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Author Topic: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...  (Read 6429 times)

rjm

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OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« on: August 28, 2008, 10:47:34 pm »

... so I could vote for Obama.

What a speech!

You guys better not blow this chance to get back on track.

The world needs you on the right path.
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hit_ny

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2008, 04:44:11 am »

You don't find the 'cult' like following a bit scary ? The "yes, we can" types  ::)

If the majority of the US was under the age of 30 i bet Obama would win by a landslide
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AustinBike

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2008, 07:06:45 am »

If I have to choose my cult, I'll take the cult following the eloquent speaker over the cult that follows the guy that butchers his own language.

I have to travel worldwide for my job and I just want to go to other countries and have people like us again.  We lost the high ground and it will take us a long time to build that back up. 
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hit_ny

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2008, 07:32:43 am »

So what happens if the electorate choose not to go with the eloquent speaker ?
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JimH

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2008, 08:57:10 am »

The electorate considers eloquence among many factors.  It is, however, a powerful tool to motivate people. 

"I have a dream." 

"Ask not what your country can do for you -- ask what you can do for your country. " 

"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

I believe that the world will learn this November that the people of the United States do not support the policies or the conduct of the current administration.
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hit_ny

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2008, 10:45:30 am »

Those are great ppl you quoted, and wonder whether he could fill their shoes.

Everything you said Jim, was supposed to have happened last time around.

Why should it be any different this time ?

Bad economy is not good for the incumbent, look at 2000.

The President does not get to say whether to invade or not that's upto Congress who have just one criteria.

National Interest.
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ProblemChild

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2008, 10:46:11 am »

With Liberty and Justice For All*



*some restrictions may apply** - please see Patriot Act.



** republicans may disregard



You have to give them credit though, they've executed a near-flawless propaganda campaign. (Gosh, if I'm not breaking the law, then why should I mind that I've lost all my civil liberties?

Or, in the words of Benjamin Franklin,
"They that would give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

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KingSparta

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2008, 10:49:11 am »

John McCain Selects Alaska Governor Sarah Palin As Vice Presidential Running Mate

He Is Going To Lose Now

http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/News/PressReleases/Read.aspx?guid=b1a33b7f-5388-4ab9-99a4-95d9d35268ce


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ProblemChild

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2008, 10:53:24 am »

King Sparta, you just made my day!
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KingSparta

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2008, 10:59:05 am »

I Like This Video Of Obama

It Should Go Down In History As One Of The Great Speeches

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOTAfGuLA-0
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hit_ny

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2008, 11:27:36 am »

John McCain Selects Alaska Governor Sarah Palin As Vice Presidential Running Mate

He Is Going To Lose Now

i think that's up to how united the Dems are :)

Had Hillary made the nomination then i would have thought a Dem victory was feasible.

With Obama in the picture, where do Hillary's supporters go ?

Even with as united a stand as we saw in 2004, it was not possible.

McCain & Hillary are pretty similar, its a surprise McCain is actually a Republican, but i guess an armed forces background might explain it. Then again the hard core neocons don't care too much for him either, so how many will bother to vote.

Still i think the dem split is more than in the republican camp.
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DarkPenguin

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2008, 11:53:23 am »

It's really too bad that you never felt the rush of voting for Mondale.

... so I could vote for Obama.

What a speech!

You guys better not blow this chance to get back on track.

The world needs you on the right path.
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JimH

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2008, 01:45:36 pm »

It's really too bad that you never felt the rush of voting for Mondale.
;D   Or Perot.

Here's why I think Palin was at the top of McCain's list:

Quote
"It's an absolutely brilliant choice," said Mathew Staver, dean of Liberty University School of Law and founder of the legal group Liberty Counsel, who has sought to coalesce evangelicals around McCain. "This will absolutely energize McCain's campaign and energize conservatives."

Palin is "a woman of faith who has a strong position on life, a consistent opinion on judges," Staver said. "She's the complete package."
I don't think she'll attract many Clinton supporters.
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steveklein

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2008, 01:49:22 pm »

obama - king of the teleprompter.

unfortunately, answering hard questions on the fly appears to be "above his paygrade"

his words, not mine.

his own vp's opinion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDVUPqoowf8
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ProblemChild

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2008, 04:20:14 pm »

Given that she strongly favors the teaching of 'creation science' (that makes me cringe just typing the word 'science'), has a history of using her public life to exert influence other people's private lives, is strongly against everything remoting liberal - I think there's little hope of her picking up too many Hillary supporters. And considering much of the GOP's strength in recent years has come from people who, by and large, believe a woman should be in the house popping out babies and having the house clean when her husband arrives, it's also possible she could bring trouble from the right as well. She's a very outspoken woman, in any case - I doubt there'll be much of question who she is for long. We'll see. Anyone know what the housing situation and job market are like in Amsterdam these days? ;D
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hit_ny

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2008, 04:59:15 pm »

I don't think she'll attract many Clinton supporters.

