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[walbo]

can I rip DVD Audio and SACD 5.5 to hard drive? I have optical in and out

[Shady Bimmer]

Not currently and it is very unlikely you'll ever be able to rip either to alternate storage. . .then again they did say the same for DVD video. . .

Both formats were devised with PCs in mind and both use technologies explicitly preventing the extraction and playing of digital stream from anything other than the original media.

You'll also find that standalone DVD-A and SACD drives will not pass these higher-quality streams through their SPDIF outputs.  There are one or two that have a firewire port and the player/transport will use DTCP 5(C) with copy-never flags set.  A digital processor (such as a receiver) with a firewire port will be able to authenticate and decrypt the stream for playback but your PC again will be useless here (no PCI-based firewire cards support DTCP)

It really doesn't have much to do with technogoly being the limiting factor either.  Licensing now typically restricts the copy-protection to hardware only, with very heavy fines to a manufacturer if one of their licensed devices is used to break the licensed technology.  Reportedly a single fine would be enough to bankrupt most smaller companies and cause a significant financial burden on larger companies. . .but that is mostly speculation since hardware manufacturers so far seem to be steering well-clear of any possibility of infraction.

[bspachman]

At least for DVD-A there are ways to get the required-by-spec AC3/DTS tracks off the disc and onto your machine. That is more like ripping a DVD, however, and should not be confused with getting the full 96/24 or 192/24 DVD-A bitstream.

SACD--I believe you are totally out of luck unless you actually record the multi-channel output onto your hard drive.

Best,
Brad

[Shady Bimmer]

At least for DVD-A there are ways to get the required-by-spec AC3/DTS tracks off the disc and onto your machine. That is more like ripping a DVD, however, and should not be confused with getting the full 96/24 or 192/24 DVD-A bitstream.

Yes with both DVD-A and Hybrid SACD you'll be able to rip the standard formats but not the higher-resolution formats.

With both formats physical characteristics of the disc are part of the cipher used to encrypt the data.  Even if you found a way to extract the data it is unlikely you'd be able to replicate the physical portion required to decrypt the data.

If someone does find a way to break a manufacturer's hardware to be able to extract the unencrypted stream, that manufacturer likely won't remain in business much longer.  For that simple reason CE manufacturers will do all they can to prevent this.

[Matt]

At least for DVD-A there are ways to get the required-by-spec AC3/DTS tracks off the disc and onto your machine. That is more like ripping a DVD, however, and should not be confused with getting the full 96/24 or 192/24 DVD-A bitstream.

Yes with both DVD-A and Hybrid SACD you'll be able to rip the standard formats but not the higher-resolution formats.

With both formats physical characteristics of the disc are part of the cipher used to encrypt the data.  Even if you found a way to extract the data it is unlikely you'd be able to replicate the physical portion required to decrypt the data.

If someone does find a way to break a manufacturer's hardware to be able to extract the unencrypted stream, that manufacturer likely won't remain in business much longer.  For that simple reason CE manufacturers will do all they can to prevent this.

That's why we should refuse to buy HD audio content until they allow a computer friendly solution.

[Shady Bimmer]

That's why we should refuse to buy HD audio content until they allow a computer friendly solution.

I couldn't agree more!  I don't disagree with protection of copyrights but I cabsolutely disagree with it interfering with fair-use

[DougHamm]

That's why we should refuse to buy HD audio content until they allow a computer friendly solution.

Matt, define what that means to you: the ability to play the media on a PC, or the ability to rip the content to a PC?  If it's the former, DVD-A has support from Creative Labs today, and Intel in the form of the new high-def audio spec coming this summer on new mainboards.  Intervideo WinDVD will play back DVD-A on any sound card (downsampled to 48kHz - but not compressed AC3) and any unprotected DVD-A (they aren't all protected) at full resolution if a sound card supports those high resolutions.

If it's the latter, well, I'm not sure what to say about the practicality of what you're asking.  MLP-compressed multichannel audio is already massive, it won't get any smaller losslessly, and there isn't any player I'm aware of that would know what to do with it anyway.  If it were only an issue of DRM, the many unprotected DVD-A's should theoretically be floating around the 'net.  But I sure don't see them.

If you really want to exercise your right to take a downsampled version along in the car or on your iPod, current DVD-A's can have their AC3 or DTS tracks ripped.  In the future, they'll likely have pre-encoded AAC tracks right on the disc - though my guess is as good as anyone's on what sort of DRM may exist...presumably similar to iTunes where you can burn a copy for the car, whatever.

