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Author Topic: Anyone else using la la (CD trading service)  (Read 4278 times)

enigman

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Anyone else using la la (CD trading service)
« on: June 14, 2006, 01:51:38 pm »

Hey -

Is anyone else using lala?  I just discovered it a week ago - it's a great service that lets you trade CDs (retail only - no bootlegs, since it's totally legit) with other members.  They charge you $1 plus shipping for each trade. 

I've already picked up some great CDs while cleaning house and getting rid of some of the stuff I never listen to.

The great thing about it is that you don't have to do one-to-one trades with people - the system will automatically let you know who to ship CDs to, and in exchange gives you a "credit" for a 3rd person to ship you a CD on your want list.

Check it out at lala.com and happy trading!

P.S.  If someone wants to write a plugin for MC to upload a library to lala, that'd be real cool!
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geekbeats2

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Re: Anyone else using la la (CD trading service)
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2006, 07:26:01 pm »

Im on there aswell its awesome to say the least!! Yea an MC plugin for LALA would be great!
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gitcheye

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Re: Anyone else using la la (CD trading service)
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2006, 09:14:02 am »

I am a 'la la' subscriber as well.  Looking forward to the plug-in!
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Gitcheye

Doof

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Re: Anyone else using la la (CD trading service)
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2006, 08:44:12 am »

Haven't really had time to read up on it, but is there any guarantee somebody's not going to send you a CD that's all scratched up and skips a lot?
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zxsix

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Re: Anyone else using la la (CD trading service)
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2006, 09:37:34 am »

I signed up.  Received 2 CD's already and shipped 1 out.
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bigcuedaddy

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Re: Anyone else using la la (CD trading service)
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2006, 08:42:13 am »

     I am a very active trader on LALA. Great service! As far as scratched discs go, well, its a hit or miss thing. When you confirm receipt of the disc, LALA will ask you if it is playable. If it skips, just mark "no", and they wont charge you for the transaction.

     If you are looking for pristine, collectible discs, LALA probably isnt the best source. If you are looking to pick up some good discs that you otherwise wouldnt pay full retail to get, and dont mind a few scratches now and then, or missing some album art, its a fantastic idea. Its also a good way to get rid of discs you never should have purchased to begin with (ie: new Paris Hilton). 
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joshhuggins

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Re: Anyone else using la la (CD trading service)
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2006, 03:25:23 pm »

This sounds like it could lead to some major pirating. What's to keep someone from paying a buck for a disc, ripping it and then reselling it? Am I missing something?
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bigcuedaddy

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Re: Anyone else using la la (CD trading service)
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2006, 04:00:59 pm »

well, that could be illegal.
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joshhuggins

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Re: Anyone else using la la (CD trading service)
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2006, 04:57:55 pm »

So it's pretty much a on your honor thing huh?
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bigcuedaddy

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Re: Anyone else using la la (CD trading service)
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2006, 05:05:45 pm »

All based on honor and doing the right thing.
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adamsp70

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Re: Anyone else using la la (CD trading service)
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2006, 10:29:07 am »

U.S. only? Bah....
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bigcuedaddy

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Re: Anyone else using la la (CD trading service)
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2006, 10:32:47 am »

It would create a billing nightmare to incorporate different postal rates for international addresses. Also, I doubt if the USPS would even allow international shipping via prepaid mail envelopes.
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glynor

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Re: Anyone else using la la (CD trading service)
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2006, 11:08:03 am »

well, that would be illegal.

Actually.... As long as you copy the CD with a standalone CD recorder (and not a computer) and you use the special Audio CD discs available at the local Walmart to do it, it would be perfectly legal to do so, so long as the person making the copies isn't getting compensated in any way for doing so.

This is because of the AHRA (Audio Home Recording Act) which explicitly states (in 17 USC 1008):

Quote
No action may be brought under this title alleging infringement of copyright based on the manufacture, importation, or distribution of a digital audio recording device, a digital audio recording medium, an analog recording device, or an analog recording medium, or based on the noncommercial use by a consumer of such a device or medium for making digital musical recordings or analog musical recordings.