And that's not who she is for, her job is to get the ones that think McCain is too soft, those same ones, who last time around made a decisive difference.

A round about way of doing things if you will but what to do, the man is just not strong enough in some areas   ;D
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KorkyKat

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2008, 08:32:31 pm »

From this side of the pond, I stayed awake until 5:00a.m. to listen to Mr. Obama. I was reasonably impressed but I'll wait until I see what flesh he can put on the bone. I think he's erred too much on the side of celebrity. He's certainly no MLK. We'll see.

My ideal choice would have been John Edwards with Hillary Clinton. It would certainly have been interesting. I forecast that Chelsea Clinton will run for President one day. Alas I'll have shuffled off this mortal coil when she does.

Whoever wins, good luck to you all.

Did I mention the new Randy Newman c.d.? Flipping tremendous. One of the finest American composers, songwriters ever.

 ;D
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ProblemChild

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2008, 12:52:42 am »

Quote
Did I mention the new Randy Newman c.d.? Flipping tremendous. One of the finest American composers, songwriters ever.

Hey KorkyKat I have to agree. I've loved Newman ever since 'Short People' played everywhere you went and pissed everyone off - well, mostly height-challenged individuals (like myself) I guess  :). Anyway, Political Science is definitely one of my all-time favorite songs and all too apropos given this thread. Can't wait to hear the new one.
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xen-uno

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2008, 08:07:16 am »

I'd rather see a Libertarian such as Ron Paul win, however unlikely. We need someone that will tear government down to the core, not add to it. There is a ton of garbage and fat there that has built up over the years. I like McCain over Obama, but only if he jettisons all remnants of the Bush admin. Whoever wins need to get the US out of Iraq and dump both the Patriot Act and Homeland Security. Doing so would restore due process and reel in the FBI and other agencies who now need nothing more than a whim to spy on anyone they choose.

hit_ny

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2008, 11:08:46 am »

We need someone that will tear government down to the core, not add to it. There is a ton of garbage and fat there that has built up over the years.

That's the promise but has any president to date been able to change the system ?

It sounds like a great idea but i really wonder whether ppl are willing to put up with the temporary upsets, more importantly the uncertainty in exchange for perhaps not so well defined longer term stabilty. This man is not talking about superficial stuff, he gives the impressoin about doing some major restructuring here  :o

Course it has to get through Congress ulitmately and greasing certain initiatives over others is akin to some black art. In the end he can always say he pushed but got shot down. But the dems control Congress for the moment so there a certain plausibilty for success.

This is not some CEO of a company replacing processes around the place, we are talking something much more involved, about things that have been part of the systems for decades if not longer. But like the old saying if there's the will...

Whoever wins need to get the US out of Iraq...
Haha, yes eye-Raq..scale down yes, get out...not going to happen.

They did not go there on a lark, if they were willing to pay the price of the fallout then that tells me there was a very clear strategic goal in mind. That it would be a long war fits in perfectly and i don't think that goal will change until the oil in the region runs out. Ignore the pretext given for public consumption. I see far too many ppl arguing against it when it was never the real reason to begin with.

Course the Iranian's don't like the changed scenario and are countering as they can. But it appears unlikely to be more than a war of words for some time yet for the simple reason Iran is not as weak as Iraq was in 2003, isn't a flat desert like Iraq and has an incredibly long coast line bordering the persian gulf, therefore any war would have questionable benefits over the costs. Whether its winnable isn't in question, more whether the peace can be maintained in a rather important region.

That won't stop the media  trying to make it look imminent every now & again ;)


..and dump both the Patriot Act and Homeland Security.

I think these were more a product of paranoid times, there has not been an attack since, does that mean the laws are non productive ?

I'm not arguing in the slightest for them to be kept btw as it sets a rather poor example for the free world ;)
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DarkPenguin

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2008, 11:12:50 am »

That's the promise but has any president to date been able to change the system ?

Andrew Jackson?
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glynor

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2008, 07:37:39 pm »

And that's not who she is for, her job is to get the ones that think McCain is too soft, those same ones, who last time around made a decisive difference.

