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Author Topic: JRVR: Adjust subtitle brightness in HDR?  (Read 705 times)

DocCharky

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JRVR: Adjust subtitle brightness in HDR?
« on: March 19, 2024, 01:42:21 am »

Hi,

Would it be possible to re-add the option to tweak the brightness of subtitles when in HDR mode?

I remember it was there a few versions back, but it seems to have been removed: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,132879.msg920805.html#msg920805

It's a shame because it's very useful, especially with overly bright/white PGS subtitles in early HDR movies, that can't be tweaked by changing subtitle color to light grey.

Plus, MPC Video Renderer has this option :D

Thx!
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Charky

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Hendrik

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Re: JRVR: Adjust subtitle brightness in HDR?
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2024, 06:58:03 am »

If the problem in particular appears with PGS subtitles in HDR movies, its certainly possible that the PGS subtitles are in HDR themselves, or erroneously treated as such, in which case color settings do not apply to it regardless.
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Bob Sorel

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Re: JRVR: Adjust subtitle brightness in HDR?
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2024, 11:02:19 am »

Hendrik, while I am here in this thread, we discussed having user controllable "default" subtitle settings in the past, but you never said whether or not you are planning on employing such a feature at any point. I feel strongly that if possible, users having control of as many of the default parameters as possible would be a valuable addition to MC and would be well received by the user base. Yes, I fully realize, as many others do, that subtitles come in different formats, and even with user controllable defaults not all subtitles would be affected, but any improvement in that direction would be greatly appreciated! I assume that MC has picked a set of defaults that you (or someone else ) has determined to be the best all around preferences, or they are determined by the source,  but several other players that I own allow better control of subtitles (especially in setting defaults) than that which is currently available in MC, and as such users can improve the defaults for their particular screen AR, type, etc. Just provide a caveat that the defaults will not be effective in EVERY case. For example, regarding placement, madVR (I hate to keep bringing it up) has a single setting that allows it to place subtitles inside of the active content area of the AR, and under most circumstances, it works extremely well, making it unnecessary to open the on screen dialog EVERY time in order to:

1. Find out if there are any subtitles there (like forced subs)
2. If there are subs, then make the adjustments so that they are displayed the way that the user wants.

Sure, the changes get saved on a title by title basis, but it gets old very quickly to be forced to do this for virtually every video watched, one at a time. And sometimes, I don't remember whether I have already adjusted that particular title or not, so I have to open the on screen menu each and every time I play a video even if it is for no other reason than to check.

I hope that this post is not too far off-topic, as brightness (from the original OP's post) might be one of those user controllable parameters that could be available in user defined defaults.

If you are not planning any changes in subtitle handling, please let me know and I will stop beating a dead horse...I don't wish to annoy you in any way, as I really appreciate and respect all of your work.

Oh yeah, and since I said this much, I would also request more granularity in settings. For example, instead of providing movement of subs in 5% increments, 1% increments would be really really nice, or maybe use a control that moves subs on a pixel basis instead of a percentage basis.

Thank you for your consideration and your great work!
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DocCharky

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Re: JRVR: Adjust subtitle brightness in HDR?
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2024, 01:40:26 am »

If the problem in particular appears with PGS subtitles in HDR movies, its certainly possible that the PGS subtitles are in HDR themselves, or erroneously treated as such, in which case color settings do not apply to it regardless.

Well, all I know is that, for some reason (maybe bad mastering ?) madvr and JRVR give me blinding white subtitles in some movies, and that the "Subtitle and OSD brightness" slider in MPC Video Renderer tames them to something actually watchable in the dark.

That's a very useful option, that works with all kind of subtitles (PGS, SRT...).

I wish JRVR (still) had it :)
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Charky

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Hendrik

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Re: JRVR: Adjust subtitle brightness in HDR?
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2024, 03:08:37 am »

If its super-bright then its treated as a HDR subtitle, and the setting would not apply to it regardless, because HDR subtitles bring their own brightness information.
SDR subtitles are at like 160 nits right now, which was balanced for readability and contrast against the video. Its far from any definition of "super-bright" - and thats if they are plain white.

But we should probably look into if PGS subtitles are sometimes erroneously used as HDR. Unfortunately, the subtitle itself does not indicate this. But we could try to look at the color palette maybe and try to determine it. A proper HDR subtitle would likely not use 10000 nits white text.

Note that I'm not ruling out adding the option, but understanding the issue is important, otherwise we might add the option back and it does nothing for you.
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Hendrik

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Re: JRVR: Adjust subtitle brightness in HDR?
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2024, 08:56:56 am »

The next build will check PGS subtitles if they are too bright for a HDR subtitle, and then treat them like SDR, properly controlling their brightness. This may help this case.
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DocCharky

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Re: JRVR: Adjust subtitle brightness in HDR?
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2024, 10:46:00 am »

That's nice, thx, I'm eager to try that!

Anyway, I have no idea how hard this could be, but, as Bob Sorel said, wouldn't that be better to give users the ability to choose? i.e. "I want all my subtitles to be X nits ?". With a "default" value that could be the current 160 nits of SDR subtitles ?
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Charky

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Drybonz

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Re: JRVR: Adjust subtitle brightness in HDR?
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2024, 01:43:23 pm »

I think it was discussed before, but color changeable .pgs would be a very nice feature for subtitle users, if it's possible.  I think I read it is possible in Kodi.
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Manni

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Re: JRVR: Adjust subtitle brightness in HDR?
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2024, 05:18:34 pm »

The next build will check PGS subtitles if they are too bright for a HDR subtitle, and then treat them like SDR, properly controlling their brightness. This may help this case.

Has this been implemented yet? Subtitles on a 1,100nits oled in a dark room make me blind :)

It would be great if this could be handled automatically (especially with forced subs)
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jmone

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Re: JRVR: Adjust subtitle brightness in HDR?
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2024, 08:15:40 pm »

What version of MC are you running?

Hendrik made this change in 32.0.28 (and later)

Quote
32.0.28 (3/21/2024)

1. NEW: Added an error free toolbar button to show the status and allow toggling.  Also added to the view menu.
2. Fixed: Double-click on the play button was not stopping.
3. NEW: The brightness of PGS subtitles on HDR movies is checked to determine if they are proper HDR subtitles, and are treated as SDR subtitles if not.
4. Fixed: XMP image tagging did not work with some non-ASCII characters.
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Manni

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Re: JRVR: Adjust subtitle brightness in HDR?
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2024, 02:27:14 am »

What version of MC are you running?

Hendrik made this change in 32.0.28 (and later)

I use the latest (32.0.37) but I use HDR passthrough, maybe it makes a difference when JRVR doesn't tonemap itself.

EDIT: correction, just realised that the HTPC was still using 32.0.26, will update, test again and report back, thanks.
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Manni

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Re: JRVR: Adjust subtitle brightness in HDR?
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2024, 02:42:19 am »

Checked with 32.0.37 and the subs are much better, thanks!
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Hendrik

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Re: JRVR: Adjust subtitle brightness in HDR?
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2024, 03:03:08 am »

Depending on how you view the subtitles, this may not take effect for Blu-ray Menu playback, so if some cases are still over bright please let us know how exactly playback is setup.
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