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[Magic_Randy]

I've retired my Norton products and would appreciate suggestions for:

1) Firewall
2) Virus Checker
3) Spyware Checker

The Norton products worked, but take too much system resources.

[KingSparta]

Windows One Care From Microsoft.

It Has All Three And I Have Been Using It For Over A Year And Have Had No Problems With Any Part Of it.

[Magic_Randy]

KingSparta,

Good suggestion.  I just downloaded it.  They have a 90 day free trial.  You can't beat that.  And with a MS product, it should work pretty well with Vista.

Plus I should be able to use DataMaster without turning off the firewall.   

I've used Norton products for years.  They have always been resource hungry, had problems with installs, and other issues, but I've kept using it.  I recently tried their new beta for Norton 360.  Based on that experience, I decided it was time to jump ship.

[jgreen]

Randy--

Although I have not tried the windows One Care, I have never seen MSFT do a complete or proper job of ANYTHING.  While I am certain that MSFT will ensure that One Care has priviledged access to Vista that no other vendor will enjoy, the mission statement at MSFT has always been to do the absolute minimum and then market the heck out of it.  I would not trust them to clean up after my dog, much less protect my computer.  And this says nothing of protection from threats that originate from MSFT (e.g Windows Genuine Advantage pushed out as a critical bug fix).

I can't blame you for dropping Norton, I did the same thing a year ago and my computer runs much better for it.  Norton really has dropped the ball, and I don't see them regaining their leadership position any time soon.

Zone Alarm is the top-rated firewall and is COMPLETELY FREE.  You can do like I did and pay $50 for their "Pro" version which isn't any more exhaustive, it simply has more knobs and settings.  But I suggest you give them a try.

[Magic_Randy]

Zone Alarm is the top-rated firewall and is COMPLETELY FREE. 

Thanks for the suggestion.  I've read good things about Zone Alarm, but it also looks like they are in beta now for the next version.  I've downloaded MS One Care, so I'll try it for awhile.  Before I go final with anything I'll take a closer look at Zone Alarm - hopefully they will be out of beta soon.  Are you using their Spyware & Antivirus?

[jgreen]

As for Anti-Virus, Norton had the most effective heuristic layer (checking for worisome behaviors in unknown programs, rather than simply checking for known signatures).  however, as you and I found, Norton AV slowed the computer down and threw up a lot of false positives.

I'm currently using AVG.  I like it, although it depends heavily on signature lists.  With daily updates it seems to be doing the job.  However, they appear to be trying to charge for their product now, or at least they're trying to charge me.  So I'm looking around.

I use Zone Alarm for Spyware.  Spybot and Ad-aware are the top names, but ZA is easy to use, and has analysis of PUPs (potentially Unwanted Programs) exceeded only by Hijack This.  With all the TrialWare installed on new computers, getting a handle on PUPs is an important step towards protecting privacy, IMO.

An aspect of Zone Alarm firewall that I don't believe is implemented in MSFT One Care is the outgoing firewall.  While Word and Excel are great programs, their rich Macro functions (and MSFT's indifference to security) make them ready targets for takeover.  ZA's firewall allows you to configure internet access and internal access rules for these programs.  So even if a virus slips by and installs itself, it can't phone home with your bank account numbers.  For example, I was tricked by MSFT into downloading and installing the spyware WGA, shich was disguised as a critical bug fix.  Even though I have this piece of Micros**t installed and monitoring my computer activity, ZA has prevented it from ever contacting the spyware gang that wrote it. 

[Magic_Randy]

jgreen,

Thanks for all of the information.  I'll watch for the new version of ZA.  It looks like the pro version does everything.  I have found, at least as it relates to spyware, that multiple products are needed to expand the coverage.  I've used Spybot and Ad-Aware to supplement other products.  Each picks up things other products miss.  At least I'm free from Norton.

Randy

[marko]

I use NOD32 for AV protection = very small system footprint
and agnitum outpost pro for firewall protection.

After trialling, I stumped up for 3 yr liscences for both products. I'll probably renew NOD32 as I'm quite satisfied with its performance. I'm reasonably pleased with agnitum, though it's real time spyware protection can be a bit rescource hungry, and steals focus while auto-updating in the background. I will be scanning the firewall market before renewing my agnitum liscence.