Furthermore, in 17 USC 1001 a "digital audio recording medium" is defined as:

Quote
A “digital audio recording medium” is any material object in a form commonly distributed for use by individuals, that is primarily marketed or most commonly used by consumers for the purpose of making digital audio copied recordings by use of a digital audio recording device.
(B) Such term does not include any material object—
(i) that embodies a sound recording at the time it is first distributed by the importer or manufacturer; or
(ii) that is primarily marketed and most commonly used by consumers either for the purpose of making copies of motion pictures or other audiovisual works or for the purpose of making copies of nonmusical literary works, including computer programs or data bases.

In layman's terms, this refers to the "Audo CD" discs that you can buy most places where you can buy Data CDs.  Those CDs are special in that they cost more.  They cost more because each time you buy one, a royalty payment is made which eventually filters its way into the RIAA's pocket.  The definition specifically excludes the other "data type" CD discs (that's what that "ii" subsection is).

However, be careful because Computers themselves are not defined as digital audio recording devices.  From 17 USC 1001:

Quote
(3) A “digital audio recording device” is any machine or device of a type commonly distributed to individuals for use by individuals, whether or not included with or as part of some other machine or device, the digital recording function of which is designed or marketed for the primary purpose of, and that is capable of, making a digital audio copied recording for private use, except for—
(A) professional model products, and
(B) dictation machines, answering machines, and other audio recording equipment that is designed and marketed primarily for the creation of sound recordings resulting from the fixation of nonmusical sounds.

The courts have ruled that computers are not covered by the AHRA because they are not "designed or marketed for the primary purpose of, and that is capable of, making a digital audio copied recording for private use".  They have lots of other uses and purposes.  That's GOOD in many ways, because the AHRA also defines a special DRM scheme that prevents these Audio CD Recorders from using standard Data CDs (and does some other nefarious stuff), and if a computer was covered by the AHRA the manufacturers would be forced to implement the DRM scheme.

But... The take home is, as long as you do it with a standalone (non-professional) CD recorder, you use the more-expensive Audio CD-R discs, and you do it not-for-profit (including selling ads or any other sneaky schemes), you are free to make as many copies of borrowed discs as you want, give them away to friends, and anything else you want with them.

In the US, of course, that is.  And, Shhhhh... The RIAA certainly doesn't want people to know this.  Even though it was them that lobbied heavily for the law (they wanted the payola from the sale of those Audio CDs, they just didn't want people to know that they could do it legally).

The RIAA certainly doesn't like systems like this CD trading service, since they exploit a perfectly legal loophole in the copyright regime (one they created themselves).  But there's little they can do about it realistically.  They could try to sue the "owners" of the service and prove that most users are not following the AHRA properly, and thereby infringing, and thereby the "owners" of the service are profiting from the infringement (ala Napster).  This might be a difficult case to prove though, and it would draw unwanted attention to the loophole they hope no one notices.  Plus, the "owners" could avoid the whole thing by incorporating as a non-profit org.
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joshhuggins

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Re: Anyone else using la la (CD trading service)
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2006, 01:32:27 pm »

What would define a non-professional CD recorder? So would getting a CD via LaLa burning yourself a copy on an approved Audio CD, with a non-professional recorder, and then re-trading the CD from LaLa for a new CD via LaLa to repeat the process be legal? And could you legally rip the copied Audio CD to mp3 legally for your own private use? If so I would be vary intereseted in LaLa ;D Just seems like it should be illegal. Seems like we would have to keep the original disc or something. Just trying to walk the straight and narrow, but get cheap music too  ;D Is it just because the higher cost of the Audio CD's trickle down to them to cover the rights to use the music and we are taking the marketing, manufacturing cost out of the picture by burning it our self? Thanks for any info.
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glynor

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Re: Anyone else using la la (CD trading service)
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2006, 02:28:37 pm »

What would define a non-professional CD recorder?

Anything you could pick up at Best Buy would generally be a non-professional CD recorder.  That provision is to exclude large CD-Duplicator devices like these:

http://www.primera.com/bravoxr_series.html

As far as your other questions... Yes.  It is technically legal as long as you jump through all the hoops laid out in the law.  The RIAA does get a cut of the "royalties" that you pay when you buy those 50 cent Audio CD discs.  In fact, they've gotten sued repeatedly by indie labels because they don't accurately redistribute that pot of money to include artists from the independant labels... They just take the money and run.

