INTERACT FORUM

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Author Topic: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Version 9???!!  (Read 13582 times)

PhatPhreddy

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 613
  • Cosmic Comic
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #50 on: September 20, 2002, 08:29:13 am »

I dont know if that was JimH or Swordsmans words above but the more I think about it the more I like the plug in price packaging...

Think of it like 'pushing' SW... First give it away cheap.. Get em hooked... Get the demand and need going... Than BAMB... Time to pay Poppa !! :D !!!

Also when faced with a desire to do something, $5 or so is like a packet of cigs (well it is in Europe anyway !!) or a burger.. .Trivial incremental... I know I am a sucker for dropping many $5 when if I was faced with a single $40 I would think again about it as a value propostion....

Listening to: 'Superfly' from 'The Ultimate Curtis Mayfield..' by 'Curtis Mayfield' on Media Jukebox
Logged
Phreddy@PhatPhreddy.net ICQ# 168975535
HTPC Front ends  

highwebl

  • Regular Member
  • Recent member
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #51 on: September 20, 2002, 11:59:19 am »

Personal Example:
I was quite happily using Winamp, I tried out Media Jukebox just because it supported DFX.  Because I liked it and it was only $25, I bought it.

Because I liked it so much, and it was only $25, I convinced 2 friends to buy it.

At $45, you would have had zero customers.
At $25 you had 3.

I have another friend that I have had on the fence for quite awhile.  I know that he will not pay $45.  

Jim.
Just as a disclaimer, I am going to buy the upgrade.  I think you are doing a great job.  I love your product.  I think $45 would be too much.

While it's true that you offer more responsive support than any company I have ever dealt with, you can be over responsive.  Minor bug fixes come in hours, I would rather see problems compiled and see a release every 2 weeks.

MJ is so rich with features that they border on being Easter eggs.  I had someone show me a function once that was so buried that I never found it again.  I learned of most of the functionality on the interact boards.  There are button and menu options that I have never used.  I have been using it for about 8 months now and I found 3 new menus this week.  

This is right and good.  You do great work, but it won't suck in new users for $45, because most of them will never come close to finding those features.  I never would have, and I think it's horrible I would have missed it.
Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72446
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #52 on: September 20, 2002, 12:07:17 pm »

highwebl,
> Minor bug fixes come in hours, I would rather see problems compiled and see a release every 2 weeks.

We put out new builds publicly about every 3 or 4 weeks.  Anything you find here on Interact is for testing.  You don't need to try it if you don't like updating often.  The build on our downloads page is always safe.

Thanks for your comments, your business, and your referral to your friends.

Jim
Logged

highwebl

  • Regular Member
  • Recent member
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2002, 12:09:25 pm »

Oh, and Jim,

You are right, as CEO it is terribly wrong to share incomplete or partial information.  I have never seen a company make the kinds of descision JRiver makes on service, support and end-user input.

Thank you for being just the way you are.
Logged

ZC

  • Regular Member
  • Recent member
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • Bite me, Moriarty!
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2002, 12:17:47 pm »

Well.. As a new user who has yet to figure HOW to pay for MJ (I don't use credit/debit cards and I'm awaiting an answer to other purchase options), I'd have to say the price of $45 seems fair for a whole suite like this, BUT for that amount I'd have to have a fully-licensed hard copy. I mean, no limits on the number of times I load or re-load it. No requirements to be online if I need to re-install the program. No hoops to jump through.

As an example, I'm a Sonic Foundry Acid user. They have the most ANNOYING process for installing their program. I have to load it, type in a serial from the manual's front page, then connect to the internet, register (no matter how many times I've registered in the past), wait for an email (and hope I typed my address correctly. I mistyped once and had to wait nearly a month for them to verify that I wasn't scamming them) and then use the link in the email to insert the key that makes the program work. That's just for the main program. EVERY plug-in requires the same process, and there are several plug-ins. All this hassle from a product I bought RETAIL. I have the discs. I have receipts saying I spent well over $100 for this program. And if I don't have an internet connection, the discs are useless. If I have to reformat my hard drive, I have to go through this crud again.

It sounds like MJ is similar in it's "protection" scheme. I'm pretty sure I came across a pirated copy, but I deleted it- and I know the trouble's out there. But making honest users go through a stringent registration process because there are dishonest people in the world is just not cool- Especially if I'm paying $45 for the product.

So like I said- For that much money, I'd need some assurance that it would be MINE to use this year, next year, and 10 years from now, without complex registration or activation. For that much money, I want to install it, plug in a Key (that will always work on my copy), and go. I'd be fine with registering every time, but I don't want any limit on the number of times I can activate.

For $29 I'd put up with the hassle-laden installation, but any more than that, and it's starting to become slightly oppressive.

