Topic: Ogg Vorbis versus LAME VBR (Read 4780 times)

LeoH · « **on:** October 16, 2002, 09:59:52 am »

I am seeking the knee of the quality curve for archival quality encoding of CD's to an MJ database. I do not seek absolute quality (I still have a library of the original CD's) but I do not want compromised sound quality even for non-critical listening.

Anyone wish to opine on the quality differences, if any, between Vorbis in high quality mode (-q 7 or greater) and LAME in VBR mode, also in a high quality mode.

At high quality settings, when both encoders are set to generate approximately the same file size, I cannot distinquish between them. Monitor speakers are Mackie HR824's driven by an external d-to-a.

I would be perfectly happy to just use Vorbis but it limits playback options. Am I just going deaf in my old age?

xen-uno · « **Reply #1 on:** October 16, 2002, 11:06:26 am »

For your MP3 encoding I assume your using --alt -preset standard (or extreme), which are is good as the MP3 format can get.

To be perfectly honest (as far as sound quality is concerned), a high bit rate MP3 is comparable to a high bit rate Ogg which is comparable to a high bit rate MPC.

Your ears are fine cause I know mine are.

People that think they can hear a big difference between any of the 3 also think that silver sounds better than copper, Fords are better than Chevys, and that all pacifist's are non-violent

I do all Ogg encoding at -q 8 and MP3 at --alt -preset standard.

Xenno

LeoH · « **Reply #2 on:** October 16, 2002, 11:28:13 am »

Xenno,

Thanks for reaffirming my non-deafness. As for the MP3 settings, I have been using an custom settings line in the MJ8 derived from the RazorLame app: -b160 -m s -h -V 0 -B 320. I have used many variations. It seems "lame" of me (so to speak) to not have used the settings you recommend but when examining output in Cooledit Pro's spectrum analyzer, the low-pass filtering above 16k Hz that the MP3 VBR default settings impossed was agressive and looked undesirable, though maybe inaudible. The settings I used from RazorLame turned off lowpass filtering. Any thoughts?

BTW-I think oxygen-free copper wire sounds better than silver especially when used with CD's painted green on their edges.

Chico · « **Reply #3 on:** October 16, 2002, 11:44:44 am »

Quote

Xenno,
BTW-I think oxygen-free copper wire sounds better than silver especially when used with CD's painted green on their edges.

I agree, especially with berilium copper, gold plated terminations!

rocketsauce · « **Reply #4 on:** October 16, 2002, 12:00:30 pm »

The main reasons for using --alt-preset standard with Lame is that it accesses many code-level "tweaks" that are unavailable using the normal command line switches. Also, the -alt-presets have undergone a lot of sound quality listening tests and --alt-preset standard is meant to be pretty much transparent on almost any sample you throw at it.

I've been encoding my OGGs at higher bitrates, -q7 or 8, and they sound great. However, most of the sound quality tuning has been concentrated on encoding for lower bitrates. Apparently there is still much tuning to be done for high bitrate encoding. Then, there are those that say the quality gain is negligble at anything higher than -q6.

Also, check out http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?s=7bf3dad29b43a590d3c5b06b4aa7c3c5&act=portal

xen-uno · « **Reply #5 on:** October 16, 2002, 01:07:54 pm »

>>the low-pass filtering above 16k Hz that the MP3 VBR default settings impossed was agressive and looked undesirable

Yes, I've seen that mentioned by LAME (3.92) when encoding (although it states it starts at ~ 18 kHz). I don't think there's a problem because the attenuation of higher freq's is applied smoothly (that is to say, a non "brickwall" or non "chop" filter).

>>"I think oxygen-free copper wire sounds better" & "I agree, especially with berilium copper, gold plated terminations!"

Those pesky oxygen atoms aren't too bad if you give them room to play, so I've been thinking of using welding cable (~1/2" or 12mm in diam). also eliminates the need for beryllium. Problem is putting banana plugs on the ends

Xenno

LeoH · « **Reply #6 on:** October 16, 2002, 04:30:24 pm »

Thanks to all for the valuable input. This saved me much time. I hope this wasn't just an RTFM thread.