As far as ripping to MP3 on your computer.  Despite what the RIAA would like us to believe, that is perfectly legal no matter what (as long as the source you are ripping was legally obtained) as it is an activity covered by fair use.  You are expressly allowed to repurpose, remix, and re-format content for non-commercial, private use.  You are also expressly allowed (thanks to the AHRA and previous copyright laws from less draconian times) to record "over the air" broadcasts and do what you'd like with them (the RIAA hates this and this is what all the Broadcast Flag hoopla is about).

Ripping a DVD (most DVDs anyway -- those protected by CSS) onto your computer however is technically illegal no matter what (even if you purchased the original DVD and still own and posess it).  The actual act of ripping the DVD is covered by fair use and is legal, but in order to do so you must circumvent the copy protection measures (DRM) embedded in the disc.  This excersise is trivial using software like DVD Decrypter, but under the Digital Millenium Copyright Act it is illegal (in the US and other countries with a DMCA-clone law) to possess, use, create, or distribute an application or device designed to circumvent copy protection measures, even if the goal of said use is otherwise protected by law.

But since this facet of the law is nearly impossible to enforce, and it certainly doesn't prevent the real pirates from obtaining and using the said software, what then was the point of the RIAA/MPAA from lobbying heavily to get the law passed?  Well, so they could resell you the movies you already own the DVDs of formatted for your iPod (and your coming car-computer, and your new in-home video distribution system, and your XBOX4, and so on and so forth).  They didn't want to stop piracy at all, they wanted to make format-shifting difficult so that they can resell the same content over and over (if not for the law you could buy software at Best Buy that would convert your DVDs into iPod friendly format).

And that, my friend, is just one example of how totally screwed up the current situation of copyright law is....  (Not to mention that the protection now lasts life plus 70 years when the original term was designed to be 14 years.  How exactly does protecting works after the creators are dead encourage the artists to continue to create works, which is the stated aim of copyright law's artificial monopoly?)
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LonWar

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Re: Anyone else using la la (CD trading service)
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2006, 05:21:43 pm »

What would define a non-professional CD recorder? So would getting a CD via LaLa burning yourself a copy on an approved Audio CD, with a non-professional recorder, and then re-trading the CD from LaLa for a new CD via LaLa to repeat the process be legal? And could you legally rip the copied Audio CD to mp3 legally for your own private use? If so I would be vary intereseted in LaLa ;D Just seems like it should be illegal. Seems like we would have to keep the original disc or something. Just trying to walk the straight and narrow, but get cheap music too  ;D Is it just because the higher cost of the Audio CD's trickle down to them to cover the rights to use the music and we are taking the marketing, manufacturing cost out of the picture by burning it our self? Thanks for any info.

I don't see how lala is any different from buying a cd at a used cd store....
One could buy a cd, copy it and then resell it back to the trading store.


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bigcuedaddy

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Re: Anyone else using la la (CD trading service)
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2006, 05:39:28 pm »

I agree. The service itself is totally legal; what you do with the discs is another matter, perhaps.
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glynor

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Re: Anyone else using la la (CD trading service)
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2006, 06:13:01 pm »

I agree. The service itself is totally legal; what you do with the discs is another matter, perhaps.

Right.  And I would agree that of those people who are using the service to rip/copy the discs they receive, it is likely that north of 90% of them are doing so illegally.

My only point was that it isn't automatically illegal to do so, as the FUD machine would have you believe.  The legality test isn't "did I pay the copyright holder for this content?", it's "do any of the copyright holder's legal rights trump my otherwise innate right to do with this content whatever I please".

The original goal of copyright law was to encourage economically the creation of "art" by granting via statute a temporary, artificial monopoly for the creator of works so that they would be provided with a reasonable period of time with which to profit from said work.  Otherwise, government mandated monopolies were viewed quite dimly.  It most certainly was not out of the belief that the work's creator had some inalienable right to profit from their efforts.
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joshhuggins

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Re: Anyone else using la la (CD trading service)
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2006, 01:28:52 pm »

Thanks glynor for the detailed information. I will try to do some of my own homework on the topic too, but you have given a great starting block.
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bigcuedaddy

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Re: Anyone else using la la (CD trading service)
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2006, 01:34:56 pm »

I changed my original response to "that COULD be illegal"     :D
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