-marko.

[Magic_Randy]

Thanks marko

[jgreen]

Randy--

While I use ZA Pro and love it, and it is the top-rated firewall/security package out there, but just a note of caution:  ZA comes with default settings and these are highly secure.  However, if you choose to try your own settings (like I did), you can VERY easily configure your computer so that it will not reboot again short of safe mode (like I did).  Because the "OS Firewall" is so exhaustive, seemigly innocuous settings can have huge consequences, as the long-suffering jriver help desk can attest.  The issue is that most programs (like MC) interact with other processes, for example windows explorer.  If you restrict access the program hangs, and this gets really old quick.  So I would suggest starting with the default settings, which are plenty good, and then going slowly with anything further.

[Magic_Randy]

I would suggest starting with the default settings, which are plenty good, and then going slowly with anything further.

Thanks for the tip.

It's nice to learn from someone else's experience.

[lepa]

Free versions of Kerio firewall and Avast antivirus here. Both reliable.
For spyware the usual Ad-Aware and Spybot.

[LonWar]

You can get a free year of Virus scanning through CA...

http://www.microsoft.com/athome/security/viruses/wsc/en-us/default.mspx

[Tab]

There are 3 free AV products that consistently detect 100% of ITW viri when updated (obviously they will only detect a new one once the update is released and dl'ed). These are AVG, Antivir and Avast. There are lots of other free AV programs, but anything not catching 100% of itw viri will leave you open to infection.

Clamwin is _not_ a desktop AV solution, or even close to one. It catches only around a third of all viri. IIRC it is designed for email servers.


ZA is good as long as you dont ever plan to uninstall it.
Kerio 2.1.5 is very light on resources but not entirely secure, and imho a pain to use. Maybe useful for anyone still running a 486 or early P1.
Comodo firewall claims some novel security features but I've not played with it. ISTR you need to know what setting to select at install time to stop it phoning home - alt.comp.freeware will know the details.


Tab

[KingSparta]

besides all that microsoft has a new beta "Windows Live Mail Desktop"

seems like a dumb name with all this "Live" crap they seem to be into now days, but it works and has a spam detector in it.

[Magic_Randy]

Time for my report on Windows One Care.

I used the 90 day trial for the past month.  Today I un-installed it.  EDIT: Both Windows One Care and Windows Defender

I found that MC was consuming more and more resources.  Recently it's been taking ~80+ percent of my CPU to just play music.  That's without visualizations, plug-ins, etc.  So I un-installed One Care, turned on all my plug-ins, and started playing music.  CPU usage when playing music is now ~10%.  Note: this is not all MC - it includes FF2, Task Manager, & whatever else is running in background.

So next I'll try ZoneAlarm.  Their new version is now out of beta and they have a 15 day trial.

[marko]

So next I'll try ZoneAlarm.  Their new version is now out of beta and they have a 15 day trial.

I'll await your ZA report with interest. Agnitum Outpost failed me recently with rather catastrophic consequences. The firewall, or something passing through it, threw me a BSOD or two, then wouldn't load correctly, preventing windows from functioning correctly, and repeated presses of the reset button kind of upset my HDD!!!

I've rolled back to version 3.5 from version 4 and will likely stay there for the remainder of my subscription. *!@* like that I can do without, so I may well be looking for an alternative solution sometime in the near future.

Our NOD32 subscription is up this August too, though I can see us renewing that. The whole family chipped in for a 3 year, five PC liscence for NOD32 and there have been no problems whatsoever.

[Magic_Randy]

marko,

I'll post the results of my test.

So far ZA is working out.  The installation was easy and straight forward.  Almost everything was done automatically.  They have good documentation and a video tutorial that teaches you what you need to know to answer the few questions needed for the setup.  I'll now have to see how the firewall behaves with normal activity. 

I also did my first virus & spyware scan with ZA.  It found one virus that none of the other products I've recently used could find.  That includes Norton Antivirus and Windows One Care.

