Topic: Playing m4a and mp4 files with something OTHER than the QT engine. (Read 8845 times)

lalittle · « **on:** March 08, 2007, 06:54:37 pm »

I'm having some trouble playing m4a and mp4 files (mainly podcasts) over library server (and even on the server in some cases) due to the 64 character filename limitation with the QuickTime engine. I'm trying to figure out the best workaround for this (possibly creating a mapped drive to eliminate much of the directory path), but I'm wondering if there is an alternative to using the QT engine to playing these files in MC. I tried setting them to use Directshow in the MC playback settings, but it doesn't work -- the files simply don't play, and I don't know how to proceed with the advanced Directshow filter settings.

Thanks for any help with this,

Larry

Yaobing · « **Reply #1 on:** March 16, 2007, 08:35:04 pm »

The problem with mp4 in DirectShow is that the source file filters do not seem to handle streaming well.

Try this:

Select "File Source (Netshow URL)" from Source Filters list, and "MP4 Splitter" and "FFDShow MPEG-4 Video Decoder" from Other filters list.

lalittle · « **Reply #2 on:** March 17, 2007, 02:58:08 am »

Thanks for the feedback.

I apparently need to download and install the "ffdshow" filters/codecs in order to try your suggestion, but I'm not sure of a "safe" place to download these. I can see a lot of sites offering the ffdshow mpeg 4 decoder, but I'd like to make sure I get it from a proper, trusted source. What site do you suggest for this?

Thanks,

Larry

lalittle · « **Reply #3 on:** March 17, 2007, 03:25:00 am »

On this same subject, can both Quicktime Alternative AND the real Quicktime be installed at the same time? I have some apps that require Quicktime, so I need to keep in on my system, but if I ALSO install QT Alternative, will I be able to select this as an alternate option for m4a and mp4 files in MC? If so, how would I do this? I'm rather confused by the various selections you can make in the DirectShow filters setup page.

Thanks,

Larry

Magic_Randy · « **Reply #4 on:** March 17, 2007, 10:13:07 am »

Quote from: lalittle on March 17, 2007, 02:58:08 am

Thanks for the feedback.

I apparently need to download and install the "ffdshow" filters/codecs in order to try your suggestion, but I'm not sure of a "safe" place to download these. I can see a lot of sites offering the ffdshow mpeg 4 decoder, but I'd like to make sure I get it from a proper, trusted source. What site do you suggest for this?

Thanks,

Larry

You may want to download CCCP pack which includes ffdshow.

http://www.cccp-project.net/

There is also a nice thread started by Yaobing on directshow playback.

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=39509.msg268939#msg268939

BartMan01 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 17, 2007, 01:26:47 pm »

Quote from: lalittle on March 17, 2007, 02:58:08 am

Thanks for the feedback.

I apparently need to download and install the "ffdshow" filters/codecs in order to try your suggestion, but I'm not sure of a "safe" place to download these. I can see a lot of sites offering the ffdshow mpeg 4 decoder, but I'd like to make sure I get it from a proper, trusted source. What site do you suggest for this?

Thanks,

Larry

Why not just get them from the current SourceForge page: http://sourceforge.net/projects/ffdshow-tryout/

glynor · « **Reply #6 on:** March 17, 2007, 03:41:48 pm »

The Sourceforge Tryouts can sometimes be unstable. I~~'m also not sure who's actually running that project and building them.~~ (I figured it out and they're fine.) I used to use Celtic Druid's builds, but CCCP has been very stable and trouble free for me (it's quite well tested before release).

lalittle · « **Reply #7 on:** March 17, 2007, 03:54:49 pm »

Any comments/opinions on the "3ivx" package? This is not free, but it's only $6.95, so if it works well, it would be worth it.

Thanks,

Larry

glynor · « **Reply #8 on:** March 18, 2007, 01:33:21 pm »

3ivx is just another MPEG-4 ASP codec, similar to XviD and DivX. It has a few nice features but generally loses in encoding quality to newer versions of XviD (which is free), though not by much. I use it mainly for playback of some file types on Mac OSX where they don't have good, stable open source decoders available.

There's really not much 3ivx can do that XviD/FFDSHOW/CCCP can't for Windows. It is nice that it has a well supported filter pack included, but so is CCCP+XviD and you don't have to cough up any money!

