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[lockeness]

I have scanned all of my tunes for replay gain.  I have set it up in the DSP section.  I have set the replay gain to be fixed at +11.

I have some notoriously soft cd's and while this helps, there seems to still be fairly large volume drop off between older cd's and new ones.  So I played an older cd an looked at the replay gain information:

Song replay gain = -7.0 db
Fixed replay gain = +11.0 db
Adjustment = + 4.0 db

I would expect the adjustment to have been +18.0 db.  It seems that it is taking the absolute value of the song's replay gain as opposed to the actual replay gain, this looks like a bug.  Either that or I don't understand how this is supposed to work.

[lockeness]

From the help file:

Example of Fixed Replay Gain Adjustment
This is from RemyJ, originally posted on Interact on Sep 30 2002:

"Let's say you have 2 tracks, one analyzed at -14db and one analyzed at -10db. When played back with replay gain turned on, MJ will adjust the volume by those amounts resulting in them sounding about the same volume. The problem is that they'll both be a lot softer than they were originally. To compensate for this, you can set the global adjustment up to bring them both up to a more "normal" level (the definition of which is left to the listener). In this example, if you set the global adjustment to +10, the second track would sound about like what it did before and the first track would be set to -4db to make it close

There's at least one serious downside to this however. Tracks that aren't analyzed default to 0db adjustment which means if the global adjustment were set to +10db you'd probably have to pull the cat off the ceiling when one of these tracks played"

When the relplay gain is a positive number, it works fine:

fixed rg: +11
song rg: +7
Adjustment: +4

but when the song is negative rg, it works as outlined in my first post.  So i still think there is a problem.

[GHammer]

Maybe the documentation needs changed, but I think the way it works is logical.

I don't know why I'd want to apply a global boost or cut though. I thought that is what a volume control does...

[lockeness]

I'm not try to accomplish a global boost or cut.  CD's released in the past 5 or so years have replay gains in the +7 - +18 range, while my older cd's, circa 1990-1995 have replay gains in the -7.0 range.  So when you set a comfortable volume level for a newer cd, its fine, but when an older song comes on you can bearly hear it.  And so on and so on.

I thought the whole point of replay gain was to normalize the volume of all songs in the library so there are not large variances in overall voluyme levels.  If not, somebody let me know and I'll drop it.

[Alex B]

MC11 has Album Gain. I think it does pretty much what you want. I also think that you must use "Automatic based on current playlist" adjustment instead of fixed.

[GHammer]

I'm not try to accomplish a global boost or cut.  CD's released in the past 5 or so years have replay gains in the +7 - +18 range, while my older cd's, circa 1990-1995 have replay gains in the -7.0 range.  So when you set a comfortable volume level for a newer cd, its fine, but when an older song comes on you can bearly hear it.  And so on and so on.

I thought the whole point of replay gain was to normalize the volume of all songs in the library so there are not large variances in overall voluyme levels.  If not, somebody let me know and I'll drop it.

It is to make all selections sound relatively the same loudness.

If you use only MP3s, you can run MP3Gain on them all and set your own reference level. A side benefit of that is the gain you apply will be used by any device that plays MP3s.

If you use many different formats then MC's replay gain function is the only method you'll have and as I recall it is coded to -90 or some such. It does now have album gain and selection gain so you have some additional control.

Or, you can investigate some of the DirectX host plugins. I use Ozone 3 which among other things, levels volume. Besides the library, it is the best capability of MC for me.

Some that may do what you are looking for are:

http://www.directxfiles.com/manufacturers/cakewalk_fx1.htm

http://www.directxfiles.com/manufacturers/richy_comp.htm

http://www.directxfiles.com/manufacturers/steinberg_loudness.htm

http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/media/ozone.html
That is a link to their media player plugin. It is for Winamp, but I recall that it used to work in MC. There is a trial download, so you can see if it is working easily enough.

I have the full version which certainly works well in MC.

http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/ozone/

[lockeness]

Thanks for the detailed response.  I'm going to download ozone and play with it, just because it looks cool.

