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[albrnick]

  Hello!

  Version 1.8 of the PS3 OS just got released which adds support for streaming from DLNA devices.  I fear I don't know alot about what this entails and tried to use the UPnP Sever in Media Center 12, but got the following errors:

05/24/07 01:06:10 - Cannot autodetect device, User-Agent: UPnP/1.0 DLNADOC/1.00
05/24/07 01:06:10 - Browse BrowseMetadata 0()
05/24/07 01:06:11 - Cannot autodetect device, User-Agent: UPnP/1.0
05/24/07 01:06:11 - Received request for device description

  Is there a way to use Media Center with the PS3?

  Thanks for your time,
   -Nick

[sbsp2]

I got MC12 to work...somewhat.

You have to tweak the uPnP options and play with the many checkbox options.  I choose Receiver = RokuSound bridge and got it work work for Photos only...for MP3s it just says 'unsupported data' on the PS3 screen

I'm still playing will all the checkboxes using Receiver = Advanced to see if I can get it to work.

[JimH]

If you get it, let us know the settings and we can add it.

[sbsp2]

Update:

Include SessionID option is the one that makes it NOT work (at all).

I tried various settings and MP3, WAV and WMA files and I just can't get audio to work   (just get "Unsupported Data" when I drill down to audio files)

JPG photos work fine (slick).  I don't have any videos in MC to serve up and test.

Hopefully, someone at JRiver can figure it out.

[John Gateley]

Do you have a UPnP Server it works with (provided with the PS3, or maybe twonkyvision?

j

[sbsp2]

I'm new to all this (first attempt to use uPnP).  So, No, MC12 is all I've ever tried.  I don't get how it all fits together.  If you want to offer something I can test on my PC to see if the PS3 can browse and play MP3s off my PC, that'd be great.

[JimH]

You're doing the right thing and you're doing pretty well.  UPnP is a standard, but different companies implement it differently, so we need to tweak the settings for just about every device we support.

If you'll just keep reporting what you find, gateley may be able to help.

There is also information in the wiki here.  See above.

[sbsp2]

Update:

I tried a video MPG file that will play on the PS3 (when attached via a USB thumb-drive) and got the same "Unsupported Data" error (for the file).

You can do Information on the unsupported files and it shows details like artist, title, genre.  But, the codec field and others are blank.

I'm guessing the MC uPnP server will need tweaking itself to support the PS3 (not just changing/tweaking options as I tried lots of combinations without success).  Perhaps JRiver can acquire a PS3 and test it all out (can't believe they don't have one already, they are awesome and the new 1.80 firmware makes the PS3s really, really nice!!).

[JimH]

Maybe, but you could help us solve this if you'd read the wiki and try sending a "network sniff".

[braham]

1. Setup Wireshark, started capture.

2. Started Media Center 12, Upnp server set for Roku Soundbridge (because that seems to work best)

3. On PS3, did search for network servers (26 sec in logfile)

4. Browsed to music in ps3 xmb, when to displayed server name (Brad_Laptop (Media Center))

5. Accessed server, then artist/album, then Audioslave, then Audioslave, then list of unsupported Data pops up. (97 sec in logfile)

6 tried to play unsupported data., tried again with different file in same album. (111 sec in logfile or abouts)

http://www.braham.org/playfile.txt   -- save and rename to .pcap, I had to re-extension because of my webserver rules on allowed extensions.

Logfile

Hope this helps. Enjoying a nice Cooper's Sparkling Ale as I await your response


Edit: below is a data capture I made of essentially the same process using simplecenter (http://www.simplecenter.com/) which seems to work fine, but honestly isnt as good as media center.
http://www.braham.org/simplecenter.txt   -- same deal, rename extension to .pcap  5.5 mb file!  part of an mp3 in there, heh.

[albrnick]

  OK, I've got a ethereal dump of the packets, where should I send it?

  Thanks for your time,
   -Nick

[JimH]

  OK, I've got a ethereal dump of the packets, where should I send it?

  Thanks for your time,
   -Nick

gateley at jriver

Thanks.

[sbsp2]

Wow, SmartCenter works perfectly for UPnP with the PS3 (mp3, photos and vidoes)!!!  But, yeah, the SmartCenter Java-based interface sucks (slow and clunky).