BartMan01 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 18, 2007, 02:05:56 pm »

Quote from: lalittle on March 08, 2007, 06:54:37 pm

the 64 character filename limitation with the QuickTime engine

The issue here is that MC by default renames the files when it downloads them, and the renamed files are not compatible with quicktime. Change the podcast handling defaults so that the original filename is retained and this will be fixed. I had asked for this to be changed in the defaults, but I guess it fell on deaf ears.

lalittle · « **Reply #10 on:** March 18, 2007, 04:01:35 pm »

Quote from: BartMan01 on March 18, 2007, 02:05:56 pm

The issue here is that MC by default renames the files when it downloads them, and the renamed files are not compatible with quicktime. Change the podcast handling defaults so that the original filename is retained and this will be fixed. I had asked for this to be changed in the defaults, but I guess it fell on deaf ears.

I already tried that. The problem is that with the 23 extra characters that Library Server adds, along with even a relatively short path, the filenames STILL go over the 64 character limit. You use up the 64 characters faster than you'd think.

Larry

lalittle · « **Reply #11 on:** March 19, 2007, 06:08:48 am »

Okay -- I installed the CCCP pack, and my initial tests seem to indicate that I can now play m4a and mp4 files over Library Server without the 64 character filename issue. However, there are some new problems now.

First, with mp4 files, I used to see the video in the AW and on the Playing Now screen when playing these podcasts. With the CCCP pack installed, however, neither of these windows shows the video for these files. Instead, something called the "Activemovie Window" pops up displaying the video. This is not part of MC, and is not integrated into it.

How do I get the video for these files to display in the AW and PN screens like it used to before the CCCP pack was installed?

Second, when I tried to play AAC+ streaming radio stations, I got a "Haali Media Splitter" error saying "can't open file: Unspecified error." I re-installed the Orban plugin for playing AAC/AAC+ streams, and I continue to receive this error when trying to play the streams, but after I hit "Okay" to this error, the stream starts playing. It appears that the Haali Media Splitter is attempting to play these files, but that it can't, and MC then tries (successfully) using the Orban plugin.

I looked through the settings for the CCCP pack, the Haali Splitter, and MC, but nothing I try works.

Could somebody give me some help in getting this to work?

Thanks,

Larry

lalittle · « **Reply #12 on:** March 19, 2007, 06:34:35 am »

Is there perhaps some way of disabling the Haali Splitter when playing AAC/AAC+ streams? It appears that it cannot play them anyway, so I don't understand why it's trying in the first place, but I can't find any settings anywhere where I could stop Haali from being used to play these files.

Note that I did try playing with the Directshow settings in MC, but this only causes LONG pauses, and the stream usually doesn't play at ALL at this point. It may also be important to note that even when I choose a filter OTHER than the Haali Splitter in the MC Directshow settings, I STILL get the Haali error message.

Thanks again for any help with this,

Larry

bspachman · « **Reply #13 on:** March 19, 2007, 07:28:59 am »

Quote from: lalittle on March 19, 2007, 06:34:35 am

Is there perhaps some way of disabling the Haali Splitter when playing AAC/AAC+ streams? It appears that it cannot play them anyway, so I don't understand why it's trying in the first place, but I can't find any settings anywhere where I could stop Haali from being used to play these files.

Note that I did try playing with the Directshow settings in MC, but this only causes LONG pauses, and the stream usually doesn't play at ALL at this point. It may also be important to note that even when I choose a filter OTHER than the Haali Splitter in the MC Directshow settings, I STILL get the Haali error message.

I don't know enough about filters and their filetype registering to really answer you (perhaps Glynor or Yaobing will weigh in), but in my version of Haali, there's an option to disable error messages that may be of use. I'm running v1.6.333.21 according to the properties page. On the options page for the Haali Media Spliter, go to the 'Interface' section and see if 'Display Error Messages' is set to Yes or No.

Perhaps this will at least mask the errors you are seeing...

brad

Yaobing · « **Reply #14 on:** March 19, 2007, 09:27:44 am »

About "ActiveMovie Window":

It appears that MC tried to play mp4 as audio file. I will take a look.

About error message from Haali:

This has to be the most annoying "feature" of Haali media splitter. Do what Brad said. If your version of Haali does not have that option, you have two options:

1. glynor posted sometime ago that there is a new version of CCCP (beta?). In that installation Haali has the option to turn off error message.

2. Find a newer version of Haali and install it (to the same folder where CCCP installed it). A link can be found in DirectShow Guide/FAQ thread. On the Haali Media Splitter page, the actual download link is at the upper right corner. Click the word "MatroskaSplitter".

glynor · « **Reply #15 on:** March 19, 2007, 10:41:54 am »

Quote from: Yaobing on March 19, 2007, 09:27:44 am

About "ActiveMovie Window":

It appears that MC tried to play mp4 as audio file. I will take a look.