DON'T go the way of Microsoft and limit my activations, or make me fret over changing my system significantly. When I pay for something, I expect it to be at my disposal whenever I need it, without it impacting OTHER things I paid for. When you limit my range of action on my PC, your program becomes a burden rather than a benefit.

That being said, the upgrade policy seems fair. I'd pay for a major upgrade- As long as it IS a MAJOR upgrade. Not just a bugfix, and a couple tweaks- New features, more stability working with tags, and other perks.

Like I said- Don't pull a Microsoft and offer us Windows 95 (which was essentially a beta), and then charge us for Windows 98 (which was really just an upgrade to the beta).  "Full Plus Version" should mean FULL PLUS version.

The program's great. It's making me regret that I spent money on MMJB, and that's quite a feat- I've been loyal to them for a long time.

-ZC
Logged

Doof

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 5908
  • Farm Animal Stupid
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2002, 12:32:30 pm »

One idea I had a while back about licensing was this:

Purchasing and registering goes the same way it did for version 7. You are issued a key that you use to unlock the program. This key contains your name, address, and CC number, just the way it used to. You are responsible for keeping this key safe. It doesn't expire. Ever. Even if JRiver goes out of business or you lose your internet connection you can still install MJ and unlock it.

If you lose this key, you can use JRiver Restore page to issue a new key, at a cost of $4.99. You are then issued a new key that is identical to the one you were given at purchase with the same rights and responsibilities as before.

This insures that you can always restore your copy of MJ, the customer doesn't have to jump through all kinds of hoops when they format their computer, and it only penalizes those people who lose their key, and even then, not as badly as before when their only way out was to purchase MJ all over again for another $24.98. And because your personal info is in the key, you're less likely to distribute it.
Logged

JasonJoel

  • Regular Member
  • Recent member
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2002, 12:57:19 pm »

I don't know what the real right answer is...

But I do know that if the licensing scheme does not change, I will either be:

a.) NOT buying MJ9 at all
- or -
b.) buying it and using a crack on my personal copy that I PAID FOR

I do not believe in, or tolerate, piracy. But I also do not believe in being potentially locked out of software I paid for and am using in accordance with the licensing agreement.

Hopefully they will get rid of this silly 'numbered install' license scheme for MJ9.

Jason Bottjen

Quote
One idea I had a while back about licensing was this:

Purchasing and registering goes the same way it did for version 7. You are issued a key that you use to unlock the program. This key contains your name, address, and CC number, just the way it used to. You are responsible for keeping this key safe. It doesn't expire. Ever. Even if JRiver goes out of business or you lose your internet connection you can still install MJ and unlock it.

If you lose this key, you can use JRiver Restore page to issue a new key, at a cost of $4.99. You are then issued a new key that is identical to the one you were given at purchase with the same rights and responsibilities as before.

This insures that you can always restore your copy of MJ, the customer doesn't have to jump through all kinds of hoops when they format their computer, and it only penalizes those people who lose their key, and even then, not as badly as before when their only way out was to purchase MJ all over again for another $24.98. And because your personal info is in the key, you're less likely to distribute it.

Logged

hvy_duty

  • Regular Member
  • Recent member
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2002, 01:02:22 pm »

JimH  Am I right if I buy 9 today it will work with the 8 I have and also with the official release when it comes out.  I have to agree with some there may have to be a lite version for $29.00 and the one with all the whistles for the $44.  I bought almost every Juke Box out there starting with data becker, realjukebox,etc. spent way more than $44 but each one had something I wanted. But then again I'm not to smart thats what my wife tells me.  King I also have a registered winzip 8.1 a program you can't do without  King are you in your rocking chair. Bye
Logged

Mysticeti

  • Regular Member
  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 224
  • music, SCUBA, movies, VR, multimedia, PCs
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2002, 01:26:40 pm »

If you're taking votes, I prefer "Light" and a "Full" version over having a bunch of a-la-carte plugins.

I think I'd feel like I was getting two-bitted to death if I had to pay $5-$10 everytime wanted a bit of new functionality above what the "Light" version provided.

Besides, I think you'd find that supporting a complex matrix of plugins is a tedious undertaking.
Logged
"And the men who hold high places. Must be the ones who start... to mold a new reality. Closer to the Heart."

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72446
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2002, 01:54:10 pm »

Quote
JimH  Am I right if I buy 9 today it will work with the 8 I have and also with the official release when it comes out.


Yes.   Hopefully, after today, 8.0 purchased to date, and 9.0 from now through release should honor each other's licenses.
Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72446
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #60 on: September 20, 2002, 01:55:52 pm »

Quote
If you're taking votes, I prefer "Light" and a "Full" version over having a bunch of a-la-carte plugins.

I think I'd feel like I was getting two-bitted to death if I had to pay $5-$10 everytime wanted a bit of new functionality above what the "Light" version provided.

Besides, I think you'd find that supporting a complex matrix of plugins is a tedious undertaking.