Also, tried TwonkyMedia (correction) just now and, double Wow, that software is awesome (slick, slick).  Works great with the PS3 and the options and configurations it supports is really nice (I like it).

[braham]

Also, tried TwonkyVision just now and, double Wow, that software is awesome (slick, slick).  Works great with the PS3 and the options and configurations it supports is really nice (I like it).

I could never get twonky to read wma's properly, which is must have for me... maybe its just me, but I much better preferred simplecenter to twonkey, but I like mediacenter much much better for organization, ease of use, features, etc.

[sbsp2]

I could never get twonky to read wma's properly, which is must have for me... maybe its just me, but I much better preferred simplecenter to twonkey, but I like mediacenter much much better for organization, ease of use, features, etc.

I think you missed the point of TwonkyMedia (sorry, not TwonkyVision):  to share your media throughout your home via UPnP.  TwM is not for managing your media...that's what MC is good at.  TwM specializes in 'advanced' UPnP support and, thus, is way better and more configurable for UPnP serving (I like how you can customize the menus presented on the clients attached to the TwM server...better than MC can).  MC is very good at organizing and managing your media and somewhat 'basic' UPnp support.  The two complement each other (I think). As for SC, well, it's poor at organizing and 'ok' at UPnP support (not much you can customize though and a big resource hog while serving, but it does work with the PS3).  And, the SC interface is yucky (clunky).

[braham]

I think you missed the point of TwonkyMedia (sorry, not TwonkyVision):  to share your media throughout your home via UPnP.  TwM is not for managing your media...that's what MC is good at.  TwM specializes in 'advanced' UPnP support and, thus, is way better and more configurable for UPnP serving (I like how you can customize the menus presented on the clients attached to the TwM server...better than MC can).  MC is very good at organizing and managing your media and somewhat 'basic' UPnp support.  The two complement each other (I think). As for SC, well, it's poor at organizing and 'ok' at UPnP support (not much you can customize though and a big resource hog while serving, but it does work with the PS3).  And, the SC interface is yucky (clunky).

Yeah, you are right, I missed that aspect.  Also I found out I was using an older version, supposedly a new beta was released in the last 2 days that supports ps3, although I've yet to try it.

For my personal situation, I'd rather use MC and MC only.

[John Gateley]

I hope to have a test version for someone to try today, but it's going to be close.

The PS3 is not completely UPnP compliant. It looks like it's using DLNA extensions.
I'm making an experimental version with support for MP3, we'll see if that works.

j

[Rob L]

I think you missed the point of TwonkyMedia (sorry, not TwonkyVision):  to share your media throughout your home via UPnP.  TwM is not for managing your media...that's what MC is good at.

Well, not entirely. You can't completely separate the two things.

For instance, at the moment, I have to use Windows Media Connect for my SoundBridge, to get WMADRM to play.
Unfortunately, you don't get very sophisticated methods for browsing the files, so I've had to reorganised the directory structure on the disk to allow me to browse in even a basically useful way.

The organisational abilities of Media Center carry over into the media servers (e.g. UPnP) - and I really miss being able to do that with the SoundBridge. For instance, what I do with my streamiums (which I can access from Media Center) is have a list of most recent albums so I can pick the ones I haven't yet listened to much yet. On the Soundbridge, I just get ALL the albums (and there's TONS of 'em, so it takes ages to browse them all).

[John Gateley]

Drop me an e-mail if you'd like to test a version... gateley @ jriver.com

j

[braham]

email sent

[Raistlin]

yep ... email sent!

[braham]

Drop me an e-mail if you'd like to test a version... gateley @ jriver.com
j

John, test version results:

Under server options, I picked advanced, then checked experiemental dlna and allow visual content, all other boxes unchecked.

MP3 files now appear as valid data, but when attempting to play, the PS3 shows "Access to the Media Server has been denied" and no audio plays.  WMA's show unsupported data still.

