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[audunth]

Hi!

Is there a way to use Dscaler as decoder for DVDs and then apply the FFDShow raw video filter for postprocessing? Or does FFDShow have to be used as the decoder to apply the postprocessing filters?

[Mike Noe]

No, if you choose Dscalar decoder, then you cannot take advantage of FFdshow image post-processing in this version.

If you choose FFDshow as the decoder (for MPEG2 I'm assuming in your case), then under the Codecs setup, change MPEG2 to "libmpeg2" and check the box for "DVD Decoding".  FFDshow will then do the decoding and you can apply post-processing filters depending on your CPU capability.

[audunth]

Okay, that's what I thought... Is there any plans to include the ability to add postprocessing filters in the future?

[Yaobing]

Okay, that's what I thought... Is there any plans to include the ability to add postprocessing filters in the future?

No, at least not in the near future. Some latest versions of FFDShow may be used to decode DVD.

[Yaobing]

No, if you choose Dscalar decoder, then you cannot take advantage of FFdshow image post-processing in this version.

If you choose FFDshow as the decoder (for MPEG2 I'm assuming in your case), then under the Codecs setup, change MPEG2 to "libmpeg2" and check the box for "DVD Decoding".  FFDshow will then do the decoding and you can apply post-processing filters depending on your CPU capability.

The version of FFDShow included in the latest CCCP does not have the option libmpeg2 for decoding MPEG2. The only option is "libavcodec", which works very poorly for DVD.

[Mastiff]

Slightly off topic, but still within FFDShow: Any progress on allowing use of FFDShow with TV viewing?

[Yaobing]

Slightly off topic, but still within FFDShow: Any progress on allowing use of FFDShow with TV viewing?

Not yet. I am still bogged down by other stuff.

[Mastiff]

OK, I'll try to be patient. Of course that's not what we vikings are mostly known for... But we are still talking about this version of MC, right?

[Mike Noe]

The version of FFDShow included in the latest CCCP does not have the option libmpeg2 for decoding MPEG2. The only option is "libavcodec", which works very poorly for DVD.

True, and that is one other reason that I have given up on CCCP for my setup.  I completely disagree with the CCCP team that the FFDshow tryouts team has not made tremendous progress as of late.  There was a ridiculous "showdown" recently amongst the two camps.

FWIW, the FFDshow Tryouts team has just released "Beta2", a very solid version of FFDShow and using "libmpeg2" for DVD decoding is working very well for me in MC12.  But, still at least one limitation:

Lanczos Resize produces some strange AR results in MC12, not seen in MPC.

[glynor]

FWIW, the FFDshow Tryouts team has just released "Beta2", a very solid version of FFDShow and using "libmpeg2" for DVD decoding is working very well for me in MC12.

I keep an eye on the FFDSHOW "tryouts" progress regularly.  I still have menu overlay issues with the "libmpeg2" component with some DVDs (even ones I've made myself), even with current builds.  It's not extremely common, and seems to have something to do with the specific colors chosen for overlay (though I'm really guessing here), but it's still not "quite there" IMHO.

Just in case anyone doesn't know, if you want a version of CCCP with the "tryouts" FFDSHOWs, they are available here:

http://www.cccp-project.net/beta/

I really think a better solution would be to allow us to use FFDSHOW (or anything else) as a post-processing filter.  That would be the most flexible solution.  To me... Gabest's MPEG2 decoder Just Works^TM.  Dscaler might be a tiny bit faster, nicer, cleaner, better; and FFDSHOW might be keener and more elegant, but I just want something that works 100% of the time with no headache.

Still ... I agree it'd be nice to be able to add on some post-processing from FFDSHOW as well.  That would be a great new feature, and would probably fit nicely with the other DirectShow improvements made in MC12.

MC12 is really turning out to be a massive improvement in video playback capabilities!  Thanks Yaobing (and everyone else)!

[Mastiff]

I agree. FFDShow's image quality (as far as I have seen in my limited tests) are not on par with dScaler 5. So the good thing would be to have free choice of DVD video decoder and then postprocessing both for DVD and TV (see, I managed to sneak that in again!) to improve the quality even further. I use FFDShow with AVISynth limit sharpen for DVD playback, and I can't really watch it without it. Then again I'm a bit on the picky side, I guess...

[glynor]

Then again I'm a bit on the picky side, I guess...

Nooooo.... Not you, Mastiff.      