Amen.
Logged

10sne1

  • Regular Member
  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #61 on: September 20, 2002, 02:43:10 pm »

I purchased version 8 a few days ago after working with it for a week.  I love this program.  But now I'm a little upset.  Did I move too fast to pay?  I could have waited until after October 1st.  I like the latest and the greatest.  I will want version 9.  I don't want to spend more money for the newest upgrade so soon!  I don't mind purchasing this program but now I regret I wasn't smarter.  I saw there was a beta of version 9 out there but I assumed it would be available to me when it was ready.  Now we know the old saying....don't assume or...
Logged

Cyn

  • Regular Member
  • Recent member
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #62 on: September 20, 2002, 06:46:02 pm »


1)  This new forum setup is cool!   8)

2)  I love MJ and know from searching, researching, trying and then crying that no other MP3 juke is as all encompassingly feature rich.

3)  Jim, I don't understand this:

>>MJ Version 9.0 will be $29.98 until December 15, $44.98 after that.
It will also work with any 8.0 license bought before October 1.  8.0 licenses bought after October 1 will be upgradable for $19.98.<<  

Did you mean to say v.8 licenses bought before October 1 will be upgradeable for $19.98?  

4)  I just purchased v.8 on Aug. 5th.  Even though I love MJ and would probably pay to upgrade?  My budget squeeks as does a lot of peoples' so I think the fair thing to do would be to offer free upgrades to those who purhcased within a set time frame.  Say...at least 90 days prior to v.9 release.  Moreover, MJ is without doubt a wonderful creation.  Still even the creators of awesome apps like MJ want to attract the widest range of consumers, right?  $45 will definitely limit your buyers base to serious MP3/jukebox users &/or people with money to spare.  Most people I know can not or would not afford to pay $45 for any jukebox.  $29.95 or maybe even $34.95 would get you more customers.

6)  As for me, if there were no limits on restores and guaranteed free updates for at least one year as well as unlimited upgrades thereafter at no more than 50% of full purchase price....
I would readily pay $29.95 for MJ and tell all my friends to buy it too!!  As it is now, even this great product and pricing can not outshine the clouds cast by that cursed restore limit.

Speaking of which, Jim, in another thread we discussed that the restore policies would be changing.  How is that coming along?  I'm now down to 1 restore due to technical difficulties and I just bought MJ 46 days ago.   :'(

Logged

Doof

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 5908
  • Farm Animal Stupid
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #63 on: September 20, 2002, 06:53:42 pm »

Sounds like you're not using your restores correctly.

Each restore you use gives you a key that will work to unlock MJ for 14 days.

Besides that, MJ will work completely for free for 30 days.

So if you had to reinstall MJ, all you had to do was wait until the 30 days gave out, then do a restore. That restore is then good for another 14 days.

You don't have to restore everytime you install MJ. You just need to save the key you got from the last time you restored. And if it's still within 14 days from that date, then it's still valid.
Logged

bigcuedaddy

  • Regular Member
  • Junior Woodchuck
  • **
  • Posts: 83
  • computers are just a fad
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #64 on: September 20, 2002, 08:12:01 pm »

As long as JRiver continued support of Vers 8 as a basic media jukebox, then I wouldnt mind paying a bit more for vers 9 licenses and the extra features it promises; but to force people to annually pay $44.95 to continue to use MJ is quite hefty.
Logged

Nick_LeFave

  • Regular Member
  • Junior Woodchuck
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • MJ is the epitome of what a media player should be!
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #65 on: September 20, 2002, 10:29:36 pm »

Quote
...
Thanks for your comments, your business, and your referral to your friends.

Jim

Jim H,

I am actually HighWebl's mortal enemy, but yes he referred me to the software. ;) (Oh HighWebl, how you task me so). I switched from MMJB Plus, which I had two months before bought a boxed version for $24.95 (I also subscribed to MX radio for $4.95). The greatness of MJ was that compelling, and I didn't feel the price was stretching my budget.

Currently, I am considering giving my lovely sister MJ for Christmas, but $45.00 is a factor. I am torn over the new price increase. I like my sister, but I am a cheap bastard too. Spending $45 on me is ok, not on family (we are cheap, what can I say?).

Kidding aside, I worked for Mattel Interactive and was involved in one of their campaigns to break a certain software title. It broke very well indeed. The one thing I learned in that lesson was, even though the software was crap, they had their demographic group nailed. They knew whose was going to buy, why they were going to buy, what the buyer expected, and how much the buyer was willing to pay. They did this through focus groups drawn from their current customer base. They used online surveys, phones surveys and other methods of data gathering. So they sold many "broken" copies to many eager buyers.

I don't know if you are doing this, but, if you have millions at stake, it might be prudent to actually develop and some customer profiles.

I can't remember the analogy but it goes like this:

"You can build the most perfect ice cream store with all the flavors and treats and make money. Locate the store in Antartica and even the Penguins will laugh at you."