So one final clarification:

- I have all of my files in mp3 format
- I have run MC's audio analysis against every file to determine replay gain
- I am trying to use MC's replay gain function to normalize volume
- When I download to my ipod, I am applying the replay gain to the files

I should:

- download MP3Gain
- Analyze all of my files with MP3Gain
- Not use MC's replay gain feature

Correct?

Thanks again

[modelmaker]

I believe your last point is incorrect. In order for volume leveling to work Replay Gain has to be enabled.

Replay gain works relative to other tracks in a playlist.



Edit: Sorry, missed the MP3Gain part.

[GHammer]

I should:

- download MP3Gain
- Analyze all of my files with MP3Gain
- Not use MC's replay gain feature

If you have used MP3Gain on all files there is nothing to be gained by using the replay gain feature. Any player, software or hardware, will use the gain set by MP3Gain.

If you use a DirectX plugin there is nothing to be gained by it either.

If you use only a DirectX plugin the volume will only be corrected when playing on your computer. Transferring to any other device will not change the files.

So, while I like the Ozone plugin for many reasons, you still need to run MP3Gain on all MP3 files so they are leveled for playback anywhere.

And, you need to pay attention to how MP3Gain works. If you listen to entire albums use MP3Gain in album mode.

Track mode volume-corrects a mix of unrelated songs to a selected level. MP3Gain calculates the volume level for each song individually. It then corrects each song to make its volume level match the Target Volume.
For example, if you have 3 songs that have volume levels of 86, 91 and 89 dB and you use Track Gain to convert them to a Target Volume of 92 dB, they will all be at approximately 92 dB.

Album mode volume-corrects a collection of related songs (as they would appear on a CD, or "album") relative to other collections of songs. Applying Album gain is like adjusting the volume knob once for each CD you put in your CD player. The overall volume of the album is adjusted to the Target Volume, but the volume differences between the mp3s in the album are preserved.

For example, if you have 3 songs that have volume levels of 86, 91 and 89 dB, then the overall volume of this "album" will probably be around 89 dB. If the Target Volume is set to 92 dB, then when you apply Album Gain MP3Gain will increase the volume of each of these songs by +3 dB.

With Album mode, you want some songs to be noticeably quieter than other songs, just like they are on an album. If you're playing a classical CD, you expect the track with the flute solo to be quieter than the track with the big full-orchestra finale. Album mode allows you to correct an entire album while keeping each song's volume level relative to the other songs.

[hit_ny]

Here's the thing that rubs me a bit.

You need to know ahead of time whether youa re going to play tracks from a random selection, in which case MCs replay gain is to be used.

If you play a track from an album then its Album Gain that needs to be used.

I decided to use MC's replay gain for both, it seems like the only easy compromise that works in both modes.

How do people use Replay gain in the above 2 situations.

[GHammer]

Well, that is why I went to a different method.

I keep most music in APE format and transcode to MP3 for portable use. When I do that I dump them through MP3Gain.

But on my system I just let Ozone take care of volume.

Plus, it is a rare occasion I listen to an entire album, so track gain is fine with me.

[GHammer]

Out of curiousity, I transcoded 3 selections from a single album.
I set MCs Replay Gain for Album based mode.
I analyzed the 3 MP3 files.

Looking at the file properties, I see only a single replay gain number.
How is MC going to differ on album or track mode if there is a single measurement written to the files?

[Steef_V.]

This "in-depth" conversation is certainly useful, but don't we miss the most important thing (as AlexB wrote earlier in this chain):

I also think that you must use "Automatic based on current playlist" adjustment instead of fixed.

I myself have many MP3's - coming from various sources - and I never experience a "too low" or "too high" sound level. My replay gain is "track based" and "automatic".

[hit_ny]

Out of curiousity, I transcoded 3 selections from a single album.
I set MCs Replay Gain for Album based mode.
I analyzed the 3 MP3 files.

Looking at the file properties, I see only a single replay gain number.
How is MC going to differ on album or track mode if there is a single measurement written to the files?

That's the point, it isn't,  MC will use whatever value obtained from analysis.

So if you analyse with album gain its only relevant if you play full albums. But if you use random selection then the album gain calculated will not be appropriate.

Vice versa if you analyse with track gain, and want to play an album. Then all the tracks will have similar loudness when its really album gain that should be used.

Unless i'm missing something here.