[KingSparta]

I found that MC was consuming more and more resources.  Recently it's been taking ~80+ percent of my CPU to just play music.

Not sure why, does not happen for me.

I do have 1 Gig of ram, and 5+ terabytes on this thing

Normaly the things i have running, is a FTP Server, Windows Oncare, And "TuneUp 2007" Memory Optimizer

Normaly anything else that boots up out of the norm i turn it off from booting, or i close it.

[Magic_Randy]

KingSparta,

Are you also using Windows Defender?  That was installed as part of Windows One Care.

I'm not sure why this happens either.  Both MC and System were eating up CPU when MC was playing music with One Care & Defender running.  MC alone was 60-80% and system was 10-20%.  As soon as I uninstalled One Care & Defender the CPU utilization was way down.

My PC is a 3.2 P4 with 1gb ram.

I also find that MC is not very tolerant of high CPU utilization.  It starts skipping.  Otherwise I wouldn't care how much CPU is being used.

[KingSparta]

Are you also using Windows Defender?

Yes but You Can keep it from loading when the system boots

you can turn it off in the program in "Tools > Options >" And Go All The Way To The Bottom And Turn Off "Use Windows Defender"

Or

you can manualy move the registry key from "Run" To "Run-"

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run\Windows Defender

To

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run-\Windows Defender

"Run-" Is just a place to hold the key and the correct parms

This will keep Windows Defender From Booting. if you manualy click on windows defender, the program will tell you in a message box that windows defender is off, and it will give you an option to turn it on.

[jgreen]

Randy, was the skipping directly related to CPU usage?  Or is that just the most likely culprit you found?  Because Norton was a rip-snortin skipper for me, and it wasn't due to CPU usage, it was norton hindering the interaction between MC and the system.

ASIO, or at least ASIO4all, seems vulnerable to a/v bullies.  As I recall, you're running ASIO4all.  So if you see issues with ZA, go into "program control" and elevate the priviledges for both MC and ASIO4all.  Also, right-click on each entry, select "options", and make sure "allow program interaction" is selected.

[Magic_Randy]

Randy, was the skipping directly related to CPU usage?  Or is that just the most likely culprit you found?  Because Norton was a rip-snortin skipper for me, and it wasn't due to CPU usage, it was norton hindering the interaction between MC and the system.

ASIO, or at least ASIO4all, seems vulnerable to a/v bullies.  As I recall, you're running ASIO4all.  So if you see issues with ZA, go into "program control" and elevate the priviledges for both MC and ASIO4all.  Also, right-click on each entry, select "options", and make sure "allow program interaction" is selected.

I'm just guessing that the skipping is related to CPU usage, because it only appears to skip when the CPU usage is ~90-100%.  Norton gave me a lot of trouble before I uninstalled it. It did not get along well with MC. It also consumed way too much of my PC - and significantly increased the time to boot up. 

I'll play around with the ZA settings.

I stopped using ASIO4ALL.  I went back to Wave Out.

[jmmttu77]

Time for my report on Windows One Care.

I used the 90 day trial for the past month.  Today I un-installed it.  EDIT: Both Windows One Care and Windows Defender

I found that MC was consuming more and more resources.  Recently it's been taking ~80+ percent of my CPU to just play music.  That's without visualizations, plug-ins, etc.  So I un-installed One Care, turned on all my plug-ins, and started playing music.  CPU usage when playing music is now ~10%.  Note: this is not all MC - it includes FF2, Task Manager, & whatever else is running in background.

So next I'll try ZoneAlarm.  Their new version is now out of beta and they have a 15 day trial.

Thanks for the good info here.  I will be interested to know ZoneAlarm rates.  Someone said it was great until you needed to uninstall it??? Wonder why.

For the past three years, I have been using Trend Micro's PC-cillin with great results.  For me, it seems like a fairly lightweight program that did not consume many resources.  The version I am running now is PC-cillin Internet Security 2006, which I am pleased with.  BUT...I did try out upgrading to the 2007 version and it was HORRIBLE, not a lightweight program at all.  My computer would barely run with it, so I rolled back to the 2006 version and all was great again.  In a few months when my subscription is up I will be on the hunt for a new all-in-one solution.

