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[glynor]

I just thought I'd throw my opinion in here too (better late than never)...

MC12 is decidedly ho-hum to me.  I like the new skin, and the new unified interface.  I also like the display window a lot.  I really like some of the new video and image options.  However....

Otto is still too fiesty and broken for my tastes, and I agree that it is the only "high-profile" addition.  AND, I agree with others that the reaction is likely to be "finally" not "I have to have it".  All-in-all, I think it needs quite a bit more (at least 2 more "big ticket" features) before I'd say it deserves a major point release upgrade (and a new purchase price).

At this point, if I had to pay it would be a tough choice.  I'm still using MC11.1 on most of my machines because of my problems with Otto.   

Oh, and as far as the services... I understand what you're saying Jim, but...  What are the market share on those services?  And what's the market share on the iTunes Store?  Maybe that will turn around and maybe it won't, but that's certainly not going to have any mass-market appeal to your user base right off.  Those things mostly appeal to corporate partners right now.

[JimH]

Glynor,
Can you expand on "feisty and broken"?

Thanks.

[glynor]

I posted my complaints here some time back, and most of them are still very applicable.  It's just not usable for me.  A quick run-down:

1. Too slow (not even close to fast enough), and not controllable as to when/if/how it scans the watched folders.
2. I can't maintain a list of folders that I want to run manual imports on (with excludes and whatnot) separately from the list of folders that I want Otto to watch.
3. Doesn't provide any real feedback on what it is doing.  Things just change with no explanation as to why or how.
4. To clunky to get into Tools-Options-Library to run manual imports now (since I have "Otto's Auto" disabled).
5. It re-imports things that I don't want imported (for example the old FLACs that I've converted to MP3s but haven't moved/deleted yet).  The alternative, to enable "Don't Reimport" isn't workable because I usually WANT to have everything show up (I don't want a bunch of orphaned files that MC ignores).  I just want to be able to easily "temporarily suspend" Otto (or schedule it as I mentioned above).

There are other smaller problems with the new system too.

One problem is that I've been using MC12 with a small subset of my real library, so I haven't really been able to test Otto in a "production" environment for some time.  I think I'll try to do that this weekend, but I haven't seen much in the build threads about any of these concerns really....

[Matt]

You may be making it more complicated than it needs to be -- try letting it watch your whole library.

[JimH]

When you set up any new folder, you can tell MC to watch it or not watch it.

Under Tools, there is an option to "Add folder to library".  This does an import of a single directory as you want (N:\music).

When you convert FLAC to MP3, you can have MC replace the FLAC file not add a new one.

The last two builds are a lot better in several respects.  If you haven't tested them, please do.

[jgreen]

Matt/JimH--

I don't think Otto's broken by any means, and he's overwhelmingly useful.  But in another post Glynor mentioned the "fix broken links" issue.  Basically, with Otto looking at removable media (firewire drives), "fix broken links" can result in large chunks of data being booted from the library. 

Also, it really is clunky to get into 'tools/options/library" to edit watch folders.  You have a direct route to add a folder under tools, that should be the path straight to Otto Central.

[Matt]

There's no real harm in letting otto remove and re-add files from removable disks.  It won't need to reanalyze the files, so speed isn't a real issue.

Of course, there's also the option under Tasks to tell otto to leave removable disks alone.

[Mr ChriZ]

Of course, there's also the option under Tasks to tell otto to leave removable disks alone.

I think this should be a default option if not forced.  It's fine for
things like APE files where the tags can be quickly restored.
However for things like video/images where the information
can just be lost permanently, that seems a dangerous situation to me...

It's not something I thought about till it removed half my library,
I then posted the "Where Otto works badly" post

[jgreen]

Much agreement, ChriZ.

It's not an issue with Otto, just a matter of resetting the defaults now that Otto's part of the process.  Certain settings (fix broken links with network drives disabled) now become fairly risky and a potential headache for new users and the Help Desk.

[JimH]

We'll look at the default settings.  Thanks.

[marko]

also, when that happens, as it did with all my video files too, it messes up data such as date imported, number plays, last played etc. which is a shame.

I changed the filepath on a bunch of images in a watched folder to test Otto's fix broken links task.

At first, it appeared to have worked really well, and quickly too. Closer inspection revealed that what had actually occured was that all previous data held in the database was removed, and the images were imported from their new location as new files, which of course, meant the loss of any data not held within the file tags.
Otto did not ask any questions, nor did he offer any hint as to what he'd been up to. I wasn't too keen on this, and see it as a bit of a flaw in the 'set it and forget' philosophy that's being touted. I simply don't think the fix missing links side of things is reliable enough for that.
Personally, I would never move files this way. I'd edit the filename field and let MC take care of things that way for me. Not everybody works the same way though, so caution needs to be exercised in this area.