[GHammer]

That's the point, it isn't,  MC will use whatever value obtained from analysis.

So if you analyse with album gain its only relevant if you play full albums. But if you use random selection then the album gain calculated will not be appropriate.

Vice versa if you analyse with track gain, and want to play an album. Then all the tracks will have similar loudness when its really album gain that should be used.

Unless i'm missing something here.

I'll just stick with my method, thanks!

But if you want to use replay gain then I guess you know your listening habits well. If you normally listen to full albums or if you mostly listen to this and that. I'm a this and that guy myself, so I'd choose track mode.

[hit_ny]

Why should it be this or that ?  Why not both ?

I listen to albums just as much as i do random tracks.

For the moment, i use track gain, as its the only option.  I suppose my genre of music does not have too much of a volume diff between tracks so it does not bother me too much.

I wish there was a way for MC to tell whether an album or random tracks were being played and adjust accordingly.

[GHammer]

Why should it be this or that ?  Why not both ?

I listen to albums just as much as i do random tracks.

For the moment, i use track gain, as its the only option.  I suppose my genre of music does not have too much of a volume diff between tracks so it does not bother me too much.

I wish there was a way for MC to tell whether an album or random tracks were being played and adjust accordingly.

What if I had queued up several full albums in APE format? They'd look like a number of long selections.

There is a good tool to tell what you're doing though. It sits in front of the computer when starting to play music. Go to the DSP center and change the mode.

But with a single replay gain value in the library, it isn't going to sound any different. Or at least it shouldn't sound any different. I'd think for this to be useful it should contain something like this for each selection:

replaygain_track_gain = -0.48 dB
replaygain_track_peak = 0.679779
replaygain_album_gain = -3.68 dB
replaygain_album_peak = 0.968200

[Alex B]

I switched to Album Gain (MC11) several months ago and I have not touched it since. It seems to work quite well also with various playlists. If I am listening to a low volume level ballad from one album I still want it to be low volume level ballad even the next high volume level rock track comes from another album.

I may need to temporally change to track based replay gain if I like to play background music at low volume levels. Though, usually I rather listen to radio or even enjoy the silence instead of downgrading music to background noise.


By the way, MC11 has items like this:

Peak Level: 0,95972
Intensity: 2
Replay Gain: -9,0177700000000005
Album Gain: -8,5298898870294746

[GHammer]

I switched to Album Gain (MC11) several months ago and I have not touched it since. It seems to work quite well also with various playlists. If I am listening to a low volume level ballad from one album I still want it to be low volume level ballad even the next high volume level rock track comes from another album.

I may need to temporally change to track based replay gain if I like to play background music at low volume levels. Though, usually I rather listen to radio or even enjoy the silence instead of downgrading music to background noise.


By the way, MC11 has items like this:

Peak Level: 0,95972
Intensity: 2
Replay Gain: -9,0177700000000005
Album Gain: -8,5298898870294746

I just tried that last night with .162 and get only a single number as I posted above.

[GHammer]

By the way, MC11 has items like this:

Peak Level: 0,95972
Intensity: 2
Replay Gain: -9,0177700000000005
Album Gain: -8,5298898870294746

I just converted an APE to MP3. I did not use MC to do it because I wanted a 'new' file. You know, nothing in the library to confuse things.

I open MC and clear Playing Now.
I dropped the MP3 file onto Playing Now and it is recognized and plays just fine.
I have MC replay gain enabled for album mode and set for automatic adjustment.

Highlight the file and choose 'File Type Info.
This is the result:
MPEG-1 Layer 3
258 Kbit VBR
44.1 Khz Joint stereo

Copyrighted: No
Original: Yes
Protected by CRC: No

ID3v1 Tag: (128 bytes)
   Name: You Shook Me All Night Long
   Artist: AC/DC
   Album: Back in Black
   Year: 1980
   Comment: Enjoy The Music!
   Track #: 7
   Genre: Rock (17)

ID3v2 Tag: (872 bytes)
  TRCK (Track number/Position ..): 07
  TPE1 (Lead performer(s)/Solo..): AC/DC
  TALB (Album/Movie/Show title): Back in Black
  TIT2 (Title/songname/content..): You Shook Me All Night Long
  TYER (Year): 1980
  TCON (Content type): Rock
  COMM (Comments): Enjoy The Music!
  TCOM (Composer): Johnson/Young/Young
  TXXX (Tones): <too large to display>
  TXXX (Styles): Hard Rock,Heavy Metal,Arena Rock,Album Rock,Aussie Rock
  TXXX (Cover Art (front)): D:\Documents and Settings\GH\My Documents\My Music\ACDC\Back in Black\Folder.jpg

Ok, looks right to me, all tags are in place, etc.