As for the high-end audio industry, some believe the devotees who insist on oxygen-free copper have oxygen-free brains. Although, I must admit a friend of mine has a serious high-end system (well north of $50k, not counting room treatments) that is positively stunning.

I have A/B'd MP3's vs the original CD's on his system and it is never ambiguous which is which even at highest MP3 (or Vorbis) encoding quality though the differences are sometimes surprisingly subtle.

It takes much time, effort and $$$ to create such a system but when you experience truly well done high-end audio, you know you're not in Kansas anymore.

Thanks again for the advise.

zevele10 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 18, 2002, 07:00:24 am »

>>"I think oxygen-free copper wire sounds better" & "I agree, especially with berilium copper, gold plated terminations!"

Those pesky oxygen atoms aren't too bad if you give them room to play, so I've been thinking of using welding cable (~1/2" or 12mm in diam). also eliminates the need for beryllium. Problem is putting banana plugs on the ends

Can you translate it to me?You are speaking about wire amp to speakers?

xen-uno · « **Reply #8 on:** October 18, 2002, 07:03:53 am »

Yes - amp to speakers

Welding cable is copper, BTW

Xenno

Charlemagne 8 · « **Reply #9 on:** October 18, 2002, 05:14:57 pm »

Quote

Fords are better than Chevys

Yes they are.

sekim · « **Reply #10 on:** October 18, 2002, 05:46:00 pm »

This business with cables cracks me up. I still, for the life of me, cannot figure out how an oxygen molecule can interfere with an electron travelling on the exterior of a copper cable. Any real insight to this?

And for measure, there have been tests that showed single stranded wire put out the same exact signal on an oscillscope as OFC. Must be the pacifier syndrome - I got wire that cost $$$$$ per foot. Must mean everything is gonna be better. ? ? ?

Charlemagne 8 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 18, 2002, 05:52:36 pm »

MH,

Right-as-usual Machine Head. It's kind of like the big debate over sound quality and encoding. If you THINK it sounds better, then it DOES sound better to you.
Purely subjective. Whatever helps, helps.

CVIII

BTW> I THINK Fords are better than Chevy's so they are to me.

phelt · « **Reply #12 on:** October 18, 2002, 06:16:20 pm »

for MP3's encoded with LAME, --alt-preset insane is the 'top end' IIRC.

sekim · « **Reply #13 on:** October 18, 2002, 06:16:27 pm »

I kind of like the sound of an old transistor radio myself. Mono of course.

As for the great vehicle debate...I hate 'em all. They just nickel and dime you to death, and cost way to much for something that is just a homing beacon for deer. It's deer dodging season around here again. Little buggers were right outside the door this morning when I started the truck. I could see it in their eyes, 'I'm a gonna give you a vapor lock someday by jumping out in front of you'.

'While you taking a sip of that hot coffee'. Just what I need....

Probably set the airbag off at the same time shoving a 20 oz. coffee mug into my nose.

Charlemagne 8 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 18, 2002, 06:21:44 pm »

Rural life. Ain't it grand?

xen-uno · « **Reply #15 on:** October 18, 2002, 10:09:26 pm »

Machine>I still, for the life of me, cannot figure out how an oxygen molecule can interfere with an electron travelling on the exterior of a copper cable.

Mainly because Oxygen is second only to Fluorine in electronegativity (translation: Oxygen really, really likes electrons, and once it has them (from other elements or another oxy atom), it holds them tight). When it forms compounds with (very conductive) Copper or Silver, the normally free ranging electrons are now locked down by the oxide compound. The compound becomes a semi conductor (or worse: an insulator) that the electrons have to go around (or thru).

So....... Oxygen and other atomic "impurities" introduce electrical "breaks" and high resistance areas on the surface (and interior) of the conductor that interrupt the smooth "handoff" of electrons from atom to atom. Net effect is increased electrical resistance.