Once again, the possibility of IPTC imports destructively overwriting existing database information also needs to be considered. Otto gave a heck of a run around while I tried to get that sorted out, a process that required more than a few library restores and tag updates. Sure, once you've caught up, it's not such a big deal with regards to newly imported images, but for the existing library data of MC upgraders, it doesn't sit well with the 'set it and forget it' philosophy.

[glynor]

There's no real harm in letting otto remove and re-add files from removable disks.  It won't need to reanalyze the files, so speed isn't a real issue.

It is for video files.  It loses all my tags when they're removed.  I have thousands and thousands of video files on disc, but they're all part of MC's database.

And what exactly do you mean "have it watch my entire library"?

As I mentioned.... My "library" lives in a variety of places on a variety of machines.  I use MC to sort, catalog, and consolidate it.  I've posted before that the performance implications for my network when running MC12 and scanning just my HTPC's "TiVO" drive (which is currently a completely full 500 GB disk of MPEG-2 files) is too serious to be used.

Has performance on Otto been drastically improved?  Does it no longer transfer files across the network for analysis on import?  If so, how does it import, thumbnail, and catalog video files on network media?

The problem is that on any given day, I might have anywhere from 0 to 300 GB of "new" video files appear on my network drives.  If my copy of MC12 happens to be running and watching my "new video" folder on my editing workstation, it will kill my network without warning.  So, my choices are:

1. Make sure that none of my 3 installs of MC (in my house) are running at the time I copy over new video to the folder on my editing workstation.  (PITA)
2. Don't use MC to manage my video on my editing workstation (not desirable, I'll stick with 11.1 thanks)
3. Don't use Otto.

And as I said... That's just one of my many network locations.  I have a different machine that runs Bittorrent all day, and it has it's own "incoming" folder.  I have another network location where my new pictures get dumped, sometimes 200-500 at a time.

After everything has been imported into MC, I use it to tag them, edit stuff out, and move them to my "library" RAID5 box (sometimes with an intervening conversion step for video).

[glynor]

I just thought I'd update this thread, since I've had more experience with Otto set to Auto now.

This is all using the current build (12.0.55).

Today I switched from using MC12 exclusively with a "test" database and set of files, over to my regular library (same one used for MC11.1).  I first imported my library from MC11.1 and made sure everything matched.  Then, I opened Tools --> Options --> Library and enabled Otto.  I added just a handful of my "standard" library locations to the folder list.  These are:

RAID 5 drive on Network (high speed and reliability Gigabit ethernet connected box):

M:\Artwork and Photos\
M:\Incoming\
M:\Music\
M:\Video\

Local Drives (all high speed SATA2 drives):

N:\new\
P:\video\Final\

DVR recording Drive on HTPC (also Gigabit connected):

T:\compressed\
T:\recordings\

This complement of watched folders does not include any of my removable drives (which are typically connected), my Video editing workstation drives, or a smattering of local directories that are often used.  It is just my "everyday" library folders, all of which I would want watched by Otto in a regular production environment.

In all cases, Ignore files previously removed was unchecked, and Ignore Special Files was checked.  The vast majority of file types were selected for each folder.  Under Tasks, Build Thumbnails was unchecked and Fix Broken was set to Yes (leave network files).  Update for external changes was checked.

Upon clicking OK to the options dialog, MC12's UI completely froze (gave no indication that the OK had "taken" at all) for a period of 8 minutes.  During this time, Task Manager showed Network utilization running at around 10% of capacity and CPU was pegged at near 100%.  The system remained responsive otherwise (which is how I've been typing this message) but MC12 would not respond, and wouldn't repaint the screen at all.

As I said, this condition persisted with no feedback from MC at all for about 8 minutes (I timed it with my system clock not a stopwatch so it may have been 7.5 and it may have been 9). Since it "came back to life" I have been also seeing periodic "floods" of Network activity (jumping between 1% and 15% in Task Manager) on a regular basis while MC12 is open.  These periods do not occur with it closed.

I should also mention, that there was not an excessive number of new files to be imported (probably 10-15 total), as I had already "restored" my library from MC11.1 which was mostly up to date.

