Topic: Old recordings (Read 4895 times)

NickM · « **on:** July 16, 2005, 12:56:12 pm »

I thought I would record some old family 78's (before the last record player in the house gets thrown away). Has anyone used software to clean up and improve old recordings? These are mostly Mono 78 cut around 1930.
nick

NickM · « **Reply #1 on:** July 16, 2005, 01:52:03 pm »

For those of us at a fairly youg age, "La Vie En Rose" just about stirris the grey cells for somethings from Grace Jones. I have just found a French 30's recording under Disque Supreme performed by Tohama that puts Ms Jones to shame. I really do need to improve the audio quality of these old gems.
nick

lee269 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 16, 2005, 01:57:02 pm »

Ive used Cool Edit (now Adobe Audition) with good results in the past. However this all-in software is pretty powerful and relatively expensive. There are plenty of other solutions out there which I think are cheaper and more automated, and Im sure you'll get other recommendations.

One thing I do remember is that recording and cleaning from 78s is different to that for more recent 33 1/3 LPs, although I have no experience in this, or any particular sound recording expertise. I think a lot was due to people not having the hardware and having to record at 45rpm and then correct. If you have a suitable 78rpm turntable and cartridge that you can hook up to your PC then this all might be irrelevant.

I suggest you do a bit of googling on this. You might start on the Audition user forum, where a search for '78' brought me up a few (fairly technical) posts about this.

Sorry this might not be much help. Its just that the '78' thing rang a few bells with me.

[EDIT: from your second post it may be that you aleady have the recordings on your PC, in which case forget all above. Audition will still do a great job, if its not a sledgehammer to crack a nut]

NickM · « **Reply #3 on:** July 16, 2005, 02:13:15 pm »

Hhhmmm. Yes, I bought a startlingly expensive deck that could play 78's. This purchase, in the 80's, probably cost more than all the various Cd's I have subsequently bought. Capture is not a problem!

In the depths of my fast receeding memory, I seem to recall a very specific piece of softare that would remove all the hiss and crackles from old recordings. That's what I am after.... I did look at Audition, but did not see this feature. Maybe looking in the wrong place.

nick

Alex B · « **Reply #4 on:** July 16, 2005, 02:37:05 pm »

Probably you already know also this, but it is essential that you have correct stylus for the 78 rpm records. The stylus tip is about three times larger and also the tracking force should be more (depending on the tone arm & cartridge combination used).

Grado is one of the few manufacturers that make high quality 78 rpm cartridges.

Here is a tutorial for converting analog records to digital format: http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/1/1. I have not read through it, but it seems to be quite comprehensive.

I have used Algorithmix Sound Laundry for cleaning my vinyl recordings.

Krazykanuck · « **Reply #5 on:** July 16, 2005, 02:41:57 pm »

If you use Nero the Nero Wave Editor program contains various filters and effects for removing hiss, clicks rumble etc. I have used it quite a bit for tapes and 33 1/3 LPs.
Roxio has disk doctor but I haven't used it in a long time so I'm not sure how good it is now. Back when I first tried it the result weren't that great.

modelmaker · « **Reply #6 on:** July 16, 2005, 02:42:25 pm »

The product that I have been using for about 3 years now for recording my LP collection Is MAGIX AudioCleaningLab: http://site.magix.net/index.php?471

I originally baught the CDROM, but they now have a downloadable version available for about $30.

It has just about everything you could want: Hiss and hum filtering (all adjustable), very effective scratch removal, EQ, speed & pitch control, echo & reverb and very easy editing and track splitting.

The interface is very intuitive. The recording is displayed as a spectro graph.

I have recorded over 1500 LPs, a couple of hundred 45s and a handful of 78s.

You can make CDs directly or use their mp3 converter (Frauenhofer), but you have to pay an upgrade fee for unlimited mp3 converting, I just export the wav files and use MC to do the converting (and automatically import the files into MC).

I don't work for the company, but do highly recomend the program. If you do get it, you can pm me and I'll be happy to share some useful hints and shortcuts.

Jay.

Edit: Alex is right about the stylus. You could check to see if there is a 78 stylus for the cartridge you already have. (Try RadioShack).

Alex B · « **Reply #7 on:** July 16, 2005, 03:21:51 pm »

Quote from: modelmaker on July 16, 2005, 02:42:25 pm

I have recorded over 1500 LPs, a couple of hundred 45s and a handful of 78s.

That is an incredible amount of work. Only the LPs must have needed over 1000 hours of plain recording time. How many years it took?