Let me say this, I really appreciate that you have brought this discussion to the forums. It makes my hope light tingle.

Nick LeFave
Logged

PHudson

  • Regular Member
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: RE:Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Ve
« Reply #66 on: September 20, 2002, 11:04:19 pm »

What the man said. I'm of the same view as phelt...

Quote
The major reason that I bought MJ was for the Media Library and organizational abilities. For me, most of the other features are unused.
[snip]
One thing I'm concerned about is diffusion.
[snip]
Last, the restore issue: this is my only major gripe with MJ, and the thing that keeps me from recommending it to anyone.
[snip]
Logged

duhva

  • Regular Member
  • Junior Woodchuck
  • **
  • Posts: 56
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #67 on: September 21, 2002, 04:41:06 am »

Jim - my two cents and a question

As far as price point:
I think $25 is the perfect price for the software. Had you priced it higher, I probably would have kept using the stripped down version and then other free software when I needed more functionality, such as tag editing. Keep in mind that I am not an MJ / digital music fanatic like a lot of regular posters to this forum, but I do listen to music a lot, and use software tools to digitize, organize, distribute to portable players, etc. As others have mentioned I don't need some included extras like the music server... and $25 is as much as I'm willing to pay.

As far as upgrade policy (a lot of self interest involved):
Having only read about v9 on this forum (I haven't had the time to install the beta and fool around with it), I probably have a limited understanding of its features, improvements, etc. Regardless, I think that v8 license holders should get v9 for free unless there are huge improvements in core music-based functionality. That's where my interests lie, and that's why I purchased the MJ license.

And finally, a question:
I know very little about J River's business strategy as far as MJ is cocnerned, but it seems to me that if you're looking for revenue, one stable place to find it is in the manufacturers and distributors of MP3 players and jukeboxes. That's how I came into contact with Music Match (which lasted on my hard drive for about two days). I would think that enterprise type licenses with the likes of Archos or Sonic would make mroe sense then depending on consumer licenses, considering that you do little mass marketing and your product is distributed electronically.

-duhva
Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72446
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #68 on: September 21, 2002, 05:22:07 am »

Quote
I purchased version 8 a few days ago after working with it for a week.  I love this program.  But now I'm a little upset.  Did I move too fast to pay?  I could have waited until after October 1st.  I like the latest and the greatest.  


The wording of the pricing policy (remember -- it's still a PROPOSAL/DRAFT) needs improvement, but even as it is, I think it says what we want -- if you purchase version 8 before Oct 1 (the date may move back), YOU WILL HAVE FULL USE OF VERSION 9.0 as it is released.

Buy version 8.0 now -- get version 9.0.  Exactly as you expected.  

We will cut off this offer in a few weeks because you can now buy a version 9.0 license and it will work with 8.0.

Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72446
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #69 on: September 21, 2002, 05:33:02 am »

Thanks for all the feedback!  I've learned from it.  Keep it coming.

The pricing is still in the proposal stage, so we can make changes.

In the other thread called "Which path ..." people were split about whether MJ should focus on music or should include all media.  We may end up with two products:

A lower priced product that does primarily music and a little video.

A slightly higher priced product that does everything.  Audio, video, images, TV, and DVD.

BTW, did you notice that we got TV time shifting working last week?  It's still rough but the hardest part is behind us.  There's more on this in the MJ 9 forum.  You can get there from Home above.

Again, a big thanks!  You're a great help.




Logged

dobon

  • Regular Member
  • Junior Woodchuck
  • **
  • Posts: 84
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #70 on: September 21, 2002, 06:36:03 am »

How do I know if my license is for v7 or v8? I bought it while v8 was in beta. I think it is a v8 license. In that case you plan to give me a free upgrade to v9?  I think that would be extremely generous. I would have guessed something like $20 for an upgrade and $30 for a new license. I would have paid the 45 also if I had to. MJ is no doubt the best piece of software on my my computer. Thanks.
Logged

Jazzwolf

  • Regular Member
  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 107
  • Jazz, Classic Rock, Classic 70's NY Salsa
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #71 on: September 21, 2002, 07:00:50 am »

OK, my 2 cents: As I type this I am listening to MJ right now and I have it on anytime I sit at the computer. I don't have it hooked up to my stereo, I don't have it hooked up to a remote, I don't have it fetching a beer for me (I'm waiting for the version 9 plugin). I just use it when I am at my computer or when I decide to burn a CD.. light stuff that I did with Ver 7. That being said, I realize that I CANNOT do without it. I believe that the upgrade price is fair and no I don't have money to throw around. The support that I have received in this forum for ANY problem has justified my paying for this program. I really believe I got a great bargain and I feel guilty because I think I robbed a bank and got away with it.  :)
The last thing I would want is for JRiver to go the way MM, Winamp etc.. Let's leave things just as they are and help to support a great program.