For speaker cable, resistance is the only thing that counts. It's a balancing act between material, gauge, run length, and acceptable signal attenuation (loss). I scoff at Monster and others as they talk about things like "phase coherance" - pure baloney. I could make wires out of water filled flexible plastic pipe that would be indistinguishable in sound quality (but probably not in appearance) from their "top of the line" cabling. Also, my "wires" could water the grapefruit & avocado plants I've got going. Can theirs?

Xenno

zevele10 · « **Reply #16 on:** October 19, 2002, 01:47:13 am »

MachineHead.

I did put cables or coppers.
Not the top ones,not the cheaper ones.Aain the 'average 'ones

The result? AMAZING

Few weeks ago,a friend brought a second hand stereo system.Even with the cheap one-that you find at ACE- we got a incredible improvement.

To be on xen-uno side:
As i said many times on this forum,i know people with "million $ stereo system".They speak night and day about they gear,but THEY NEVER SPEAK ABOUT THE MUSIC THEY PLAY ON IT

NOW:
How do you deal with OGG if you want to put music on your MP3 player or if you have a discman paying cds mp3 encoded?
Transcoding? Does not look like the answer in my opinion.

sekim · « **Reply #17 on:** October 19, 2002, 03:58:51 am »

Xenno,

Great explanation. However, I'll bet if you took your speakers apart and looked at the miniscule copper wires that run from the terminals on the actual speaker to the magnets, that there is no OFC copper there. In fact, unless they are extremly advanced pieces, the wires are probably bare. Exposed to all elements, including oxygen. This is what makes a person somewhat skeptical to ads claims of superiority.

Higher strand count wire would probably be of more use to most then OFC. Reason, gives the electrons more routes if they encounter resistance. This I have some experience with. I used to race slot cars years ago. Not the toys you find in Walmart. $200.00, 40 -70 mph electric motor screamers that make you wonder how they go so fast. Anyway, the brushes (track contacts)are made of stranded copper wire. There was a noticable difference between low count and high count brushes. Come race night, you wanted the highest you could get your hands on. Obviously not OFC, but the point is there was less resistance with the higher count brushes.

But it may be a moot point. If someone believes they get better transmission with one over the other. So be it.

Slot car manufacturer of high end equipment.

Charlemagne 8 · « **Reply #18 on:** October 19, 2002, 05:02:36 pm »

Quote

If someone believes they get better transmission with one over the other. So be it.

Righ-as-usual, MachineHead

I never raced officially - never could afford to beat those that could buy all the best gizmos - but there were slot car tracks in every mall around here when I was about 16 or so. The tracks (each store had several) went from small to very large. It was great. I still have my car.

CVIII

zevele10 · « **Reply #19 on:** October 20, 2002, 06:07:43 am »

How do you deal with OGG if you want to put music on your MP3 player or if you have a discman playing cds mp3 encoded?
Transcoding? Does not look like the best answer in my opinion

xen-uno · « **Reply #20 on:** October 20, 2002, 08:24:42 am »

>>How do you deal with OGG if you want to put music on your MP3 player....

U rip then encode to both Ogg & MP3 formats (no transcoding). Then u wait (patiently

) until iRiver releases Ogg supporting firmware update for the SlimX line. Then u start cranking out the Ogg only encodes.

Xenno

zevele10 · « **Reply #21 on:** October 20, 2002, 08:43:33 am »

This is the problem.All my family and friends in France have discman cd\mp3,i have also a discman and a DVD reading MP3[in the bedroom for music in bed].
To do two encoding is quitte a task.
If not for this problem i will go for ONLY OGG

PS: transcoding IS A PLAGUE

SlimX ,you mean the IRiver one? I do not see anything about OGG on they site

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Author Topic: Ogg Vorbis versus LAME VBR (Read 4780 times)

zevele10

sekim

phelt

sekim

zevele10

sekim

zevele10

zevele10