[Yaobing]

I really think a better solution would be to allow us to use FFDSHOW (or anything else) as a post-processing filter. 

I tried it in GraphEdit. It just does not work. FFDShow video decoder refuses to be connected to the output pin of Dscaler video decoder (or MPV decoder for that matter). Is there any configuration to tweak with?

[glynor]

Not sure, but I believe TheaterTek allows you to do it.   ?

[Mastiff]

I suppose you mean FFDShow video processor, not video decoder, right? Hooking a video decoder up to another video decoder probably wouldn't do much good even if it was possible. My guess is that it's the color space. I use Zoom Player (gaasp!) for video playback in my HT because of a few special things I need, and to get FFDShow working I need to use YV12 output from dScaler 5, set codecs to raw only with YV12 and have this as the only output as well. Within there I have dScaler sharpen, Blur & NR, AVISynth scripting and resize and aspect settings. Since it works in Zoom, which is a pure DirecX player, it should work in MC as well. At least I would think so.

And Glynor, TT uses nVIDIA decoders, not dScaler. But the principles are the same, when it comes to color spaces and so on.

[Yaobing]

I suppose you mean FFDShow video processor, not video decoder, right?

There is no FFDShow video processor. I just figured out, both "FFDShow MPEG-4 Video Decoder" and "FFDShow Raw Video filter" will connect if configured correctly.

The trick seems to be "Raw Video", "All Supported".

[Mastiff]

Strange thing. On my system it's called FFDShow Raw Video Processor. But then it's an older version. There's still no version better than Andy's preview from August 2 2004 (specially coded for maximum effect of the sharpen, noise reduction and resize filters on a P4) for high quality video processing of DVD's. Glad you got it working, though!

[glynor]

And Glynor, TT uses nVIDIA decoders, not dScaler. But the principles are the same, when it comes to color spaces and so on.

I know, but (if I'm not crazy) you can set TT to use DScaler instead of the nVidia crap.  It's been a LONG time since I abandoned using TT though so I'm not sure.  I never watch actual DVDs anymore.   

[Mastiff]

I think you're crazy (so what else is new?). TT only uses the nVIDIA decoder. What do you watch? HD only?

[glynor]

I think you're crazy (so what else is new?). TT only uses the nVIDIA decoder. What do you watch? HD only?

Ain't that the truth.

No, not HD only.  I rip all my DVDs to disk and recode them to x264 MP4s.  I can't be bothered to actually get up and put optical discs in anymore when I want to watch a movie!  (And no matter where I store them, I always want to watch them from somewhere else.)

To me the importance of Convenience >= Quality.  And, honestly, with x264 and a good encode (proper settings, matrixes, and high enough VBR bitrates), I can't see the difference between the MPEG-4 AVC recode and the original MPEG-2.  I imagine you could, but you have better eyes and equipment than I do.   

[Mastiff]

That's exactly what I wouldn't do. If I were to rip all my DVD's, I would rip them movie only without converting aynthing (like DVDShrink can do). For me quality far outweighs convenience, and I only watch DVDs in the HT anyway.

As for seeing the difference the eyes were tuned by Lasik five years ago, and I still see like a hawk. And believe me, if you had a CRT projector with an 8 feet wide screen you would easily see the difference between A-B compares of the original DVD and any form for compression.

[glynor]

As for seeing the difference the eyes were tuned by Lasik five years ago, and I still see like a hawk. And believe me, if you had a CRT projector with an 8 feet wide screen you would easily see the difference between A-B compares of the original DVD and any form for compression.

Eh... Not so sure.  I quite often use one of these on a nice quality screen (and it's around 10' wide) and I really can't tell much of a difference.  Maybe a little in the deep blacks, but how much of that is the compression and how much of that is the LCD Projector?

The same certainly cannot be said of recoding to lower-bitrate MPEG-2 or MPEG-4 ASP (XviD), but x264 is really an amazingly nice codec.  Still, I'm also the type that would vote to just encode audio to LAME MP3 VBR -V 0 and call it good, as opposed to lossless or anything like that that makes it less portable and usable.  I tend to use a wide variety of different devices and computers, and portability, compatibility, and convenience are pretty important to me.