One Question: How do I buy a version 9 license if I don't want to download the beta and install the beta? It is too early in the development for me to install a beta, past experiences with early betas have made me a little wiser.

Listening to: 'Badlands' from 'Greatest Hits' by 'Bruce Springsteen' on Media Jukebox
Logged
It's alright now, I learned my lesson well, you see you can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself - Rick Nelson

ZC

  • Regular Member
  • Recent member
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • Bite me, Moriarty!
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #72 on: September 21, 2002, 09:50:38 am »

[summarized in next message by JimH]
Well, I'll say it again:  If I spend my hard-earned money on MJ, I expect to be able to install and run it at anytime, any number of times. I don't want to deal with some strict restore policy. I'm still on the fence regarding purchasing for the first time, and whether or not I do will depend on this one factor. I've thought it over, and it doesn't matter if the cost is $25 or $45, I'd still want complete freedom in my number of installs. Simply put: If I buy it, I don't want to feel like I'm just "borrowing" it, or renting the program from J River. I want to feel like a consumer, in that my money was spent, and I got something I can keep forever- no matter how many times I rebuild my PC, no matter how many different internet providers I go through, no matter if the company goes out of business, no matter if the internet disappears completely. I want to be able to load it up, and use a full-functional program that I paid for, without any worry about how many more restores I have left, or things like that.

Copy protection is obviously important, but I'll say it again: When you make the honest customers go through hell and suffer crippling limitations just to evade the pirates, you're punishing the just for the actions of the unjust. The pirates will still exist, the ripoff copies will still be out there, and your customers will be frustrated by your program. To me, that sounds like a lose/lose situation. Personally, I'd rather lose some copies to pirates and have happy paying customers than lose slightly fewer copies to pirates, and have a bunch of ticked-off customers.

I mean, look at me. I found a suspicious copy, and as soon as I figured it out, I came here and downloaded a legit version, and posted news of my bogus discovery in these boards. I went a couple extra steps to be honest, and to show some respect to the creators of what I feel is a superior product. For you to turn around and say "That's great, fella. Now give us money and we'll let you use the product, but only under the strictest of guidelines, and only a limited number of times before you'll have to purchase it again" is sort of unfair. If I show my support by making a purchase, you at least owe me the same courtesy most other software designers show: Let me OWN the thing I purchased, with no strings except the EULA and perhaps some registration and a single, personalized, unrestricted registration key.   When I buy The Sims, or Medal of Honor, or most other titles, the key works every time, without limits, without restrictions save for those outlined in the EULA.

Basically, by making the process restrictive, you're telling your honest customers you like their money, but don't really trust them.  All it says to pirates is "Hey! Look! A challenge!"

Thus in the end, ironically enough, the pirates are the ones with the unrestricted version (because they always eventually crack things), and the paying customers don't have any such freedom.

Just consider these things before going crazy with the registration scheme. I'm set to buy this thing, but I'm not going to keep throwing money in any endless pit, just to get the same item to remain functional.

To end, I'll use an analogy: If I buy a bicycle, I get a bicycle. I can take it out of the garage at any time and use it... No matter how long it's been since I last used it, I don't have to pay for the bike again! Even if I tear down my garage and rebuild it, I don't have to pay for the bike again. When the bike company releases a newer, better set of wheels for the bike, I have the option to buy them for a cost that's likely LESS than the bike itself. If I buy those wheels, there's no limit to how many times I can put them on my bike, or replace them with the old wheels. It's my choice, because I paid for them.  

When some guy steals a bike from the manufacturer's factory, they don't tell all future bike purchasers that from now on, they can only remove their wheels up to 12 times, after which they must pay to do it another dozen times. Why restrict the people who BUY the product? Instead, make it harder for thieves to get INTO the factory.

In other words, the free download should only be whatever you're willing to let pirates play with. The purchased version should be inaccessible unless a customer has paid for it, and it should be PERSONALIZED. Like a bike, it should have something akin to a serial number. When you find that there are 100 Bob Johnsons with the same serial number all entering the paying customer website, you crack down on THEM. Not the single Jim Peterson with a unique, uncopied serial number. He hasn't allowed anyone to copy his, so why should he be punished?

He shouldn't. Bob Johnson should, though.

I know I've droned on a bit, and maybe been a bit redundant, but my point should be clear by now. You're severely limiting your audience if you make registration and activation a limited thing. What I pay for should really be mine, with only one restriction: The EULA.

`Just my deep thoughts on the subject. Thanks for reading, and SORRY if it was too long. I'd hate to make anyone read more than usual.

-ZC
Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72446
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #73 on: September 21, 2002, 10:09:15 am »


[Cliff's Notes version of ZC's message by JimH ]

ZC said:
I expect to install and run MJ at anytime.