A round about way of doing things if you will but what to do, the man is just not strong enough in some areas   ;D

I'm intentionally staying out of this one in general.  :-X

However, I do feel I should address this one point, because the talking bobbleheads on TV aren't really addressing it at all (of course, it is in their best interest to keep the story alive and keep the election "close").  Palin was absolutely picked to try to appeal to the so-called "disaffected" Clinton supporters.  The pick certainly did have the dual-purpose of solidifying the conservative base as well, but that could have been achieved in many other ways that wouldn't have gutted the long-running experience talking point (and, sorry, being close to Siberia doesn't count for foreign policy experience any more than having Mt. McKinley qualifies as Space Exploration experience).  It is blatantly transparent... McCain wanted Lieberman.   The base threatened to revolt, so he couldn't have him.  He hates Romney, so he wouldn't pick him.  After Thursday, he needed to make a big gesture, which Pawlenty certainly wouldn't do, so he reacted.  Could have been worse, really.

The obvious, and necessary, point was to try to attract disaffected Democrats and Independent women (big I).  The reason is blatantly simple.  Party affiliation numbers are not the same as they were for the past 4 presidential election cycles (and more, really), so comparing to what "worked last time" isn't relevant.  The country has swung fairly hard to the left.  Despite small (but significant) gains in August, Republican affiliation is WAY down and Dem and Independent affiliation is way up (Dems have a 5.7% advantage right now, not counting Dem leaning Independents).  As we stand right now... McCain HAS TO solidify his base, AND steal a significant proportion of the Independent/Democratic vote, or he loses.  If Obama simply solidifies his base and coasts to a stalemate with Independents, he wins.  Period.  (That simplifies things somewhat because it ignores the state-by-state math, but that situation only makes things worse for McCain.)

So, you're right.  McCain has fires on two fronts, his base still isn't really solid (Paul's separate rally doesn't look good, but the real problem is all those people still voting for Huckabee in the primaries after he had already quit and McCain had already won).  He has to keep all those evangelicals with the same high turnout numbers Bush inspired in 2004, and then also manage to steal at least 6% of the current Dem/Ind voters.  Palin was clearly aimed at these two dual (and somewhat opposing) goals.

It could work.  I'm with Jim though.  In the end, it probably won't.  It is nearly impossible to run against the popularity figures the current administration has now in the best of times, and we are really far from the best of times.  And then, to top it all off, you have to run against Obama.  I don't think anyone really, truly relishes the idea of running against that man right now, despite what the talking points say.
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glynor

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2008, 07:50:48 pm »

That's the promise but has any president to date been able to change the system ?

I think it could certainly be argued that FDR, Nixon, and that Reagan did, among others.  They may not have always changed it in the ways that they planned, but changed it they did.
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Matt

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2008, 09:07:42 pm »

I believe that the world will learn this November that the people of the United States do not support the policies or the conduct of the current administration.

Except for 2004, when we did support them.
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hit_ny

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2008, 06:55:43 am »

I'm intentionally staying out of this one in general.  :-X

Why ??

You might be preaching to the choir   :P

Palin was absolutely picked to try to appeal to the so-called "disaffected" Clinton supporters.

Not sure that makes sense, cause i would have thought that was McCain's job. Why else would Kerry even have thought of him as a potential running mate last time around.

OTOH if what you say is true then the game is up, time to make make way for the mighty Obamacles.


The pick certainly did have the dual-purpose of solidifying the conservative base as well, but that could have been achieved in many other ways that wouldn't have gutted the long-running experience talking point (and, sorry, being close to Siberia doesn't count for foreign policy experience any more than having Mt. McKinley qualifies as Space Exploration experience).

How much foreign policy experience did Bush require ?

I get the impression the only ppl that care are those that can't vote, ie the foreigners.

...you could counter thats exactly the problem currently :)

i thought i had an opinion about this but decided to let history be the judge. Stratgeically it cost less now than later, but whether it was worth it is too early to say.

The one trump card McCain has here is that he actively supported the surge last year, that Bush subsequently approved despite lots of opposition at the time. That surge is responsible for the improvement in Iraq today compared to before.

It could work.  I'm with Jim though.  In the end, it probably won't.  It is nearly impossible to run against the popularity figures the current administration has now in the best of times, and we are really far from the best of times.  And then, to top it all off, you have to run against Obama.  I don't think anyone really, truly relishes the idea of running against that man right now, despite what the talking points say.

Is the split in the Republican camp more than in the other ?

McCain never did like Bush, so he has to distance himself & at the same time retain his supporters.

Quite awkward, what is the message here, vote for us to have the same or ??

Is that possible ?