Network capture below: 1.8mb
http://www.braham.org/cap120244.txt  -- rename extension .pcap

[jmone]

From my Vista PC, the PS3 is seeing the WMP Server just fine.  I've started JR Media Server, I can see it running in the systray, I've added JRMC12 to the exemption list in the Firewall but the PS3 will only see the WMP Server (and via that I can play Audio-MP3's, Video-MPG, Pictures-JPEG)

Even so and apart from the fun to get it going I really don't see the point for me (as I've got a dedicated HTPC running MC12 hooked up to the same AV equipment as the PS3) but a couple of observations:
1) Video quality is MUCH better via the PS/3 (I've got an nVidia 7600GS in the HTPC and the associated Frame Order stutter bug)
2) PS/3 will not play my WMA Lossless (so their goes 95% of my music Library)
3) PS/3 will not play my DV (AVI) files (so their ges all my Home Video Library)
4) PS/3 will not play DTS Audio from an MPEG file (so their goes most of my Music Video Library)
5) The PS/3 Front end sux for media

Still willing to play with it though!
Thanks
Nathan

Alternative Ideas for JimH 
1) See if they nice people at Sony would like to include a real Media Center software platform
2) Add PS/3 & Blueray support nativly to MC13

[JimH]

From my Vista PC, the PS3 is seeing the WMP Server just fine.  I've started JR Media Server

Start the UPnP Server.  Check the settings used above.

Alternative Ideas for JimH 
1) See if they nice people at Sony would like to include a real Media Center software platform

Sony just started putting the Esmas Player (a version of MC) on every PC they ship in Mexico and South America. 

2) Add PS/3 & Blueray support nativly to MC13

I'm pretty sure we'll get PS3 going soon.  Blueray will take a little longer.

[Soul_Rvr911]

I've sent an email to you as well, Gateley. I'd love to help you test this work in progress!

-Lenny

[albrnick]

John, test version results:

Under server options, I picked advanced, then checked experiemental dlna and allow visual content, all other boxes unchecked.

MP3 files now appear as valid data, but when attempting to play, the PS3 shows "Access to the Media Server has been denied" and no audio plays.  WMA's show unsupported data still.

Network capture below: 1.8mb
http://www.braham.org/cap120244.txt  -- rename extension .pcap

I have the same setup, with "always convert audio" set to "MP3 Encoder" using "VBR" with "Normal" "Target Quality".  Images work just fine, but I show unsupported data for both mp3 and wma..

Just to make sure i have installed the right one, it is UPnP Server 1.0.46 of Media Center version 12.0.244. 

OK, I just changed the options to "Don't convert audio" and the mp3s show valid data with titles and durations!  However, I also get the "access is denied" when attempting to listen to it.  And WMAs show up as unsupported data.

If I can do anything else to help, please let me know,
  -Nick

[braham]

Are there any more specific net captures you guys would like to see to help this along?

[John Gateley]

Yes - another with simplecenter that is as minimal as possible. Browse straight to a song and play it, nothing else.

Thanks,

j

[braham]

Yes - another with simplecenter that is as minimal as possible. Browse straight to a song and play it, nothing else.

I did not capture any of simplecenter's startup.  I set the cursor on the ps3 on top of the server icon, then started the net capture.  I immediately entered the server, entered music, album, audioslave, and selected the default song.  I waited for 2-3 seconds of the song to play over my speakers, then stopped the capture.

http://www.braham.org/ss_play.txt  -- same deal as before, rename to .pcap (5mb file)

[John Gateley]

I'm drawing a blank on this one. With the latest version of MC (that has the experimental DLNA support) is the behavior any different from the previous versions (without the experimental DLNA support)? You indicate that it isn't, and yet the network sniff is showing that the content is being sent to the device...

j

[albrnick]

I'm drawing a blank on this one. With the latest version of MC (that has the experimental DLNA support) is the behavior any different from the previous versions (without the experimental DLNA support)? You indicate that it isn't, and yet the network sniff is showing that the content is being sent to the device...

  I can't speak for braham at all, but with the latest version with experimental DLNA support, I can actually see the data for the mp3 files displayed on the PS3.  (ie, full title, duration, etc..).  I couldn't see that before.  Both however, give the same error when trying to actually play the file.

  I hope that helps,
   -Nick

[SimonT]

Hi All - I can go a step further in that I did manage to get an mp3 track playing.  I had to have "always convert audio" selected with the (LAME) mp3 encoder, even though the source track was already MP3.  Other formats still come up as unrecognized (as do video files), but I guess this is expected behaviour at this stage?