Copy protection is important, but if you make customers go through ... to evade  pirates, you punish the [honest].  

I found a bad copy, but I came here, downloaded and posted [about it].  

Analogy: If I buy a bicycle, I get a bicycle.

[end of abridged version]
Logged

Influxor

  • Regular Member
  • Recent member
  • *
  • Posts: 43
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #74 on: September 21, 2002, 11:46:22 am »

just another post in support of purchaseing v9.x liscenses.

MJB is worth the money,  if not only due to it's functionality,  but esp. due to all the hard work that i have seen going into its continual development.

great work guys!  :P
Logged

KingSparta

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 20063
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #75 on: September 21, 2002, 01:24:55 pm »

>> abridged version
Thanks.
Logged
Retired Military, Airborne, Air Assault, And Flight Wings.
Model Trains, Internet, Ham Radio, Music
https://MyAAGrapevines.com
https://centercitybbs.com
Fayetteville, NC, USA

AussieBill

  • Regular Member
  • Junior Woodchuck
  • **
  • Posts: 66
  • Aussies do it upside down
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #76 on: September 21, 2002, 07:35:37 pm »

Based on Jim's reassuring comment:

"Buy version 8.0 now -- get version 9.0.  Exactly as you expected.  "

I purchased V8 today......

I will add my support to the following issues:
    * Firstly - the program is FANTASTIC at what I wanted, being organization of my MUSIC library!  ;D
    * I don't like the Microsoft-like licensing (at all) I want a permanent key that I don't have to ask a company to reinstall, especially (in these days) of company failures
    * I would like the product to stay around $25 and focus on music.  I have digital video and still cameras and although I like to organize my data, I wouldn't want it in MJ.
Logged

ZC

  • Regular Member
  • Recent member
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • Bite me, Moriarty!
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #77 on: September 21, 2002, 09:45:58 pm »

Exactly. THAT's what I was saying, though I don't know why anybody wouldn't want to read my whole post! It was well-composed, if a tad redundant and long-winded.

`Eh... An English teacher and author among audiophiles and Cliff's notes founders... No respect. No respect at all.

::)

-ZC

Logged

PhatPhreddy

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 613
  • Cosmic Comic
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #78 on: September 22, 2002, 12:54:16 am »

ZC while on one hand I agree with you in not being overly fond of the reg scheme I see it as a measure that JRiver had to do because of the user demographic... When selling a product to the MP3 crowd who generally have KaZaa / WinMX / Whatever p2p is flavour of the month istalled if they dont have some form of very good maximum install system in place then they face massive piracy... I remember Jim posted a log of the ip reporting for attempted cracks and it was huge over a couple of hour period. I sure know if they were my $25 a time I would have done something...

Also without wanting to argue too much... Your analogies are flawed (can you take your bicycle and clone infinate amounts of brand new identicle bicycles for almost 0 cost ??) and your idea of 'ownership' is not the way copyright on published works truly is... In fact you never 'own' software only the right to install and use said item according to the publishers wishes... If the publishers EULA was that you could install and only use for 10 seconds that is the publishers right (would not sell very well of course but I am just making a point)...

Copyright and terms of use are (IMHO) quite interesting and thorny subjects... As we head into an IP economy and a very likely DRM based future we would all be very well advised to read and learn a little about our rights and protections from both a consumer and publishers stand... One of my constant pet peeves is now that the RIAA wants to claim that all recordings are not ours to use but licensed to us as they see fit (notice the copy protected limitations on American legal 'fair use') then surely the CD is purely the medium and it is the recording I have purchased the right to listen to no ?? In that case they MUST provide me with a legal mechanism to replace at media cost only the recordings I own on damaged media ?? They cant have it both ways... Either I own the CD to do with as i see fit (I dont) Or I own the right to listen to the recording and have the media replaced...  


Anyway I am rambling again !!! I dont want this to come across as a put down just felt like making some comments..  
Logged
Phreddy@PhatPhreddy.net ICQ# 168975535
HTPC Front ends  

highwebl

  • Regular Member
  • Recent member
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #79 on: September 22, 2002, 11:41:47 am »

Quote
ZC while on one hand I agree with you in not being overly fond of the reg scheme I see it as a measure that JRiver had to do because of the user demographic... When selling a product to the MP3 crowd who generally have KaZaa / WinMX / Whatever p2p is flavour of the month istalled if they dont have some form of very good maximum install system in place then they face massive piracy... I remember Jim posted a log of the ip reporting for attempted cracks and it was huge over a couple of hour period. I sure know if they were my $25 a time I would have done something...



So, are you saying that I am guilty because I use this product in the first place?  Maybe JRiver could find a safer program to create.  Or maybe they could work harder with their 20 developers to find a registration scheme that would be convenient to paying users and inconvenient to pirates (instead of the current method which seems to reverse that).
Logged

ZC

  • Regular Member
  • Recent member
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • Bite me, Moriarty!
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #80 on: September 22, 2002, 01:44:15 pm »

You are right- The bike analogy was flawed. With software there is the threat of copying.