So you don't think I'm just running it on an ancient machine:

Code: [Select]

Media Center Registered 12.0.55 -- C:\Program Files\J River\Media Center 12\

Microsoft Windows XP  Workstation 5.1 Service Pack 2 (Build 2600)
AMD Unknown 2004 MHz MMX / Memory: Total - 2096 MB, Free - 1111 MB

Internet Explorer: 6.0.2900.2180 / ComCtl32.dll: 5.82.2900 / Shlwapi.dll: 6.0.2900 / Shell32.dll: 6.0.2900 / wnaspi32.dll: N/A
Ripping /   Drive D:   Mode:Normal  Type:Auto  Speed:Max
  Drive E:   Mode:Normal  Type:Auto  Speed:Max
  Drive V:   Mode:Normal  Type:Auto  Speed:Max
  Digital playback: Yes /  Use YADB: Yes /  Get cover art: No /  Calc replay gain: Yes /  Copy volume: 32767
  Eject after ripping: Yes /  Play sound after ripping: No 

Burning /  Drive D: _NEC     DVD_RW ND-3500AG   Addr: 1:0:0  Speed:48  MaxSpeed:48  BurnProof:Yes
  Drive E: LITE-ON  LTR-48246S         Addr: 1:1:0  Speed:48  MaxSpeed:48  BurnProof:Yes
  Test mode: No /  Eject after writing: Yes /  Direct decoding: Yes /  Write CD-Text: Yes
  Use playback settings: No /
It's an Athlon 63 3200+ running at stock speeds.  High quality RAM on an ASUS A8R32-MVP board.

All in all, it is improved from last time I tried it, but it still isn't wonderful.  If closing the Otto dialog will take such a long time, then it certainly needs some feedback (at least a warning, but preferably a progress meter of some kind).

Also, I have to agree with others that Otto doesn't really belong in the Tools --> Options --> Library dialog.  I think it should have it's own dialog similar to the old Tools --> Import Media dialog.  This would make providing UI feedback easier and more understandable as well.

[Matt]

Can you reproduce the lag leaving options or was it a one time thing?

I'm guessing the scan of the network isn't honoring thread priorities nicely.  If we can reproduce it, it'll get sorted.

Thanks for any help.

[glynor]

If I go in and re-leave the Options dialog without resetting anything it still lags, but no where near the same type of delay (more like 1-2 seconds -- just enough to go "eh?  what?" and then it closes).

Just for giggles, I removed all of my folders from Otto, and then closed MC12 (lag that time was similar to above).  Re-adding them did not seem to re-introduce the delay when closing the dialog.  So, it seems to be related to the actual importing of the files...

I tried deleting a bunch of the files that Otto had imported (when I checked, it turned out to actually be 45 video files all on Drive M listed above).  Unfortunately, Otto refused to reimport those files (dispite "Ignore Files Previously Removed" being Unchecked for all relevant folders).  I tried:

• Opening and closing Otto's dialog without changing anything.
• Deleting and re-adding the M:\Video\ directory from Otto's list.
• Closing and restarting MC12.
• Waiting a while (10 minutes maybe).

Nothing would bring them back except entering Otto's Options panel and selecting Check Folders Now.  Then, after scanning MC11 style, it did re-import those files.  After which it immediately crashed (not sure if it's related, but that's what happened).

The files were all XviD compressed AVI's that I had created myself (from recordings made with my BeyondTV app on the HTPC).  All were looked over in MC11 previously (and with MPC) at least once, and all work correctly.

So.... Barring removing everything I've done today and re-trying it, I can't reproduce the delay, simply because I can't get Otto to re-import "removed" files.

[glynor]

Again... Can I please have easy access back to the Check Folders Now function back?  Including:

1. Something similar to MC11's Tools --> Import Media selection.  Maybe just a Check Watched Folders Now choice.  Or maybe a choice in the Action Window...

2. A toolbar button again.  It's gone, and I used to use it all the time.

3. Automation commands.  I don't know if they're still there or not yet.  I hope so though, as I have that function assigned to a button on my remote.

It's just needed.  I add new media all the time.  Sometimes while people are there.  I don't want to have to browse and find the stupid folder using the Add Folder dialog each time if Otto isn't cooperating or quick enough.  Otto isn't finding everything, and isn't finding it quick enough (sometimes I'm sitting there waiting for something to finish downloading on another machine).  It was simple before to just click the toolbar button and run a scan...

I'll shut up about Otto then.   

[JimH]

As I said, this condition persisted with no feedback from MC at all for about 8 minutes (I timed it with my system clock not a stopwatch so it may have been 7.5 and it may have been 9).

Would you call this a bug report then?  Or is it a sort of personal memoir?

[glynor]

Well... I guess that depends on if it happens again.  We'll see tomorrow when I have another 25-30 new files to import.

If so, then it's definitely a bug report.  If it never happens again, well...

Then it's just weird.

I suspect I'll see it whenever I enter that dialog and there are new files to add in the folders in there.  We shall see.  Either way, Otto failing to obey the "Ignore Files Previously Removed" option is problematic.  Also, my other concerns....