[Magic_Randy]

I've been playing around with ZoneAlarm on 2 different PCs (I purchased a 3 PC license for the ZoneAlarm Internet Security).

From reading up on it, and from advice of friends, ZA comes highly recommended.  That being said, it's almost driven me nuts a few times.  I ended up uninstalling it a couple of times and almost requested a refund from the company.  At this point, I think I've figured it out, so it's a keeper.

The first time I installed it, I used all of the default options.  This includes an option to automatically configure the firewall and to automatically learn.  The auto learn function starts the security settings low and raises them over time.  Everything was fine when I started, but it was like a boa constrictor over time.  Everything was slowing down or locking up.  So now I don't use these options.  I do everything manually so I can see what is going on.

I also found it is better to run through all of the standard programs you use to get as many of the ZA alerts out of the way.

I also found a problem that can really get you tied up.  When you uninstall ZA, it turns on Windows Firewall.  I guess that is OK, but it does not automatically turn Windows Firewall off when you install ZA.  Having another firewall running when ZA is installed is a very bad thing.  The PC gets all tied up.

I also found it is better to progressively install all of the features of ZA.  I start with the firewall.  When that is stable, I turn on other things like virus checking and/or spyware checking.  Do not use ZA virus checking and another virus checker at the same time.  That's another area where everything gets locked up.

Your experience may be different, but I suggest:
1) make sure other firewalls are not running before you start
2) make sure there are not running other virus checkers
3) do not use all of their auto options.  If there are issues, you are better off seeing those as you go
4) Install it progressively letting each feature stabilize before you proceed (e.g. firewall, then spyware, ...)

If you use the firewall only, there is a free one and one with more features for a price.  If you are buying anything, I suggest making sure you can stabilize everything using the trial versions first.  That will simplify matters in case you decide to give up.

[jgreen]

Randy--

My apologies, I just noticed your "latest" post almost a month later.

I'm sorry to hear about your initial experiences with ZA, and I'm glad it worked out in the end.  I can't help thinking that if I had been more specific/correct in my original advice regarding "default settings" I might have saved you some pain.

For those installing ZA, my strong recommendation is to check the settings under
"Program control/Main/Program Control/Custom".  Here you will find the settings for "Program Control" and "OS Firewall".  "Advanced Program control" settings, as well as "Component Control" should all be OFF, until you're rady to try and tame that "boa constrictor".  These are very powerful and restrictive operations.  I got so fed up trying to finesse them that I continue to default to "off" and then manually restrict prgrams via the "Programs" tab in the same section.

[jgreen]

On a lighter note, for conspiracy theorists out there (like me), who are certain that MSFT is a devious front organization for malicious Space Aliens determined to bring Planet Earth to its knees, there's this encouraging info:

Reportedly (and I'm going to mangle the details), Windows One Care, at least with certain sys configs, quarratined users MSFT Office mailboxes, basically hiding their entire stored email collection.  Apparently the Windows One Care dev group was too lazy to do compatibility testing on MSFT's own flagship product!  Break compatibility with your biggest revenue-generator?  I love these guys!

[Magic_Randy]

For those installing ZA, my strong recommendation is to check the settings under
"Program control/Main/Program Control/Custom".  Here you will find the settings for "Program Control" and "OS Firewall".  "Advanced Program control" settings, as well as "Component Control" should all be OFF, until you're rady to try and tame that "boa constrictor".  These are very powerful and restrictive operations.  I got so fed up trying to finesse them that I continue to default to "off" and then manually restrict prgrams via the "Programs" tab in the same section.

jgreen,

I have everything working just fine now. Thanks for your comments.  While the tip listed above would have helped, your earlier comments gave me enough information to work through it.

I think ZA is a good solution, but for many people it is too hard to handle.  I friend of mine just installed ZA Internet Security last week.  He had been using the the free version of the firewall for years, so he was very familiar with it.  He is also very technical.  After he upgraded, he struggled for days to get everything to settle down.

