW, bandwidth and data.

Did I miss anything ?


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