About error message from Haali:

This has to be the most annoying "feature" of Haali media splitter. Do what Brad said. If your version of Haali does not have that option, you have two options:

1. glynor posted sometime ago that there is a new version of CCCP (beta?). In that installation Haali has the option to turn off error message.

2. Find a newer version of Haali and install it (to the same folder where CCCP installed it). A link can be found in DirectShow Guide/FAQ thread. On the Haali Media Splitter page, the actual download link is at the upper right corner. Click the word "MatroskaSplitter".

The current, non-beta, build of CCCP includes a version of Haali with that option. It's been in all of the Haali builds since late October of 2006.

Agreed. That is the most annoying feature of Haali. I actually went to the Haali and CCCP forums and complained over and over until the error suppression option was added. Their initial response was "we want to know about the errors so we can fix them". I told them that was all fine and good for a developer, but for people who just wanted to use the stuff...

lalittle · « **Reply #16 on:** March 19, 2007, 02:03:30 pm »

Unfortunately, suppressing the error message doesn't solve the issue since it takes about two minutes for the error message to come up -- MC "seems" to be locked up during this time, but it eventually comes back. Even if I disable the error message, it still takes the streams two minutes or so to start playing, which obviously is not a viable solution. This wasn't a problem before CCCP was installed -- there was only a slight pause before the streams began.

It seems like the problem is that the Haali Splitter shouldn't be trying to play the streams in the first place. I believe I need the Haali splitter in order to play m4a and mp4 files instead of QT (in order to get around the 64 character filename limit), but I don't think the Haali splitter can play AAC+ streams. Orban CAN play these, and I "think" that it IS playing them eventually, but not until Haali tries and times out. Am I correct on this? If so, how do I get Haali to stop trying to play these streams? I've tried NUMEROUS variations in MC's directshow settings, but the error message always comes up.

Any further help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Larry

Yaobing · « **Reply #17 on:** March 19, 2007, 02:24:47 pm »

There probably isn't anything that can be done about the delay. The DirectShow filter that can load streaming media has to download a large amount (possibly the entire file) before it can figure out what to do about it. This is possibly unique to Quicktime media. Unless someone comes up with a "Quicktime Source filter" that can handle streaming QT media, there is no better solution.

By the way, the "ActiveMovie Window" was indeed caused by a bug. The fix will appear in build 195 or later.

lalittle · « **Reply #18 on:** March 19, 2007, 04:45:57 pm »

Quote from: Yaobing on March 19, 2007, 02:24:47 pm

There probably isn't anything that can be done about the delay. The DirectShow filter that can load streaming media has to download a large amount (possibly the entire file) before it can figure out what to do about it. This is possibly unique to Quicktime media. Unless someone comes up with a "Quicktime Source filter" that can handle streaming QT media, there is no better solution.

There seems to be some confusion here. The problem is definitely caused by CCCP, which CAN'T play the AAC+ streams, but for some reason it keeps trying anyway. In other words, when I install the CCCP pack, I get the Haali error message after 2 minutes. When I OK this message, I get another message saying that the file cannot be played. If I then load the Orban plugin, I get the same Haali error, but when I hit OK. the stream starts to play. If I DON'T install the CCCP pack and ONLY install the Orban plugin, these same streams load in a few seconds and play fine.

To recap:

Orban plugin only -- the streams play fine
CCCP pack only -- Haali error, then the streams don't play.
CCCP pack AND Orban plugin -- Haali error, then the streams DO play.

In other words, the streams CAN play without the delay, but NOT when the CCCP pack is installed. The problems seems to be the fact that the Haali splitter is being used AT ALL when trying to play these streams since this splitter cannot play these streams in the first place. Is there a way to prevent the Haali splitter from being used when attempting to play these files? As I said, I tried playing with the MC Directshow settings, but I have not found any settings that make it work.

Quote

By the way, the "ActiveMovie Window" was indeed caused by a bug. The fix will appear in build 195 or later.

That's good news.

Thanks,

Larry

lalittle · « **Reply #19 on:** March 19, 2007, 05:00:43 pm »

One aspect of this that I don't understand seems to potentially be at the heart of the problem:

When I go into the MC Directshow settings for the AAC filetype and change it to something specifically NOT the Haali splitter, I STILL get the Haali Splitter error. Why is this? Why does MC attempt to use the Haali Splitter FIRST even though it is NOT checked in the list?