The other settings were Replace Empty Genre, Use Flat URL's, Allow Visual Content, Skip Child Count, Experimental DLNA.

Kind regards,
Simon T.

[Soul_Rvr911]

I have managed to confirm Simon's findings using (almost) the same settings. I turned on Use Flat URLs, Allow Visual Content and Experimental DLNA (all other boxes left unchecked) and I used Always convert audio and was able to stream music to my PS3. The music took a minute or two to start playing, however. Also, it would ONLY play MP3s - all other audio formats showed up as Unknown file type (even though Always convert audio was on). Just as odd was that when I turned off Always convert audio (i.e. - when using either Don't convert audio or Convert when necessary) I couldn't get it to play MP3s at all - it would give me a 'permission denied' error after a minute of sitting idle.

If you need any traces or any further info, don't hesitate to ask!

-Lenny

[John Gateley]

Another test.

Choose an MP3 track.
Try to play it on the PS3 to make sure it does not play (with conversion disabled)
Play it (with conversion set to "Always") to make sure it does play.
Using Media Center, convert it to a different file, using the same settings as in the UPnP server.
Try to play that different file without conversion.

Does it work or not?

j

[SimonT]

Another test.

Choose an MP3 track.
Try to play it on the PS3 to make sure it does not play (with conversion disabled)
Play it (with conversion set to "Always") to make sure it does play.
Using Media Center, convert it to a different file, using the same settings as in the UPnP server.
Try to play that different file without conversion.

Does it work or not?

j

Ok - finally packed the family off to bed so that I could play.  The result is that, even after converting the format with the same settings as in the UPnP server, you still have to select "always convert" to get anything.  If of any interest, the track was "Tire Me", Range Against the Machine :-).  It took 16 secs to convert via "convert format", but it takes just over 60 secs to emerge from the speakers via the PS3 as indicated by Lenny.

Hope this helps - having gone through the same process with Philips Streamium a few years back, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that there's nothing proprietary in there :-).

Kind regards,
Simon T.

[SimonT]

...After some more experimentation...  It appears that I was quite lucky to stumble upon mp3 tracks which worked.  Many other mp3 tracks still show up as unsupported format, even though I don't see any obvious difference (bit rate, bit depth, sample frequency etc).  Even more confusing is that even the supported tracks will show up as unsupported formats if you approach them through the directory tree slightly differently.

This results in a track listing of supported data : 06/06/07 23:16:36 - Browse BrowseMetadata 61(Audio\Artist/Album\Rage Against the Machine\Evil Empire)

This doesn't : 06/06/07 23:18:19 - Browse BrowseDirectChildren 348(Audio\Rock/Pop\Rage Against the Machine\Evil Empire)

[Soul_Rvr911]

Ok - finally packed the family off to bed so that I could play.  The result is that, even after converting the format with the same settings as in the UPnP server, you still have to select "always convert" to get anything.  If of any interest, the track was "Tire Me", Range Against the Machine :-).  It took 16 secs to convert via "convert format", but it takes just over 60 secs to emerge from the speakers via the PS3 as indicated by Lenny.

Hope this helps - having gone through the same process with Philips Streamium a few years back, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that there's nothing proprietary in there :-).

Kind regards,
Simon T.

I've been trying to recreate the same test I performed yesterday, but I'm getting very strage results today. When I try to browse an album with Always convert turned on, the PS3 shows me Unsupported data. When I attempt it with Don't covert turned on, it shows me that the files are MP3s, but when I try to play them it tells me that it was denied access by the media server. When I switch the server back to Always convert (and don't leave the folder, so the PS3 doesn't realize anything has changed), it will play THOSE files just fine! Other files, however, still show up as unsupported data (MP3 or otherwise). Very strange; I haven't changed any of the other options today, either. It's possible that I was actually experiencing the same issue yesterday without realizing it - I kept using the same folder for my tests yesterday, as I knew the files in that folder were MP3s.

One of the reasons that the PS3 might take over a minute to start playing the MP3 (when it does decide to play it!) is that it makes over 7 different requests for the same file (I turned on Log all file requests)! It seems as though the PS3 is rather impatient in waiting for the media server to serve it the file it's requesting... Either that or it continues to make requests because it downloads the files piecemeal.

If it helps any, I discovered through testing the options that turning on "Include Session ID" will cause the PS3 to fail even trying to browse the media server (although I think this was already mentioned at some point...). None of the other options (aside from Experimental DLNA support, I haven't tested that one) seem to make much of a difference at all (ie - I turned off everything except for DLNA and it still worked fine)!

[John Gateley]

Very strange. I'm not sure at all what's going on.

The number of requests for the file is not unusual. If you look at the headers, you'll see it's requesting different segments of the file. This is the way some UPnP devices do "seeking": they just close the stream and reopen it at the location they want to seek to.

Most options should not make a difference. They are the collection of tweaks I've made to get the various devices to work. If UPnP were more standard, there wouldn't be any options

j

[Soul_Rvr911]

Yeah, I understand what you mean about standards (and devices/manufacturers not complying with them). Being a programmer myself, I've come across many - SOAP for example, which I've noticed is how the UPnP server functions - that are supposed to be 'standard' yet still have many (often wildly) different implementations. Microsoft did a pretty good job of screwing it up and making it incompatible for everyone else with their implementation in the .NET framework. Worst project I've ever had to work on. But I'm not bitter. Really.

What you've said about seeking makes complete sense, though. It's curious that the PS3 will ask for 3 to 5 different chunks of the file before it will start playing anything though, but that does explain the minute long delay. The only UPnP server I tried that didn't introduce this delay (if I remember correctly it didn't, anyway) was TwonkyMedia server.

What still baffles me is the odd behavior I'm experiencing now. It's strange how the PS3 will recognize files that are MP3s when Don't convert (DC) is selected, but not when Always convert (AC) is chosen. The stranger part is how it will only play when AC is selected, and it will never play when DC is selected.

I did some research on other UPnP servers, and I found an open source one called FUPPES (Free UPnP Entertainment Service). They have discovered that the PS3 is very particular about the messages it gets sent, particularly the headers. See the following bug report on their Sourceforge page, and post on their message board for more information:

http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1726391&group_id=141999&atid=751213
http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?thread_id=1743481&forum_id=475749

Snippet from forum page:

I think the PS3 needs additional information for audio files (e.g. duration, bitrate, etc...)

Snipped from bug report:

Fuppes is not PS3 compatible.

Apparently it is because the PS3 is very fussy about headers. The headers
must match the file type or it will display a "Unsupported Data" message,
even if the file type is supported. On the PS3, if you look up files served
by Fuppes you will see that all information on the file, codec, size, etc
is all blank.

I'd love to be able to get 'down and dirty' into the technical details with you, but unfortunately I'm not entirely sure how the UPnP server works. Are these 'header' fields part of the SOAP envelope, or are they sent as part of the payload (SOAP body) whenever the client requests to browse a folder with media? And does the client receive multiple reponses when it requests to browse a folder - one response per file in the folder it's browsing with detailed information (Album, Artist, Title, length, etc.)? Or does it receive a single, large response with all of this informaton attached? I guess what I'm really interested in, is what does the XML look like?

I should probably install this WireShark program you mentioned, that might make everything a lot clearer for me. Unfortunately, it's 10:41 here at present and I must sleep, for I need to work in the morning. I'll be able to help you with the troubleshooting when I get back, though!

-Lenny

[John Gateley]

What you've said about seeking makes complete sense, though. It's curious that the PS3 will ask for 3 to 5 different chunks of the file before it will start playing anything though, but that does explain the minute long delay. The only UPnP server I tried that didn't introduce this delay (if I remember correctly it didn't, anyway) was TwonkyMedia server.

Usually the chunks get sent quickly (one player I know asks for something like 20/second, and it plays just fine, until I'm using MC in debug mode at work).
But I think the PS3 is asking for a chunk at the end of the file, and since the file is being converted on the fly, it has to convert the whole file before getting there.

Thanks for the good info, I'll take a closer look tomorrow.

j

[John Gateley]

I took a look - it looks like their problem is not the same as ours.

The "headers" they keep talking about are probably not http headers. They are talking about metadata that's part of the SOAP body.
We provide that metadata, though perhaps we don't provide enough or provide it in a slightly different format.

Would you try a very careful  series of tests for me? First, wait 15 seconds between every time you use the PS3 (every time you push a button).
This will let me separate out which TCP streams come from which actions. Second, carefully note exactly what you are doing
at each step (going into a folder, going to a song, playing a song, etc). Do the following test with Wireshark sniffing and send me the sniffs
along with the careful description.

Test 1:
1) Set the UPnP Server to Always Convert
2) Browse to a folder with MP3 tracks.
3) After it displays Unsupported Data, turn off the sniffer.

Test 2:
1) Set the UPnP Server to Never Convert
2) Browse to the same folder as test 1.
3) After it displays the tracks, turn off the sniffer (don't try to play them).

After I look at that, we'll figure out what to do next.

j

[Soul_Rvr911]

I'm sending you an email in a few seconds with my results from running the test you requested, John. I hope you find them useful!

[John Gateley]

Yes, I did. I found a smaller problem - not the problem preventing it from playing music, but a problem which makes it hard to figure out exactly what is going on. Each object has an UpdateID associated with it, and I was (wrongly) returning the same update ID every time. This allows the device to cache info that it shouldn't be caching.

So, please try the next version (255 or higher) and in particular, try the Don't Convert / Always Convert settings and see if they are consistent now.
I'm looking for 2 pieces of information:
1) I remember someone saying "Always Convert" showed "Unsupported", switching to "Don't Convert" and back to "Always Convert" would show supported. I think this should no longer happen.
2) Does the same behavior happen for "Don't Convert" and "Always Convert", or are they still different.

If you are not on the beta board and want to try this, drop me an e-mail...

j

[sbsp2]

Update:  The TwonkyMedia UPnP support for the PS3 is awesome and getting better every release.  It works with pictures, video and music files.  I suggest PS3 users/owners check it out sometime (30-day trial).

[JimH]

Update:  The TwonkyMedia UPnP support for the PS3 is awesome and getting better every release.  It works with pictures, video and music files.  I suggest users check it out sometime (30-day trial).

Thanks for providing a target.

[Soul_Rvr911]

Yes, I did. I found a smaller problem - not the problem preventing it from playing music, but a problem which makes it hard to figure out exactly what is going on. Each object has an UpdateID associated with it, and I was (wrongly) returning the same update ID every time. This allows the device to cache info that it shouldn't be caching.

So, please try the next version (255 or higher) and in particular, try the Don't Convert / Always Convert settings and see if they are consistent now.
I'm looking for 2 pieces of information:
1) I remember someone saying "Always Convert" showed "Unsupported", switching to "Don't Convert" and back to "Always Convert" would show supported. I think this should no longer happen.
2) Does the same behavior happen for "Don't Convert" and "Always Convert", or are they still different.

If you are not on the beta board and want to try this, drop me an e-mail...

j

Hi John,

I have tested the version that you sent me the link to, and found results similar to what you were expecting. I first set the server to "Don't Convert", browsed to a folder and saw that the MP3s showed up as playable, with all of the proper track information, etc. I attempted to play one, but got the familiar "access to media server denied" message. I then switched the media server to "Always Convert", left and reentered the directory, but nothing had changed. I went into "All" instead of the album name, and sure enough every item came back as "Unsupported". I browsed back to that album, but it they still showed as MP3s. I attempted to play one, and after about 15 seconds it came back with a message saying it couldn't establish a connection to the Media server. The screen didn't change from the playing screen however, and about 2 minutes later it started playing the track I had attempted to play. When I stopped playback it brought me back to the directory I was browsing, only now all of the items were "unsupported format". I attempted to play another track (well, technically it should have been the same track, but the PS3 doesn't show any information about the track if it says 'unsupported'), but again the PS3 wouldn't initiate playback.

-Lenny

[sbsp2]

It's been 3 weeks now, any luck on JRiver acquiring a PS3 (they are everywhere now) and fixing MC's UPnP support with the PS3 more quickly? (instead of relying on throwing code over the fence for end-users to test and end-users throwing the results back)

[John Gateley]

Not yet, I've got a lot on my list right now, but I'll get to it.

j

[sbsp2]

Any update on this...working on it yet?  Get one of the those reduced-price PS3s yet (available anywhere)?

[davisford]

Howdy, I just upgraded my PS3 to 1.90 and MC12 to build 294, and I found MC12 w/PS3, and am streaming mp3 happily.