A better analogy would be a book.

If I buy a copy of John Grisham's "The Practice" the copyright belongs to John Grisham, but the copy of the book that I bought is mine.

I can pick it up and read it this week.
I can pick it up and read it two weeks from now.
I can pack it away, forget I had it, and then pick it up and read it five years from now.

In all cases, I don't have to re-purchase the book.

If I were a dishonest person, I could scan it into my computer and give the copies away to other people, or worse, sell it. The cost would be zero, as I've already got the computer and scanner- The same as an audiophile already has his computer and speakers. The book is easy to "crack"- in fact, it has no copy protection at all!

But I don't pirate books. Most people I know won't pirate books. First of all, the law is strict and the penalty is stiff- Same for software. Second, most honest people choose to find a way to support the author- Same for software.

If you author something good, people WILL pay for it, as a sign of gratitude if nothing else.

Now, to drone on, let's suppose they DID put a similar copy protection scheme on John Grisham's books...

I'd have to call John Grisham's publisher if I lost the registration key during all those years in storage. I might find that 10 years later, when I want to read that book, the publisher is out of business. Oh well. I can't open the book because I can't register.

That's just not fair. I paid for it. I paid for the right to use it when I see fit, as often as I see fit. If I wanted to rent the book, I'd do so- But I paid the larger price and bought it. It's in my possession, even though the actual book- the words- aren't MINE. It's Grisham's copyright, but it's at my disposal.

Copy protection IS important. I agree. I'm just saying don't use the bad guys as an excuse to limit or cheat the good guys. If I pay for it, I want unlimited access to it, and in return I promise not to give it to my friends or sell it on the 'net. What's more, I'm willing to back that up by giving the author my personal information. . . I don't even make THAT promise to John Grisham's publisher!

Protect it by all means, but do so in a way that is transparent to the end-user.

If I lose my receipt, I shouldn't have to buy the book again in order to read it.

Now, fire away with the shortened version. I just can't help being so verbose...

-ZC
Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72446
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #81 on: September 22, 2002, 02:44:24 pm »

zc and pp,
If you want to debate this, please copy and paste your ammo to a new thread.  I will delete it in 24 hours.

Jim
Logged

Bill Ko

  • Regular Member
  • Junior Woodchuck
  • **
  • Posts: 72
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #82 on: September 22, 2002, 02:56:33 pm »

I happened to wait until version 8 to buy, as I felt version 7 was just a bit too rough for me to register.  I liked its potential, though, and paid for version 8 the very night that I first downloaded it.  I do not mind that I may have to pay for version 9 because that's just what you normally do.  It remains to be seen, however, whether or not the price to performance ratio is good for me.  Version 8 is so good that I might not feel the need for an upgrade.  I'm not saying I'm a cheapskate; I'm saying that version 8 is truly a work of art.

Bill
Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72446
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #83 on: September 22, 2002, 03:36:21 pm »

Quote
Version 8 is so good that I might not feel the need for an upgrade.  I'm not saying I'm a cheapskate; I'm saying that version 8 is truly a work of art.


Thanks, Bill.  We consider that a high complement.  

Sometimes there is some noise here about how we're ripping people off for this or that.  We truly want you to feel like you got a good deal.  Even better if you feel like you got more than we promised.

That doesn't mean we won't try to convince you that V9 makes V8 look bad.   ;)
Logged

Doof

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 5908
  • Farm Animal Stupid
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #84 on: September 22, 2002, 04:00:03 pm »

I honestly didn't think I would be buying Version 9. Mainly because I had set out to find a jukebox app with a certain feature set. I found all of those features and more in MJ 8. I was set.

But then I tried 9. And I know I'm going to wind up buying it because I get all that I wanted and even more stuff that I realize would be really cool to have.

Plus, I think I'm addicted to suggesting features and having them show up. As long as that continues, you've got a steady customer. :)
Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72446
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #85 on: September 22, 2002, 04:08:54 pm »

Doof,
The check is in the mail.

Jim
Logged

KingSparta

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 20063
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #86 on: September 22, 2002, 04:17:32 pm »

Doof Is JimH Paying you to say good things?

Did you need to sign an Agreement?
Logged
Retired Military, Airborne, Air Assault, And Flight Wings.
Model Trains, Internet, Ham Radio, Music
https://MyAAGrapevines.com
https://centercitybbs.com
Fayetteville, NC, USA

Doof

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 5908
  • Farm Animal Stupid
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #87 on: September 23, 2002, 08:40:40 am »

Yeah, it's all documented right here in my Official Interact Moderator Membership Kit.

Didn't you get yours?