Thanks,

Larry

lalittle · « **Reply #20 on:** March 19, 2007, 05:15:36 pm »

Okay -- I little trial and error progress.

For the AAC file Directshow settings in MC, I selected "File Source (Netshow URL)" from Source Filters list, and "FFDShow Audio Decoder" from Other filters list. (Similar to what was suggested above, but not the same.)

I found that while the Haali error still popped up, the stream would start playing MUCH more quickly. I therefore disabled the Haali error messages, and now the streams start up relatively quickly without the error.

Even though it's generally working as it should now, I'd STILL be very interested in feedback to me previous questions -- namely, why the Haali splitter is STILL being used first when trying to play AAC streams even AFTER I tell MC to use another filter.

UPDATE It also seems significant that even though I'm telling MC to use the FFDShow filter, I STILL need the Orban plugin to play the AAC+ streams. If I uninstall the Orban plugin and keep the same settings in MC, the streams do not play.

I guess I just don't understand the way the Directshow filter settings in MC work. There doesn't seem to be any logical connection between the filter settings and the way playback is effected. Any other help/explanation on this would be appreciated.

Thanks again,

Larry

Yaobing · « **Reply #21 on:** March 19, 2007, 05:39:28 pm »

Quote from: lalittle on March 19, 2007, 04:45:57 pm

There seems to be some confusion here.

Sorry I was indeed confused. I thought you were talking about slow start of mp4 podcast/stream, when in fact you were talking about AAC+ stream.

Here is how MC tries to play any media in DirectShow:

1. It tries to use user selected filters.

2. If any user selected filter would not work, DirectShow would try finding a suitable filter. Depending on what filters you have on your computer, this may take some time. This is where Haali splitter jumps in. This filter is too eager to jump in even if it can not handle the media. Unfortunately when Haali filter jumps in it tend to take longer when Haali can not handle the file.

Having said all this, I should mention I have not experienced the same delay as you did.

Yaobing · « **Reply #22 on:** March 19, 2007, 06:01:03 pm »

Quote from: lalittle on March 19, 2007, 05:15:36 pm

UPDATE It also seems significant that even though I'm telling MC to use the FFDShow filter, I STILL need the Orban plugin to play the AAC+ streams. If I uninstall the Orban plugin and keep the same settings in MC, the streams do not play.

Most filters can not handle AAC+. Orban is the only one I found that can do it.

lalittle · « **Reply #23 on:** March 19, 2007, 06:36:37 pm »

Quote from: Yaobing on March 19, 2007, 06:01:03 pm

Most filters can not handle AAC+. Orban is the only one I found that can do it.

But why is the Haali filter attempting to play the file, and why does it STILL attempt to play the file even after I specifically set up the MC filter settings to NOT use Haali? THIS is what is confusing me -- i.e. how to get Haali to STOP trying to play the file.

Thanks,

Larry

glynor · « **Reply #24 on:** March 19, 2007, 07:23:42 pm »

Larry, I think what's happening is...

The DirectShow API will try to auto-configure a filter chain which works if the selected one fails. So, whatever filter combination you have selected in MC is failing, and Haali has the next highest "merit" score (like a priority setting) for that particular codec type, so DirectShow tries Haali next. You're looking at it like it keeps trying Haali first, but if you have something manually configured in MC, then this is very likely not the case.

If you want to "demote" Haali so that it's never used temporarily as a test, you can manually change it's merit score. The application DirectShow Filter Manager can do this. Download it here: http://www.free-codecs.com/download/DirectShow_Filter_Manager.htm

Then open the app and find Haali Media Splitter in the list. Double click on it and set the Merit Score to Do not use and click the Set new merit button. I don't think the changes take effect until you close and reopen MC, though I could be wrong there. This will, unfortunately because of the way DirectShow works, make it NEVER use Haali for any media type. That's how it works. If it is an "allowed" filter, and it supports the playback type (even badly), DirectShow will try to use it (figuring something is better than nothing). Filters are tried in the order of their Merit scores. That's why having multiple different codecs or filters which all support the same formats can be a Very Bad Thing^TM.

lalittle · « **Reply #25 on:** March 20, 2007, 12:14:43 am »

Thanks for the details glynor.