[Shelly]

I own both ZA pro and TrendMicro.  I really liked Trend but could not resolve the ridiculously long loading time, so went back to ZA suite, which in it's lastest version is outstanding.  Unfortunately, it's not yet compatible with Vista, so I'm using Nod32. (Still using ZA suite on my XP laptop)  I'm a little uncomfortable without a software firewire solution, but will live with Vista's firewall and my router for the time being.  Although, I don't keep them loaded, I periodically run Spybot and Adware to double check my system.

For those who are using OneCare, you might find this of interest:

http://www.betanews.com/article/OneCare_Fails_Second_Antivirus_Test/1173202492

and this:

http://www.betanews.com/article/OneCare_Deletes_Users_Outlook_Files/1173474996

[globetrotters1]

My 2 cents:

With a lot of years of experience I'm not at all convinced with the Micro$oft products. Less with time. And I read a few documents which really make you think. MS gets too much power and intends to use it. Not that I wouldn't find Bill Gates a good guy... but I'm against any monopolistic world!

Well, that said and because of real concerns (Big Brother is watching you), I use

1. as Firewall the Sygate firewall, simple and easy to use, blocks in- AND outgoing network traffic at user's will (unfortunately sold to Symantec); I can only warn of Sygate (Norton) products, they nearly kill your operating system and are intrusive like nothing else

2. as a virus scanner I use NOD32, the choice of the professionals, not intrusive at all, quick, small footprint, automatically updated etc. pp (I'd never but NEVER use Norton, it's the plain contrary!)

3. as a spyware checker I used to use Spyware Doctor... but since they try to change to a program type "I-do-everything" and since I have to download 4 MB per day I stopped using it; it also seems to slow down your system; if you're a bit careful with what you do and if you're always erasing your browser history when leaving the program it shouldn't be such a problem (I never had one at least, I also don't click on every pop-up box...)

so far, my tips

Martin

[InflatableMouse]

I don't use a firewall on my pc; my router has one and blocks all incoming traffic. I don't use outlook express, and I don't use internet explorer. last but certainly not least, I browse the web like I walk down the street; I see a wrong neighborhood I turn around immediately. I certainly don't go there intentionally.

I don't use antivirus software; it is the biggest hog known to man, its outrageous resource hungry and its the cause of many many pc crashes, blue screens etc. I'll go as far as stating that antivirus products ARE the virus. Thanks but I'll pass.

If you have got to have an antivirus product, try AVG. It is free and has been tested multiple times to be among the best products. Not to mention it is one of the lightest programs out there. You will hardly notice it running on a reasonably fast pc.

[johnnyboy]

Haven't read this whole thread because to be honest I cant be bothered with all this type of stuff - it just slows down my PC.

I protect it by just being a tech savy careful user.

Best spyware app thou bar none in my experience personally and fixing PC's for others though is that Spyware Doctor is by FAR the best spyware solution out there. Fixes and finds a TON of stuff that the others happily dont detect and before any of you say thats probably because they're making it up, its not - I've used it on machines that I know have a problem, the others happily report that the machine is fine while random pop-up's are shooting up all over the place, etc. and spyware doctor cleans the system out.

[KingSparta]

Spyware Doctor is by FAR the best spyware solution out there

Spyware Doctor And Microsoft Defender Both Based On The "Giant Antispyware" product And Microsoft bought the source code, and maybe the company (i forget now).

I do happen to own both (i actually own about 10 of this type of software) but only run one all the time, and maybe once a month run the others to check the system for Spy software, cookies and the like.

I protect it by just being a tech savy careful user.

I heard that story many times before right before the users computer caught a virus, then begged me to fix it for them.

[datdude]

I just started using www.activevirusshield.com.  Its free and seems to do a great job.  Low system resources and seems to catch most everything.

[johnnyboy]

Spyware Doctor And Microsoft Defender Both Based On The "Giant Antispyware" product And Microsoft bought the source code, and maybe the company (i forget now).

I do happen to own both (i actually own about 10 of this type of software) but only run one all the time, and maybe once a month run the others to check the system for Spy software, cookies and the like.

I heard that story many times before right before the users computer caught a virus, then begged me to fix it for them.

If they're begging you to fix it then they're obviously not that techie as they would otherwise fix it themselves.

I'm not saying its the solution for everyone, but for those of us that can use it theres no reason not to.