BullishDad · « **Reply #8 on:** July 16, 2005, 04:12:04 pm »

Another program that may be worth looking at is Microsoft Plus! Digital Media Edition. This $20 program consists of a few utilities, one of which is Plus! Analog Recorder. It uses some of the same Cool Edit technology that is part of the much more expensive Adobe Audition.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/plus/dme/dmehome.asp

The downside is that is only creates WMA files, you can't record directly to WAV. It does clean up hiss and clicks, so the resulting file sounds pretty good, and the program is fairly easy to use.

modelmaker · « **Reply #9 on:** July 16, 2005, 04:18:11 pm »

Quote

How many years it took?

It's been about 4.5 years since I started. About 3 yrs ago I switched to aclab which speeded up the process.

80% of the albums were in near pristine condition, so I was able to determine settings that were good for those and just repeat them as each album was recorded. Time-wise, it took the duration of the album plus about 10 minutes for aclab to add the filtering etc and export the wav file.

For the rest, time can vary from15-20 mins to an hour for a really bad record where I might have to actually cut out deep scratches or pops altogether, or do other editing.

The recording setup and computer are in a little room next to my modeling workshop (about 10 steps away) where I spend 10 to 12 hours a day (I work in my home). I have a CRT, TV monitor, wireless keyboard/mouse and a pretty good surround sound system in the workshop. I figure if I'm going to spend most of my time in here my ears were not going to suffer from a cheap sound system.

The rest of the house I had already wired for sound and video long before I got a computer and is fed from the line out of the shop reciever. My ATI RW, MC and IR extenders (for the reciever) allow me to control just about everything from anywhere in the house.

PS: I am also single with no children to interfere with my time!

NickM · « **Reply #10 on:** July 16, 2005, 04:41:37 pm »

Now, I thought my post would attract little attention!!!
Jay, I am flaberghasted - what a huge task. I thought I was diligent in going through a couple of thousand CD's but 1,000 LP's is a lifetime achievement. Well Done.

I got the software from Magix and have been playing around with a couple of test files. I am going from something that sounds like a 30's novelty recording to something that is half acceptable. Thank you.

Alex, I looked at Algorithmix but Magix looks more comprehensive. I will report later! Maybe even post a link to "before" and "after".

nick

modelmaker · « **Reply #11 on:** July 16, 2005, 05:44:45 pm »

I only have 6000 LPs to go!

NickM · « **Reply #12 on:** July 16, 2005, 05:55:45 pm »

How on earth did you accumulate 7,000 LP's?

nick

modelmaker · « **Reply #13 on:** July 16, 2005, 06:04:35 pm »

I used to work in the audio biz, Among other companies, I was a tech-rep for JVC for a long time & they gave me a monthly allowance to buy music for demo purposes. I used to buy 800-1000 LPs a year and I worked for them for 15 years. You do the math.

I got rid of about half over the years, I even paid rent and lived off the sales for a couple years back in the 80s!

antolod · « **Reply #14 on:** July 16, 2005, 07:49:36 pm »

I have transfered a few of my LP's using a program called Wave Corrector. It is fairly automatic lthough I usually tweek the track breaks. It seems to do a decent job. I have about 400 more to transfer if I ever take the time to do it.

You can d/l it and try it out for free (limited functionality) and register for $45

You can find it here: http://www.wavecor.co.uk/

Hope this helps.

modelmaker · « **Reply #15 on:** July 16, 2005, 07:59:10 pm »

Magix' AudioCleaningLab is only $30 and is a much more sophisticated program.

sirshambling · « **Reply #16 on:** July 17, 2005, 01:26:49 am »

Like others I'm involed in transferring my collection of vinyl to my PC. Over the last 5 years I've tried a lot of software thart claims to clean up the crackles/hiss etc.

The one that those who are really into 78s use is Diamond Cut which you can find here www.diamondcut.com/ this firm not only does a lot of forensic work but also reissue recordings from the 20s/30s they've cleaned up - they even restore Edison recordings and cylinders!! It's expensive software but there are a lot of presets that mention 78s - the only ones I've ever seen - and the experts on the forum include a lot of people who have done just what you intend to do.

Good luck with your project. You may find as I've done that it becomes a labour of real love - listening to pieces of music you haven't heard in years and enjoying them as though they're new purchases. I calcualte that I'm going to spend another 4 years doing this at my present rate to go through all 25,000 LPs and 45s I've got.

John

Krazykanuck · « **Reply #17 on:** July 17, 2005, 09:33:14 am »

I have been using the algorec utility that came with my DMX6fire to record LP's since it has a built in RIAA filter that works in conjunction with the card. Most of the programs that I have seen don't include this filter so I record with algorec and clean up with another app.
How are people applying the RIAA curve with these other programs?

sirshambling · « **Reply #18 on:** July 17, 2005, 11:19:02 am »

I've used that soundcard as well but generally get better results using a phono pre amp from the turntable to the normal hi fi amp before routing the signal to the soundcard.

