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[tunetyme]

This runs along the DJ thread but it is separate.  I am still using MC 12 because I do not see any benefit to upgrade (cost is not the issue).  I bought MC because of the database and the flexibility to add your own fields.  I have also been a supporter of a relational database and a linux version as well. 

My interests run more towards the audiophile end of the spectrum.  I spend a lot of time building playlists based on theme, key, BPM and just plain listening to the transitions until I get the right pieces of music in the right order to create themood desired.  With the current MC set up it takes days to build a 3 or 4 hour playlist.  I have made some suggestions on additional features in other threads to better facilitate this process. 

My fundamental concern today is that when I make a correction or move files they end up deleted from my playlists.  For example, I found that freedb misspells Beethoven, When I corrected it and it’s file folder then re-imported the files including deleting the old files from the database I discovered that they were also deleted from my playlists.  My understanding was that these lists are written to separate files.  When I open my playlists it should show me all the deleted files.  It doesn’t.  This is an essential feature. 

Tunetyme   

[Peter_T]

Why don't you make the changes in MC?  Then everything points to the right place.

To re-name a file &/or folder right-click and Choose Library Tools -> Rename, Move and Copy Files.

If you start managing your media outside your media manager, things don't always go as you planned.  Better to figure out how MC does it internally than to lose all you hard work building playlists.

[glynor]

Exactly.  Managing the files the way you're doing it is what is causing you this issue.  MC's Rename, Move, and Copy File tool (might be called "Rename Files from Properties" in MC12) can do this task easily while keeping the files intact in the MC database.  The whole point of maintaining a database in MC is that it can abstract the files on disk, and manage them for you.  If a file-tag is incorrect, then you fix the tag in the file, and then (if you care) update the filename and path using the appropriate tool in MC.

Removing a file from MC's database is removing the file.  If you delete the files out of MC's database, I would certainly expect them to be removed from all playlists as well.  It would be a "bug" to me if it acted any other way.

[tunetyme]

I respectfully disagree.  In other software, if I create a playlist it is stored as a separate file.  (MC can import them)

Unfortunately, your recommendations assume everything is normal, what about disk crashes, or files that are damaged and a host of other problems that occur to all of us.  Your big investment is the time to build your playlists.  There isn't any apparent way to print your list from MC either.

One of the things I really like about MC is the fact that most things are also stored in the tags (lyrics, BPM, etc.).  So if something happens to MC I still have the information in the tags.  My investment of time to download lyrics is protected. 

Bluntly, I have my wish list for MC too, but this is absolutely essential that the playlists be stored as a separate file.  When you open your playlist it should show which files that are missing just like it does in the complete listing.  I've lost a lot of work because I assumed that MC stored playlists like other software. 

I didn't buy MC so I could connect to everything in the world.  If I did, I would have bought a Panasonic, then I would get a toaster, boom box, can opener, that also slices and dices for you too.  I simply want a great system that manages my music and protects my investment of time.  If MC doesn't want to or can't provide it, fine, just say so.

[Frobozz]

  There isn't any apparent way to print your list from MC either.

It is possible to save a playlist as a text file or HTML file.

Right-click on the playlist
Select "Export Playlist..."

You can export as an HTML file, text file, ASX, or M3U.

[Frobozz]

Playlists and other aspects of MC that break just because a file was renamed or modified outside of MC is not good.  Almost always not what the user would want to have happen.

Brainstorming ideas here.
What about storing a magic key value (maybe a GUID) in the tag for each file.  If a file is renamed and lost from a playlist it can be found again by searching all files for that GUID.  That would only work with files that have tagging support and the user would also need to enable writing to tags.

What about doing the same but using NTFS ADS (Alternate Data Stream).  Write a magic key to the ADS for each file.  That would only work if the files are saved on an NTFS drive.  Wouldn't work for FAT32 drives or various network storage drives.  The ADS will stay with the file even if the file is renamed.  The ADS might be lost though if a third party application rewrites the file.

[Peter_T]

I really like where you're going here... it would at least work for (most) music and photos. 