The check was very generous, although I thought the No-Compete Clause was a bit over the top.
Logged

zevele10

  • Guest
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #88 on: September 23, 2002, 10:31:03 am »

First i am one of those who said many times i was ready to pay $50 for MJ.
But i said at the same with some extra features and having learning to use MJ.This needs more than the 30 days free trial.
The extra features are for me some plugin who allow you to work inside MJ.
This programs exist,are at 90% free.I mean :find duplicates,check quality and some other small 'smart things'.Having this kind of programs integrated in MJ,would make me spend even more than the price of 9,if each plugin to be buy

And i still say it.
My first question is :what knew in 9 concerning music?
No picture ,Capuccino plugin,just music

I know"Zevele try it" is the answer,and yes i will.

I have a 7 license,the price i have to pay to get 9 is fair to me.
I am sure that the price of 9 is fair as well .

But the price of 9 is to high,no matter if it is a bargain in front of what it gives.

I do not say 9 is too much expensive,i say the price of 9 is to high

When i brought MJ,i was looking for a jukebox playing mp3cds encoded.Not with a small interface like WinAmp,not with f..windows opening everywhere like MM.Of cause not of color blue.Yes i forgot to check if Mj was playing a sound when....by the way.

Mister average,yes you are right,but like most of people on the net.
I was far away from tag3v5543-8 and super-tag cd45,from replay gain and all this stuff.

I would NEVER EVER had spend $45 on MJ at this time.And not on any other jukebox.

You have to understand that people have still the reaction of 'before the web'.

If they buy an expensive software,or it is in a box with  a notice or it is a very important one like a new Windows.

In this case ,for most of the people it is a very special thing,most of the time meaning to take the computer to the shop.

To buy "wind' [a player,a zip,a jukebox] ,to buy without getting a physical thing,was and still is a few $ fantasie

Because of it ,9 has a too high price.People will not buy it.

As i said many times, last summer i brought a MM box TO EACH of my nephews and nieces.
Not one for all,because the box was a present,was a physical present.One or two for all was "wind'

Or in this case MJ takes the way of a very specific high-end product.

To sell throught Cnet and other places like it ,$45 is much much too much[Zevele's english]

Do not know if it is possible but here is what i think:

To have 8 and 9 on the market.
Just put out a 8.999 with the troubleshootings and the progress on some weak fonctions you did when building 9

MJ 8 =$25
MJ9=$45
Update 8 to 9 =none

MJ7 license good for 7and 8 as now
Special option :MJ 8 owners can buy 9 for $?? instead of $ 45.

But i speak about to have two products,not only one.

Anyway ,spending $45 on 9 would allow me to select few thousand  Emusic song ,set them to delete genre and not having MJ blowing up?

I am teasing you,but i as many others would like better to pay to have some fonctions really working 100% than to have pictures flying around the monitor

I am not sure to buy 9.Because of the licence.The key on a floppy  is very good to my computer inexperience
Logged

Bill Ko

  • Regular Member
  • Junior Woodchuck
  • **
  • Posts: 72
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #89 on: September 23, 2002, 02:37:35 pm »

Quote
<snip>
Plus, I think I'm addicted to suggesting features and having them show up. As long as that continues, you've got a steady customer. :)


Also reporting bug fixes and having them fixed THE SAME DAY you report it!  Don't forget about THAT.  :)

Bill
Logged

Endymion

  • Regular Member
  • Recent member
  • *
  • Posts: 43
  • I am who I have always been
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #90 on: September 23, 2002, 07:01:26 pm »

New upgrade policy works for me  ;D
Logged

dnoyeb

  • Regular Member
  • Recent member
  • *
  • Posts: 33
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #91 on: September 29, 2002, 04:13:07 am »

I first tried MJ over a year ago just to play a few mp3 files.  I liked MJ because it tries to be just another windows app.  No funkdafied rounded interface or rediculous colors every dang where.  Just the standard square windows with the _OX at the top.

THEN you can turn on skins when you want.

1 year later I came back and BOUGHT MJ because of that but also because it was like $25.  If it were more than $25 I would also be using winamp.  My main feature was the library management, AND the ripping in one program.

Later I discovered,
1.  Media Server
2.  Download Manager

I would pay upto $29.99 for MJ, but I don't use portable mp3 player, or have need of any other features.  Likely I wont get v9 simple because what else do I need?


As for restores, I have installed MJ countless times.  You only need to restore when you loose your key.   I am not loosing my key.  I wasted a restore because I didn't know what it was used for.


The only new functionality I require is handling multiple users on NT oses.
Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72446
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: Version 8 Customers Will Have to Pay for Versi
« Reply #92 on: September 29, 2002, 04:29:52 am »

This thread and the thread called "Which Path..." are both closed now and a new thread here starts with a description of what we learned from them and our reaction:

http://www.musicex.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=general;action=display;num=1033151899

Thanks to everyone who helped.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up