That's why i think Palin's choice is more to stem any mutiny, plug the leaks than appeal to Hillary's supporters. Still waiting to see how they can measure if it worked.

Will the debate change anything ?

not to the core supporters but to independents it might. My gut feeling is Obama will come out looking better in the debate but let's see.
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glynor

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2008, 09:15:56 am »

Why ??

Because, right now, Interact is a place I come to not think about politics.  A place to pry myself out of full-blown, involved, political-junkie-mode.  You needled me a little bit though (not in a mean way, of course), so I will say this...

How much foreign policy experience did Bush require ?

Two things...

1) If you're going to lead with that, people are only going to laugh at you.  A much better example is the other man from Illinois.  Funny that you're suddenly arguing our points for us, though, isn't it?  I think you can call that a win for Obama.

2) I don't think Bush's problem was lack of experience at all.  Certainly he had plenty of people who had plenty of experience that he could call upon (not the least of which were his father and Dick Cheney) for help.  His main problem was that he let ideology trump reason, and where not directed by ideology (which was mostly founded in religion and personal family issues) he was guided almost entirely by short-term political considerations.

And, lastly, regarding why Kerry may have considered McCain a running mate?  I think Kerry himself said it best... Candidate McCain turned out not to be the same person as Senator McCain was this time around.
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skylarplane

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2008, 10:52:51 am »

Subject: Experience


OBAMA`S WORK EXPERIENCE, AND KNOWLEDGE:

�- In the US Senate, Barack Obama has served on the FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE, HOMELAND SECURITY COMMITTEE, VETERANS AFFAIRS COMMITTEE, HEALTH, EDUCATION, LABOUR & PENSION COMMITTEE.
�- Before getting to the US Senate Obama served 11 years in the Illinois State Senate.
�- Barack Obama is a graduate TOP of his class at Harvard Law School. (Magna Cum Laude)
�- While at Harvard Law School - President of Harvard Law Reveiw
�- Barack Obama also has a degree in Political science specializing in International Relations.
�- Barack Obama worked in Chicago, Illinois as a community organizer, Obama, as the director of the Developing Communities Project in Chicago, helped set up ajob training program, a college preparatory tutoring program, and a tenants' rights organization in Altgeld Gardens.
�- Barack Obama also worked as a consultant and instructor for a community organizing institute.�Barack Obama worked as a Civil Rights lawyer for 9 years.
�- Barack Obama was also a University of Chicago Constutitional Law Professor for 12 years.
�- In the US Senate Obama has written 890 pieces of legislation, and co-sponsored 1096 pieces of legislation.

Palin's resume:

1984 - Miss Wasilla
1984 - Miss Alaska pageant runner up
Bachelor's Degree in Journalism from University of Idaho
1992 through 1996 - City Council, Wasilla, Alaska
1996 - 2002 - Mayor, Wasilla, Alaska (Population 5,470)
2002 - Unsucessful bid for Lieutenant Governor of Alaska
2006 - Governor of Alaska and Soccer Mom
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hit_ny

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2008, 01:47:09 pm »

1) If you're going to lead with that, people are only going to laugh at you.  A much better example is the other man from Illinois.  Funny that you're suddenly arguing our points for us, though, isn't it?  I think you can call that a win for Obama.
They have plenty of experts to advise them on these issues. Even tho it sounds like i'm making the argument for you, it really isn't one to me, foreign experience is good but not essential.

What bout matruity tho, white hair and all  :D

The taxes angle is tricky, can always scare ppl with it, this one worked wonders in the UK back in the day.

How much is all this 'change' gonna cost :)

I think it could certainly be argued that FDR, Nixon, and that Reagan did, among others.  They may not have always changed it in the ways that they planned, but changed it they did.
Thing that stuck in my mind was what he said about special interest lobbies. Obama wanted to do away with them. I can't for the life of me imagine how he could pull that off.
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DarkPenguin

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2008, 02:06:56 pm »

How much is all this 'change' gonna cost :)

Less than the war, I should think.

Tax and spend vs borrow and bomb.
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KingSparta

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2008, 11:33:35 am »

Quote
I'd rather see a Libertarian such as Ron Paul win, however unlikely.

He may get 1%

Neal Boortz Would Be A Good Candidate, but i am sure he does not want to take a pay cut.

I wish they would put a cap on what the government wants to take from my pocket.
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DarkPenguin

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Re: OT: first time I've wanted to be an American...
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2008, 01:07:38 pm »

I wish they would put a cap on what the government wants to take from my pocket.

They do - it's 100%.
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