Brainstorming ideas here.
What about storing a magic key value (maybe a GUID) in the tag for each file.  If a file is renamed and lost from a playlist it can be found again by searching all files for that GUID.  That would only work with files that have tagging support and the user would also need to enable writing to tags.

What about doing the same but using NTFS ADS (Alternate Data Stream).  Write a magic key to the ADS for each file.  That would only work if the files are saved on an NTFS drive.  Wouldn't work for FAT32 drives or various network storage drives.  The ADS will stay with the file even if the file is renamed.  The ADS might be lost though if a third party application rewrites the file.

[Matt]

Playlists and other aspects of MC that break just because a file was renamed or modified outside of MC is not good.  Almost always not what the user would want to have happen.

Brainstorming ideas here.
What about storing a magic key value (maybe a GUID) in the tag for each file.  If a file is renamed and lost from a playlist it can be found again by searching all files for that GUID.  That would only work with files that have tagging support and the user would also need to enable writing to tags.

What about doing the same but using NTFS ADS (Alternate Data Stream).  Write a magic key to the ADS for each file.  That would only work if the files are saved on an NTFS drive.  Wouldn't work for FAT32 drives or various network storage drives.  The ADS will stay with the file even if the file is renamed.  The ADS might be lost though if a third party application rewrites the file.

Auto-import will already fix broken links, as long as you have it looking in the new location so it finds the moved file.

[AoXoMoXoA]

Playlists and other aspects of MC that break just because a file was renamed or modified outside of MC is not good.  Almost always not what the user would want to have happen.

Not sure what was meant by a playlist 'breaking' or what you would expect MC (or any other software) to do in such a situation.

Of course the file you moved/renamed/changed outside of MC will no longer be in the MC Library/database or will show as missing since MC has no way of knowing what you did "behind it's back" . . . . MC is not omniscient.

MC has many handy and powerful tools for file management, which when used maintains the integrity of your Library/database and all of it's Playlists. Problem solved

[tunetyme]

Problem solved

How?  It seems that the problem hasn't been explained clearly and/or it hasn't been understood.  Both Peter_T and Frobuzz get it. 

If you can import and export to M3U file format why can't you automatically store the playlist information in that standard format?  If it is stored external to MC database then there is no problem if something is done outside MC. 

I turned off automatic import because it does things without my specific knowledge.  For example if a folder with some music is damaged an unreadable I will never know it unless I specifically seek that folder from my own memory.  I have over 14,000 songs in my database and I don't remember all of them.  That's why I have MC and not just a library of CD's.

This isn't a wish list item this is vital to the integrity of the system as a whole.  I want to know if some file is damaged,  lost, or duplicated.  I use multiple disks to store my music and at times I need to rearrange my files.  There have been times when I have lost files or they were damaged.  When I can identify that, then I can replace them from my hard copy.  The problem is not solved and it appears that some just want to blow it off. 

Tunetyme

[AoXoMoXoA]

You can save and export playlists [Files > Library > Export Playlist] thus saving any/all playlists.

"Problem solved" was regarding the "breaking" of playlists as when files are managed/moved/changed inside MC the  Playlists will not break.

I am not trying to 'blow it off', rather it appears that you are creating the problem for yourself by making changes outside of Media Center. It is not just a player but a music manager/file manager as well and using it as such will eliminate the problem as I understand it.

Storing the playlist outside MC is only half the solution since although it may protect the playlist, when you change the file outside of MC it still causes the playlist to reference a file that is no longer there.
But I may be misunderstanding you as to what the problem is.

[tunetyme]

it still causes the playlist to reference a file that is no longer there.

Exactly!  That is what I want to know.  Then I can repair it without the loss of hours and hours of work building the playlists.  S*** happens to files outside of MC.  I want to know when that happens.  That is why steps need to be taken to protect user's work product (playlists).  Right now it just disappears from the playlist altering the playlist.

When we input lyrics they are also stored in the tags.  Not so with playlists.  Both of these efforts by users (work products) need to be protected.  Even if you are protecting the user from themselves.  I think storing playlists as M3U files will solve the problem.  I also think this should be the standard mode and not a requirement for the user to do it manually.