Okay -- that sounds logical, so assuming you're correct, do you have any idea of what I SHOULD check in MC's settings so that it uses the right codec the FIRST time? As I said, I have the CCCP pack and the Orban plugin installed. I would "think" that checking the Orban filter would be the right one, but I can't get this to work. If I check Orban, what should I check in the SECOND window?

Thanks again for the help,

Larry

lalittle · « **Reply #26 on:** March 20, 2007, 05:04:03 am »

Quote from: glynor on March 19, 2007, 07:23:42 pm

The DirectShow API will try to auto-configure a filter chain which works if the selected one fails. So, whatever filter combination you have selected in MC is failing, and Haali has the next highest "merit" score (like a priority setting) for that particular codec type, so DirectShow tries Haali next. You're looking at it like it keeps trying Haali first, but if you have something manually configured in MC, then this is very likely not the case.

Is there any way of telling what filter MC currently ends up using when playing these streams? I was thinking that I could reverse the process, meaning I'd see what filters MC currently uses to play the streams, and then tell MC to use THESE settings first. It seems like this would allow me to prevent the Haali error, but I have no idea how to tell what filters MC is currently using when the streams play.

Thanks,

Larry

Yaobing · « **Reply #27 on:** March 20, 2007, 05:53:29 am »

Larry,

Unfortunately, it is not possible with aac+ streaming for you to preselect correct set of filters. For now, the use of Orban plugin (which is actually a source filter) involves some hacking. There is no good way to get it into the graph the first time. I do not intend to spend too much time to tailor my code to a third-party program.

For all other formats, just right-click and choose "DirectShow Filters" while playing. You will see the list of filters listed.

Yaobing

lalittle · « **Reply #28 on:** March 20, 2007, 06:07:07 am »

Quote from: Yaobing on March 20, 2007, 05:53:29 am

Larry,

Unfortunately, it is not possible with aac+ streaming for you to preselect correct set of filters. For now, the use of Orban plugin (which is actually a source filter) involves some hacking. There is no good way to get it into the graph the first time. I do not intend to spend too much time to tailor my code to a third-party program.

For all other formats, just right-click and choose "DirectShow Filters" while playing. You will see the list of filters listed.

Yaobing

Thanks Yaobing -- that would explain why I wasn't seeing any differences when trying all those combinations of filter settings in MC, which was driving me nutty. I just wish I would have know this a couple days ago before I started trying all those settings.

So it's JUST AAC+ streams that have this issue -- i.e. AAC streams do not?

The odd thing is that the "Orban" filter is in the left hand list in MC's settings -- it just doesn't make a difference to select it.

Just out of curiosity, do you recommend another filter/plugin other than the Orban one?

Thanks again for your help,

Larry

Yaobing · « **Reply #29 on:** March 20, 2007, 07:52:46 am »

Quote from: lalittle on March 20, 2007, 06:07:07 am

So it's JUST AAC+ streams that have this issue -- i.e. AAC streams do not?

Actually I myself have never tried any aac streams. I can not tell what will work.

Quote

Just out of curiosity, do you recommend another filter/plugin other than the Orban one?

As I mentioned yesterday, Orban is the only thing I found that works. There may be something else out there, but I am not aware of. One day I should try Winamp plugin.

glynor · « **Reply #30 on:** March 20, 2007, 10:28:34 am »

Larry... Can we have an example Podcast?

lalittle · « **Reply #31 on:** March 20, 2007, 03:46:06 pm »

Quote from: glynor on March 20, 2007, 10:28:34 am

Larry... Can we have an example Podcast?

Here's one that I've been playing with lately:

http://rss.adobe.com/www/special/light_room.rss

Larry

glynor · « **Reply #32 on:** March 20, 2007, 04:03:01 pm »

Cool. I'll mess with it tomorrow and see what I can come up with.

lalittle · « **Reply #33 on:** March 20, 2007, 04:34:26 pm »

Quote from: glynor on March 20, 2007, 04:03:01 pm

Cool. I'll mess with it tomorrow and see what I can come up with.

Thanks.

Note that I've recently been talking about AAC+ stream issues and NOT m4a and mp4 playback (i.e. podcast) issues. Since installing the CCCP pack, I am able to play these podcasts over Library Server again, so this filter pack DOES apparently solve the 64 character limit issue. My current issues are centered around AAC+ streams (from sites like SHOUTcast) and the fact that the Haali Splitter always insists on trying to play them even though it can't.

Thanks again,

Larry

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Author Topic: Playing m4a and mp4 files with something OTHER than the QT engine. (Read 8845 times)