[Mastiff]

Believe me, there's quite a difference between a low end/midrange LCD and a finely tuned CRT. You will need to get a lot closer to this to match me: http://www.projectorcentral.com/Sony-VPL-VW100.htm Of course that one will beat the cr*p out of my Barco in some areas (sharpness and clarity), but loose in others (especially black level and details in dark areas). As you say black isn't really the favourite color of anything digital... So I would still say that a finely tuned CRT like mine would show you the difference. Another thing is that blowing an XGA projector up to 10' is a bit large. Aren't you bothered by the chicken fence effect?

[glynor]

Believe me, there's quite a difference between a low end/midrange LCD and a finely tuned CRT. You will need to get a lot closer to this to match me: http://www.projectorcentral.com/Sony-VPL-VW100.htm

Oh, I know.  I just don't know that I'd be able to tell the difference, unless you were sitting next to me and I was viewing them side by side and you were pointing out the differences, even though I have better than 20/20 vision.

And no, I don't see the chicken wire effect on mine.  I was saying 10' horizontal, not diagonal, BTW -- and that's a guess.  I don't know the measurements on the screen but it's quite a bit wider than I am tall.

The other projector that I use pretty regularly (in our auditorium at work) is one of these: http://www.projectorcentral.com/Sony-VPL-PX35_SuperBright.htm

It's also pretty nice, though again nothing like a high-quality CRT.

[glynor]

Of course... I've never really seen a "a finely tuned CRT" in person (I have seen a not-finely-tuned-at-all one but that's it), so my opinion is probably VERY skewed.   

[Mastiff]

Exactly. It's one of these things you'd have to see for yourself to believe. Like Las Vegas... Btw those SuperBrights are good for auditorium work and such, but worthless in a HT because the black level is even worse than a regular LCD. Actually a lot worse, since it's made to be watchable in daylight.

Btw I was slow answering because I was down in my HT watching two episodes from my DVD set of Stargate Atlantis while my wife was watching her CSI double feature on TV. Fantastic series that Atlantis! Vastly superior to the SG1 series, and even almost as good as the original movie!

[Mike Noe]

Mastiff, do you really see a significant difference between Dscaler5 and libmpeg2 on the decode?  I just demoed the latest ffDshow using Avisynth for colormatrix and resize against dscaler with no FFDshow and in addition to the higher CPU usage from Dscaler, the FFDshow only config presented a much sharper image.

Of course, I've only got ATI IGP 9100 and a Samsung 20" LCD....

I still can't get Dscaler to work with MC12, either CPU usage is so high, I get chop or the AR is all screwed up.  Any hints?  Maybe it's this old ATI video....

[Mastiff]

Yes. The FFDShow image is artificially sharp, with too much added "false" detail, which is probably why it looks better on a small LCD monitor. When using Avisynth I get a bit of artificial sharpness, but nothing near what FFDShow gives me, at least on my projector.

And yes, I would think that it's your video card. dScaler alone or together with FFDShow postprocessing eats more of both CPU and 3D GPU cycles, which is given back in the form of better image quality.

Edit: The same goes for HD formats that FFDShow supports - if you can use the best filters you'll get much better image quality, but with a slower computer (like my 3.2 mHz Prescott @ 3.9) you'll need to use FFDShow to avoid stuttering. Which is why I'm gonna get something faster soon...

[audunth]

I also got AR problems with MC12/dScaler or MC12/FFDShow on my laptop with an ATI 9600 card. Maybe it's the screen AR of 16:10 (1680x1050) it can't handle. It stretches the picture to full screen, like it was a 16:9 screen. Same with WinDVD. PowerDVD gives me the small black bars on the top and bottom and the correct AR.

I can get the correct AR also by adjusting the manual AR in FFDShow's Resize & aspect filter, but that's way too inconvenient.

[Mike Noe]

Try using AVISynth and a resize method other than Lanzcos, that solved the AR issues for my setup when using MC12, but my CPU is now up over 70%, which is cutting it close.

[Mastiff]

No, it's not. If my CPU's below 90 % when I play DVD's, I know that something's seriously wrong. To get the most in terms of picture quality you should have your PC working between 90 & 95 % CPU on resize. I usually hover around 95-96 %. If I go above 98 % that and it reacts too slow to commands (stop, pause and so on). I can run on 100 % without any stuttering in the movie at all.

If you need to drop Lanzcos (which is the best method for resizing, but not by that much, really) you should use bicubic instead. That's a very close number two in picture quality. I can see the difference with quick shifts between A-B of exactly the same source material (I have tried running two movies synchronous with two identical computers), but I can't see the difference if I'm just watching a few minutes of each. Which means that it's very close, and you will probably not miss out of much.