As far as I'm concerned, DVD-A has what it takes to be a viable media and my theory is that it will follow the same basic adoption cycle that DVD-Video did, only much slower - the perceived benefits over CD compared to VHS->DVD-aren't as obvious of course.  In spite of that, rising adoption of DVD-V and DVD-A capable home theater (in a box) systems thanks to the hdtv craze is only driving interest in the format, and it's currently one of the few areas of positive growth in the record industry association.


Take care,

-Doug

(Listening to Metallica - "Wherever I May Roam" in 5.1 surround while giving MC10 a much needed break tonight)

[Matt]

I want a format that uses a free and open codec, and  I want to be able to rip and catalog the content with a PC.  The current CD technology gives both of these.  On the other hand, I could go to jail for making tools to rip and catalog DVD-A audio.

Why depend on closed, proprietary standards that are very expensive for companies (like JRiver) to support?  Creating a simple lossless compressor that outperforms MLP (and WMA / Apple) isn't that hard.

And size problems always go away with time, so that certainly isn't a factor in allowing people to catalog the music with a PC.

The idealist in me thinks there's a chance a grass-roots campaign that created an open HD audio format could gain traction.  Not sure where the realist in me stands though...

[paulr]

Matt,  I think that an open standard is feasible.  Just look at archive.org or etree.org.  They have TONS of concerts recorded legally by fans, mostly uploaded in flac format.  If something better than redbook came along that was an open standard, I am sure those people that record these concerts would love to switch... at least some of them.  After that, it would only be a matter of time before it caught on.  (I just got back from a Gov't Mule concert and there were 5 or 6 guys recording the show).

I agree though with not supporting these new formats.  I am sure I'll buy one or two releases 'just to see', but I'll need a new player first (long way off).  I'd personally rather wait for a while and see what happens.

[DougHamm]

I want a format that uses a free and open codec, and  I want to be able to rip and catalog the content with a PC.  The current CD technology gives both of these.  On the other hand, I could go to jail for making tools to rip and catalog DVD-A audio.

Why depend on closed, proprietary standards that are very expensive for companies (like JRiver) to support?  Creating a simple lossless compressor that outperforms MLP (and WMA / Apple) isn't that hard.

And size problems always go away with time, so that certainly isn't a factor in allowing people to catalog the music with a PC.

The idealist in me thinks there's a chance a grass-roots campaign that created an open HD audio format could gain traction.  Not sure where the realist in me stands though...

Someone in the APE-WAV thread yesterday said something very poignant (to the effect of), "I think some people are so concerned about the difference between MP3, APE, Cd, etc. that they're not listening to the music anymore."  

In the same vein, I do certainly hope that we music lovers don't ultimately let digital rights management ruin our enjoyment of music.  That's the main reason that I've - for the most part - come to terms with DRM and bought into the new technology with all its strings.  Especially since more and more CDs are copy guarded too.

I consider myself an idealistic person too, and I'd love to have the same freedoms as I currently have with CDs, but since it's not terribly practical today anyway I don't feel I'm missing much.  Media Center didn't exist when CDs were introduced and the format still caught on.  Perhaps in as many years as it took for burners to be introduced and MC10 to be perfected, we'll find that the equivalent experience offered by stereo/multichannel HD formats like DVD-A will be widely available to anyone without all the strings in some open format.  I don't have any faith that the record insdustry would ever buy into it, but I'm all for more options.

-Doug

[DougHamm]

Matt,  I think that an open standard is feasible.  Just look at archive.org or etree.org.  They have TONS of concerts recorded legally by fans, mostly uploaded in flac format.  If something better than redbook came along that was an open standard, I am sure those people that record these concerts would love to switch... at least some of them.  After that, it would only be a matter of time before it caught on.  (I just got back from a Gov't Mule concert and there were 5 or 6 guys recording the show).

I agree though with not supporting these new formats.  I am sure I'll buy one or two releases 'just to see', but I'll need a new player first (long way off).  I'd personally rather wait for a while and see what happens.

You'd need hardware capable of recording in better-than-redbook format first or the point would be lost.  And the inclusion of open codecs for playback (let alone recording) on portable devices isn't very common at present.  Granted, ultraportable computers and high-end USB audio adapters like the M-Audio Transport are real...