Now I analyze the file and it completes normally. I shutdown MC then start it again.

Highlight the file and get File Type Info. This is what is listed:

MPEG-1 Layer 3
258 Kbit VBR
44.1 Khz Joint stereo

Copyrighted: No
Original: Yes
Protected by CRC: No

ID3v1 Tag: (128 bytes)
   Name: You Shook Me All Night Long
   Artist: AC/DC
   Album: Back in Black
   Year: 1980
   Comment: Enjoy The Music!
   Track #: 7
   Genre: Rock (17)

ID3v2 Tag: (2920 bytes)
  TXXX (Tones): <too large to display>
  TXXX (Styles): Hard Rock,Heavy Metal,Arena Rock,Album Rock,Aussie Rock
  TXXX (Cover Art (front)): D:\Documents and Settings\GH\My Documents\My Music\ACDC\Back in Black\Folder.jpg
  TCOM (Composer): Johnson/Young/Young
  TRCK (Track number/Position ..): 7
  TPE1 (Lead performer(s)/Solo..): AC/DC
  TBPM (BPM (beats per minute)): 126
  TALB (Album/Movie/Show title): Back in Black
  TIT2 (Title/songname/content..): You Shook Me All Night Long
  TCON (Content type): Rock
  TYER (Year): 1980
  COMM (Comments): Enjoy The Music!
  COMM (Tool Name): Media Center
  COMM (Tool Version): 11.0.162
  COMM (Replay Gain): -14.889010000000001
  COMM (Peak Level): 1
  COMM (Intensity): 4

So, either the File Type Info tool does not display correctly or Analyze is not adding Track and Album values.

[Alex B]

Oh sorry, I should have mentioned that visibility and writing to physical file tags are optional.

Analyzing works as before, so there is no need to reanalyze. MC11 calculates Album Gain internally on the fly whenever an audio file is analyzed and has the Album tag. If the album has more audio tracks they are taken into account. E.g. if one of the album tracks gets deleted all other tracks are adjusted immediately.

[Alex B]

Actually, there is never need to write MC's album gain to the file tags since it is calculated and updated dynamically, but if the option is selected ID3 tags look like this:

MPEG-1 Layer 3
260 Kbit VBR
44,1 Khz Joint stereo

Copyrighted: No
Original: Yes
Protected by CRC: No

ID3v1 Tag: (128 bytes)
   Name: You Shook Me All Night Long
   Artist: AC/DC
   Album: Back In Black (Remastered)
   Year: 1980
   Comment: Remastered 2003
   Track #: 7
   Genre: Rock (17)

ID3v2 Tag: (1973 bytes)
  TRCK (Track number/Position ..): 7
  TPE1 (Lead performer(s)/Solo..): AC/DC
  TBPM (BPM (beats per minute)): 127
  TALB (Album/Movie/Show title): Back In Black (Remastered)
  TIT2 (Title/songname/content..): You Shook Me All Night Long
  TCON (Content type): Rock
  TYER (Year): 1980
  COMM (Comments): Remastered 2003
  COMM (Tool Name): Media Center
  COMM (Tool Version): 11.0.149
  COMM (Replay Gain): -14,903230000000001
  COMM (Peak Level): 1
  COMM (Encoder): EACsec_LAME3903ape
  COMM (Album Gain): -14,903229713439941
  COMM (Intensity): 4

[GHammer]

Sorry, it does not do Album Gain here with any options set.
Until the other day I never used RG on my system because I prefer a different method. But to try to understand a problem someone else had, I gave it a try.
So, maybe it's my system, maybe there have been some changes between the time you set the option and .162. In any case, if it is not working by selecting Album based, then the idea needs a second look as to how it is used.

Here's what I get: