Topic: Genres (Read 2876 times)

Hookem · « **on:** July 29, 2002, 04:31:30 pm »

I'm not good at determining Genres. Is there a website that you can look up artists to see what Genre there music is. Right now I have music from Buddy Holly to Bush all under Rock, and I want to split it up, but I'm not familiar with all of the Genres.

Thanks,
Brandon

Charlemagne 8 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 29, 2002, 04:39:44 pm »

Hookem,

MJ has a long list of genres and you can even make your own up but it's not something that is quantifiable. Any list you encounter will only be that author's opinion. If you could define what goes into a genre, it could be made automatic (perhaps in "Analyze Replay Gain") based on the time signature, the instruments used and the lyrical content (or lack of). Some would refuse to be defined.
Listen to it, decide for yourself. Some are easy. Do those first.
CVIII

SeanC · « **Reply #2 on:** July 29, 2002, 05:06:29 pm »

You can use Allmusic to get a 3rd party opinion on genres.

joe|PLS|mama · « **Reply #3 on:** July 29, 2002, 05:15:30 pm »

Creating your own Genre categories is on of the coolest features of MJ. For example, I would use Rock: Oldies for Buddy Holly and just Rock for Bush. I also have categories like Rock: 70s, Rock: 80s. Also cool is that you can assign different Genres to different tracks on the same album. Then you can use SmartLists to create playlists that combine different Genres, or whatever other criteria you want to use.

Scronch · « **Reply #4 on:** July 29, 2002, 08:23:49 pm »

Many people find that Booty Bass is an accurate description for all music ever recorded.

Scronch

Mirko · « **Reply #5 on:** July 29, 2002, 09:15:22 pm »

@joe|PLS|mama

I don't think this should be possible. Because as far as I know the genre-data is written to the ID3-tags (into the title, if I remember correctly) and has standards (on the page with ID3-description is a list and I think, _this_ is the standard). If you share your MP3s with friends or someone else, they wouldn't have your genres. So they have to re-tag your MP3s.
Also you don't need to make genres like "Rock 70s", because you can, especially with MJ, make playlists that match this criteria (filter on the year).

I personally don't like MP3s with wrong genre-tagging. Some people really tag "Prince" as "Blues" or "Faith more more" with "Rock". Sometimes I even see "General Rock" (can someone explain the difference to "Rock"?).

joe|PLS|mama · « **Reply #6 on:** July 30, 2002, 02:14:06 am »

Actually, Scronch, I've been toying with the idea of just getting a gigantic subwoofer...then everything is always Booty Bass, all the time!

Listening to: 'Peanut Butter & Jelly' by 'Chipman & The Buckwheat Boys' on Media Jukebox

Mirko:

I'm not sure what you mean by "this shouldn't be possible." Do you mean that my non-standard genres will only show up in MJ and not in other programs? I have MP3, MPC, OGG and APE files in my library and the genre tags I've made all show up in other programs, like Winamp. IIRC, ID3v1 is very inflexible and will only let you use the standard genres, but ID3v2, APE tags (for APE and MPC) and OGG tags don't force any kind of constraints on what genre you're allowed to use. Also, I don't really share my files with other people, but if I did and they didn't like the way I have them tagged, then yeah, I guess they'd have to change them.

"...you can, especially with MJ, make playlists that match this criteria (filter on the year)."

This is true, but for various reasons, not all of my files have the year information in the tags. It's easier to put them in a genre like Pop: 80s, than spend time looking up the year info somewhere. Also, sometimes when you copy a Greatest Hits cd, the liner notes don't always have the year listed for each individual tracks.

"I personally don't like MP3s with wrong genre-tagging. Some people really tag "Prince" as "Blues" or "Faith more more" with "Rock"."

I don't like to tag a whole album as one genre if there are many styles of music on it. Not all Prince songs are the same style, so if there was a Blues song on a Prince album, then I would tag that specific track as blues. Actually, I have a genre called Prince, which I use for Prince, 0{ >, Prince & The Revolution, The NPG, and also for songs by other artists that Prince has written. Creating a playlist to filter all those songs would take a lot of searching through my library, so it's just easier to use Prince as the genre when I rip the cd. Another example, I don't tag all Pet Shop Boys songs as Dance because they also have some songs that are more Pop than Dance.

Rob

Mirko · « **Reply #7 on:** July 30, 2002, 03:11:06 am »

Joe|PLS|mama:
I'm not sure what you mean by "this shouldn't be possible." Do you mean that my non-standard genres will only show up in MJ and not in other programs?

No. I mean that it shouldn't be allowed to create new genres. There are already a lot of them and it becomes more and more difficult to choose one of them for a specific artist or song (e.g. it's quite difficult to see the difference between gaba, electrical, drum'n'bass, house. Sometimes).
A _genre_ is generaly spoken a category to ease the exchange between different people about music(-taste). If you create your own genres, this would be possible no more. E.g. I create the genre "Mirko likes it". What would that say? Nothing, right.

[playlist by criterias]
you: This is true, but for various reasons, not all of my files have the year information in the tags.

I know excactly what _this_ feels like :-/

you: It's easier to put them in a genre like Pop: 80s, than spend time looking up the year info somewhere. Also, sometimes when you copy a Greatest Hits cd, the liner notes don't always have the year listed for each individual tracks.

If I listen to a song that hasn't got the year and I have some time, I look up. If I don't, I don't care.

me:"I personally don't like MP3s with wrong genre-tagging. Some people really tag "Prince" as "Blues" or "Faith more more" with "Rock"."

you:I don't like to tag a whole album as one genre if there are many styles of music on it.

Ok. That's a big problem.

you: Not all Prince songs are the same style, so if there was a Blues song on a Prince album, then I would tag that specific track as blues.

I think that in this case the genre is simple: Funk. I think Funk includes some blues, some rap and some other things ;-)

Billy Idol is difficult. The older things are definitly rock, but "Cyberpunk"? What should that be? I know it's a lot of work, but that's part of the fun, isn't it?

you: Actually, I have a genre called Prince, which I use for Prince, 0{ >, Prince & The Revolution, The NPG, and also for songs by other artists that Prince has written.

I only differentiate between album titles and songnames. Not by genre (in this case). The songs, that prince has written (one of us, I got both versions *g*) are marked in the comment-field.

you: Creating a playlist to filter all those songs would take a lot of searching through my library, so it's just easier to use Prince as the genre when I rip the cd.

Oh well. I think _he_ would like that. But I don't think that's the purpose of genres.

joe|PLS|mama · « **Reply #8 on:** July 30, 2002, 04:16:10 am »

Mirko wrote:

"I mean that it shouldn't be allowed to create new genres."

Ok, but only ID3v1 restricts you to the standard genres. All of the other tagging specifications (ID3v2, APE, OGG) let the user make what ever genres they want. I don't think they were designed that way accidentally.

"There are already a lot of them and it becomes more and more difficult to choose one of them for a specific artist or song (e.g. it's quite difficult to see the difference between gaba, electrical, drum'n'bass, house. Sometimes). A _genre_ is generaly spoken a category to ease the exchange between different people about music(-taste). If you create your own genres, this would be possible no more. E.g. I create the genre "Mirko likes it". What would that say?"

I agree, all of the genres can be confusing. However, I'm not organizing my library so that it makes sense to other people, I'm organizing in a way that makes sense to me.

"I think that in this case the genre is simple: Funk. I think Funk includes some blues, some rap and some other things"

Ok, but not everyone might agree that Prince should be classified as Funk. Usually, a Prince album has some Funk, some Rock, some ballads, some Pop. I often like to listen to my music by genre. So, if I feel like listening to random selections of Funk, I don't want any ballads popping up in the middle of the mix. But that's just me.

Mirko · « **Reply #9 on:** July 30, 2002, 05:02:50 am »

joe|PLS|mama:

Ahhh. You use genres different than me. You do some sort of "pre-selecting". Ok. I understand the why now.

Scronch · « **Reply #10 on:** July 30, 2002, 10:30:28 am »

Mirko> I mean that it shouldn't be allowed to create new genres.

Thankfully, you can organize your music your way, and others can do it their way. Many people don't care if their genres make sense to others. As for defending "enforced lists" created by morons, one example: Booty Bass

Scronch

KingSparta · « **Reply #11 on:** July 30, 2002, 10:52:10 am »

I Have Two Genres I Use

"Top 40" - I Like
"Pop" - Not Yet Rated

I Am A Simple Man

Charlemagne 8 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 30, 2002, 03:34:06 pm »

And I can see absolutely NOTHING wrong with a "Mirko likes it" genre. If it was someone who knew you (of course that's the only people you would share with) they would know that they might like it, too.
CVIII

Mirko · « **Reply #13 on:** July 30, 2002, 09:13:57 pm »

"Mirkos likes it"-genre:
I don't think that anyone except me can think off the songs, I put into this genre. Because my taste is quite uncommon. So I create a playlistgroup "Good mood songs" and put some playlist in there, that contain actual good mood songs (e.g. "Good morning!"). This way I organize "my way" and other could look into the genres.

I don't think that genre should be used to make such subjectively distinctions.

I have to admit, that I have created two custom genres. "Pop 80s" and "Hörbuch". I also think that I didn't follow my own standards here.

My main point is, that genres should be common knowledge and if I talk about genres, I would subordinate that everyone understands that (or similar). Maybe I do subordinate things that don't happen this way.

joe mama · « **Reply #14 on:** July 30, 2002, 10:55:47 pm »

"My main point is, that genres should be common knowledge..."

But you'll never get everyone to agree about what genre an artist should be categorized, because it is subjective. You say classify Prince as Funk, but I would say some of his albums are definitely Rock or Pop, not Funk (think Purple Rain). But again, that's just me.

Rob

Mirko · « **Reply #15 on:** July 30, 2002, 11:22:40 pm »

FYI: I'm just collecting some information about genres. I already found some very interesting definitions of different genres (e.g. Jungle and it's variants). So I guess I'm composing a "genre-guide".

I don't want you to change your mind about that. But maybe you could see, why a standard of genres should make everyones life easier.

Edited:
A _very_ comprehensive guide to genres:
http://allmusic.com/mus_Styles.html

Scronch · « **Reply #16 on:** July 31, 2002, 01:46:33 am »

Yes, we should all thank our lucky stars that Booty Bass made the list.

[/sarcasm]

There's no such thing as a "standard" list. Genre names come and go faster than hemlines, purple hair and thick black glasses. The "official" list was clearly created by total morons, and I doubt a group of us would do any better.

[/soapbox]

Scronch

Mirko · « **Reply #17 on:** July 31, 2002, 02:18:13 am »

Scronch:

I'm a little bit suprised. You critise without cause. Or you don't share it with us. The list I got from the ID3v2-Tag-page is quite comprehensive and should please the most of us quite well. The genres are a piece of science, I saw a few sites from universities, that do such courses, so they _are_ definable. With that in mind I guess one _could_ do such a standards-list. Maybe some already done that.

joe|PLS|mama · « **Reply #18 on:** July 31, 2002, 02:40:30 am »

"But maybe you could see, why a standard of genres should make everyones life easier.

Edited:
A _very_ comprehensive guide to genres:
http://allmusic.com/mus_Styles.html"

There are probably 200 different genre categories listed there. How does that make anyones life easier? :| I only have about 50 in my own Media Library and I could probably make do with less if I really thought about it. I mean, for me, I don't really need to differentiate between Garage Techno, Gabber, Happy Hardcore, Acid Techno...to me it's all just Techno.

So, now we have this standardized genre list...who gets to decide what category each artist goes in? I nominate myself for the position!

I do understand the point you're making, I just don't think there would be any way to get people to stick to a standardized list of genres.

Rob

Mirko · « **Reply #19 on:** July 31, 2002, 02:46:15 am »

I'm not suggestion to enforce people to following a standard. Like Microsoft, man has not to. But it would be easier for people to exchange things (not only MP3s but generally spoken) about music.

If there would be a standard genre-list, there would be also definitions of the genres. Then everybody should easy identify which genre to use. To help people doing so, I or someone else could write a little piece of software to help categorizing (e.g. by asking questions to lead from Rock to Heavy Metal to Speed Metal). As far as I've seen the definitions are easy to understand, but, that's the nice in music, not always unique to one song.

In order to categorize your own music taste, you could use playlists. Or some other "user-genre" field. I'm just thinking, not finished yet ;-)

KingSparta · « **Reply #20 on:** July 31, 2002, 05:16:30 am »

Mirko

Something Else No One Looked At Is:

When You Submit A CD To CDDB You Arelimited To I Think 171 Or So Genres, Since They Are Pre Defined.

Then Using Editing You Can Edit The ID3v2 Tags To What Ever You Want.

Scronch · « **Reply #21 on:** July 31, 2002, 10:44:53 am »

Mirko, your thoughts are on the subject are good. But I think you are banging your head against a very large wall. Not enough people care about "accurate" genres, not to mention the already-discussed fact that many people will disagree to which genre a given song belongs.

Scronch

KingSparta · « **Reply #22 on:** July 31, 2002, 11:01:16 am »

A Genre is as accurate as You throwing a dart at the moon

J-Ro · « **Reply #23 on:** July 31, 2002, 11:10:00 am »

What good are the "Standardized" genres if no one adheres to them Mirko? You seem to suggest that these standards should be created but not enforced...well then they are useless for people sharing music (I hope we are not talking about copyrighted music here).

KingSparta · « **Reply #24 on:** July 31, 2002, 11:16:19 am »

>> You seem to suggest that these standards should be created
>> but not enforced...
And When Someone Does Not Use What We\You Think Is The Correct Genre What Then?

Should We Contact The KGB?

Disclamer: No KGB Agents Were Harmed In The Writing Of This Message.

Charlemagne 8 · « **Reply #25 on:** July 31, 2002, 03:11:27 pm »

There was a discussion awhile back about file naming conventions. As I recall, nobody could agree on that, either. That's why in MJ there is now a list to choose from to do your tagging AND the ability to create your own.
Genres are the same way. You might establish conventions but not enough people would follow them to make it viable. Everyone has their own ideas.
But who am I to talk ... everything I have is "Blues", even AC/DC.

CVIII

A "File Naming Convention"? Sign me up. I'll be there.

Scronch · « **Reply #26 on:** July 31, 2002, 04:28:54 pm »

Listening to: 'Everybody Wants To Rule The World' from 'Songs From the Big Chair' by 'Tears For Fears' on Media Jukebox

Mirko · « **Reply #27 on:** July 31, 2002, 08:24:50 pm »

Enforce:
What I mean is, that nobody should be forced to do anything. We fought a couple of hundred years ago in order to live free. So who am I if I would force someone to give up that freedom? It's more than enough when other people do that ;-)

Sharing:
I don't know the legal issues involved in your country. In Germany you _may_ copy music to friends, because you already paid for this (we call it "GEMA") if you buy music, cdroms or hifi-equipment (that does _not_ include selling and copying in professional (e.g. do a P2P-Server) ways).
I'm not (only) thinking of sharing, but to talk about music generally. If there would be a helpfull guide for the people, who would like to talk about the same, if they talk about "Speed Metal", then a genre-"standard" could be one way to go, I think.

A friend and myself are ripping these days our CD-collection. And _we_ talked (and wrote down) about naming conventions, encoding standards and genres. It's not that difficult (we created a database, where we save the non-standards-things, if they were necessary). But we couldn't tell, which genres to use.

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: Genres (Read 2876 times)

Hookem

joe|PLS|mama

Scronch

joe|PLS|mama

joe|PLS|mama

Scronch

joe mama

Scronch

joe|PLS|mama

Scronch

Scronch