I ran happily without AV or Spyware checker on my personal machine at home for 3+yrs without getting anything so I think i pretty much proved if you know what your doing you can be perfectly safe without bogging down your machine with tons of resource hoggers.

[KingSparta]

It is hard nowadays not to get something

Mostly from the Internet where some sites start to push a activex program to your browser, or force you to download something from there site.

some users have some of the options turned off in the browser that may help them from catching something.

The other night I had a dream, nightmare really where I hacked into a site, and the admin caught me, and they hacked me back and got in and formatted my drives as I was watching. I woke up at 3am or so sweating just about when i was going to kick the computer. it is a good thing I did not start kicking the wife for at the moment she can't kick back.

Even the best of techies will sometimes get caught with there pants down around there ankles (I have been tinkering with them for over 30 years), I prefer not to be one of them (been there done that).

[GHammer]

I recommend a UPnP router to my relatives nowadays. Keeps unwanted traffic away from the system.
I do not run a firewall, I have a network monitor that shows how many connections and in/out bandwidth. If I see unexpected activity, I look to see what is using the connection.
I use KAV right now, but I like Trend too. NOD got me on a false positive a while back and caused much grief deleting all self extracting RAR files from my system. I'm normally not real forgiving when my data vanishes.
For spyware and the like I think it is very hard to beat SUPERAntiSpyware. They have a free and Professional version. The free version has the same scan/find/remove ability as the Pro, it just is not resident.
When I really suspect something, I use online scans to check the file. Hard to beat multiple scans by a system that is not potentially compromised.
Three I like are:
Jotti
VirusTotal
Virus.Org

[Tab]

Re high CPU use, is MC less robust than MJ, or was something else going on? I run various kit from modern machines to dinos, and a while back I had MJ on an old 433. MJ8 routinely took it to 99-100% CPU & RAM use, and MJ8 was fine with that, sound never missed a beat. Visi performance was patchy, but sound no problem.

My one and only play with MS Defender on XP produced an error log 5G in size, as well as other problems. To fail to limit error log size is a remarkably basic mistake, typical of MS software. Software that broken (5G of plain text!!) I dont have much use for.


Tab

[risingdamp]

I recently ditched Kerio in favour of Comodo Personal Firewall after receiving a recommendation and reading some good reviews.  I'm very glad I did as it works brilliantly.  I also use AVG free which has also proved to be very reliable.

[Magic_Randy]

Anyone have feedback regarding the new 2008 suites?

I've been using ZA for this past year on a couple of Windows XP PCs. Santa is coming by shortly to drop off some new Vista notebooks, so I have to decide again on what is the best solution. As 2 of the PCs are for my kids, I would prefer a suite that is:

1) complete - at least for Firewall, Spyware, and Virus
2) light on the system resources
3) easy to manage for the non-technical

I've looked at:

1) Norton IS 2008 & Norton 360 - more convinced then ever not to go back to them
2) McAfee Total Protection 2008 - their downloads don't work, and there support does not answer
3) OneCare - too basic
4) BitDefender Total Security 2008 - errors when running on XP - don't know about Vista
5) Panda IS 2008 - appears to work fine on XP
6) ZoneAlarm 7 - may stay with this, but I would prefer something easier for the kids to manage

[KingSparta]

I have

System Mechanic Professional 7

But never installed the firewall or Anti Virus Part of it.

I Dumped Windows One Care Since It Irritated Me because I have some drives i don't want scanned, the Defrag and Anti-Virus never finished because i have too many drives\storage capacity online.

I have been using Diskeeper 2008 Pro for Defrag, more because Microsoft included windows Xp Defrag also from Diskeeper and not from Symantec as they have done in years gone past (there must be a reason). Diskeeper 2008 Pro is a bit steep in price however.

I Also Bought Norton SystemWorks Premier 2008, And I Am Using Norton Anti Virus 2008

I did not want to get Norton Internet Security 2008 or Norton 360 All-In-One Security because the firewall causes too many problems for me with disk access, and that does include problems i have seen with it and Media Center. I have not seen the problems I had before With Norton Internet Security 2006 & 2007