John

modelmaker · « **Reply #19 on:** July 17, 2005, 11:43:11 am »

Quote from: sirshambling on July 17, 2005, 11:19:02 am

I've used that soundcard as well but generally get better results using a phono pre amp from the turntable to the normal hi fi amp before routing the signal to the soundcard.

John

ditto. 78s were not riaa eq'd.

Krazykanuck · « **Reply #20 on:** July 17, 2005, 11:57:37 am »

So just line out on the amp to line in on the card?

modelmaker · « **Reply #21 on:** July 17, 2005, 01:03:14 pm »

Record out (as if connecting to a tape deck) to line in on the card.

musikluvr · « **Reply #22 on:** July 19, 2005, 08:37:03 am »

I play and record alot of 78's-here's hopefully some help - first make sure that your needle is correct-78s are cut on what is called a coarse groove and are equalized differently than lp's- your needle has to be shaped (truncated) at a different degree (I think its 60 not 90 like LP's) so make sure its a proper needle-otherwise you're not sitting up in the groove properly. Then get a mono equalizer and with some helpful info on setting it ( from the net)- your playback should be correct. Its correct when you hear no static and and correct sound- 78's are recorded with a higher treble so when played back the surface noise is virtually eliminated, but the sound technology is virtually as good as today's- Once you do that- you should be able to plug right into your computer and record and get in most cases LP or CD quality sound without remixing/editing.

PS wash them first in a mild soap solution with a velvet cloth-dont use alcohol it will eat the shellac surface and make sure they are good and dry before you play them. In most cases the record is in better shape than you think.

Hope it helps bud--Good Luck and Happy Listeneing

musikluvr · « **Reply #23 on:** July 19, 2005, 09:12:04 am »

ps if that helps it will tell you something about your arm weight as well-all records have what is called a "sweet spot"- that the place on the groove wall where the sound is optimal with the least amount of distortion. This is where you want the needle to ride, so adjust your needle weight until you hear this spot- If your needle is too heavy you will get a very dull, heavy sound-if your needle is too light you will hear distortion and noise. so just play with your adjuster until you hear sound that is correct. You will know when that is. Again hope it helps:)

KingSparta · « **Reply #24 on:** July 19, 2005, 11:26:36 am »

I Have Many Old Record And Radio Recordings

Over 100,000 And Counting...

1900 to 2005

Listening to: 'At The Madhattan Room' from '1937-10-13 (Xxxx)' by 'Benny Goodman' on Media Center 11

brossmac · « **Reply #25 on:** July 22, 2005, 11:21:35 pm »

Wow! Glad to see so many others who do what I do.

You can hear some of my work at http://www.falalalala.com.

Tab · « **Reply #26 on:** July 23, 2005, 07:25:28 pm »

Looks like theres not much left for me to add...

I would pick a robust cartridge, I wouldnt use the very lightweight things that were in fashion at the end of the LP era. 78s use much higher recording level, putting a lot more stress on pickups, and high speed off centre records apply more stress than slower ones. Shure and Stanton spring to mind as being good quality and tough with it.

Typical tracking forces are around double compared to 33s, so a 2g pickup might like around 4g. Mechanical players used something like 1 oz tracking force, giving record life of around 50 plays, and needle life of one track.

78s were recorded with no eq, so putting them through an RIAA preamp will always give the wrong spectral balance. But in all honesty the frequency response of these recordings was so hit and miss that it doesnt matter, just adjust graphic eq until it sounds good.

Finally an online search might be easier than ripping, as there are others who've put plenty of time in and done the job already. And of course a few tracks came out on both 78 and 45.

FWIW some 78s have been turned into genuine stereo recordings. Early mechanical recorders were typically used in pairs, one on the left of the stage, one on the right, because of low reliability. If you can get both versions of the record, and in some cases you can, and can then sync them together you can get real stereo. Its probably a hopeless amount of work, but I know its been done professionally.

For 78 diehards, its not too hard to make your own 78s using aluminium discs. Record with a steel needle, which is good one play only. Never use steel needles for playing ali records.

I saw a diagam for an answerphone in a 1930s encyclopaedia once that used 2x ali 78s, one for outgoing message, the other to record incoming. I guess the 3 seconds or so it took to get upto speed must have confused a few callers.

People that have never had 78s might not know that some early 78s were one sided, there are early ones with angels carved on the back.

Tab

Tab · « **Reply #27 on:** July 24, 2005, 06:07:34 pm »

Do you mean 80rpm? I vaguely rememer something about that.

Tab

Charlemagne 8 · « **Reply #28 on:** July 24, 2005, 06:39:37 pm »

It seems that all has been said that needs to be said about recording 78s.
I use Wave Purity.
Go see them. It has worked well for me for years. You can spend from 30 EU to 60 EU. They all work equally well. The more you spend, the more automated the process is.
The current exchange rate is 1 EU = $1.20. currency converter

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Author Topic: Old recordings (Read 4895 times)