Tunetyme

[Alex B]

You can disable the "fix broken links" auto-import option (or the background auto-importer completely, like I usually do). Then the playlists will remain intact even when accidents happen outside MC.

[jack wallstreet]

You can disable the "fix broken links" auto-import option (or the background auto-importer completely, like I usually do). Then the playlists will remain intact even when accidents happen outside MC.

I have been trying for two years to solve the MC playlist issue where songs just disappear with no ability to identify a problem and fix them.  Sounds like the "fix" was always there.  I look forward to trying Alex's solution.  Thanks very much

[tunetyme]

Alex B.  I do have the auto import function disabled.  It still happens.  When you manually clean up your files (deleting listings that have a star burst in the cover art field) it also deletes it from the playlists.  If the playlists are independent files stored as M3Us then the missing file is still there on the M3U list.  I can then act on it and replace it. 

What I don't understand is why is this such a big deal to store playlists in an M3U format?  All I want to do is protect my work product from me as well as mechanical failures or other acts of God.

I periodically refine my file system.  At first everything was under "music".   It became unwieldy for back ups because of the time involved in backing up everything at once (400 GB takes a long time to backup).   Now I have it broken into some broad categories like rock, classical, jazz, etc. and I anticipate over time each will eventually have it's own database.  I keep refining it because the more I use the system the more I see the need for refinement.

Tunetyme

[bunglemebaby]

My fundamental concern today is that when I make a correction or move files they end up deleted from my playlists.  For example, I found that freedb misspells Beethoven, When I corrected it and it’s file folder then re-imported the files including deleting the old files from the database I discovered that they were also deleted from my playlists.  My understanding was that these lists are written to separate files.  When I open my playlists it should show me all the deleted files.  It doesn’t.  This is an essential feature.

I periodically refine my file system.  At first everything was under "music".   It became unwieldy for back ups because of the time involved in backing up everything at once (400 GB takes a long time to backup).   Now I have it broken into some broad categories like rock, classical, jazz, etc. and I anticipate over time each will eventually have it's own database.  I keep refining it because the more I use the system the more I see the need for refinement.

Are you doing your file modifications from within MC or from an external tool (Windows Explorer, Mp3Tag, etc)? From perusing this posting, I thought that

You can disable the "fix broken links"

was your answer.

I would suggest posting here, step by step with as much detail as possible, what your usual work flow is. 
I would guess that someone on these forums can help you figure out an acceptable solution without any changes to the MC code. MC is very powerful for these sorts of things, but sometimes it takes a little digging to understand exactly how some of the subtler features operate.

This isn't a wish list item this is vital to the integrity of the system as a whole.

Different strokes for different folks... if I delete a file from my system, I don't ever want to see it or hear from it again.

-JB

[Alex B]

Alex B.  I do have the auto import function disabled.  It still happens.  When you manually clean up your files (deleting listings that have a star burst in the cover art field) it also deletes it from the playlists.  If the playlists are independent files stored as M3Us then the missing file is still there on the M3U list.  I can then act on it and replace it. 

That's why I specifically said "when accidents happen outside MC". As others have said, you can save playlists manually to disk files.

What I don't understand is why is this such a big deal to store playlists in an M3U format?  All I want to do is protect my work product from me as well as mechanical failures or other acts of God.

I periodically refine my file system.  At first everything was under "music".   It became unwieldy for back ups because of the time involved in backing up everything at once (400 GB takes a long time to backup).   Now I have it broken into some broad categories like rock, classical, jazz, etc. and I anticipate over time each will eventually have it's own database.  I keep refining it because the more I use the system the more I see the need for refinement.

For your sake I hope JRiver will introduce a solution to your problem.

Though, it is a big complex problem. They probably could create a feature that would automatically save new or changed playlists to files, but that would not protect the old playlists on the disk when you delete files inside MC. Also the file deletions would be registered as changes and end up to the saved playlist files.

As the playlists work now, they are index lists that link library files. When a library file is removed it is removed from all places in the user interface because all places show the same file. There are no separate library entries for the files in the playlists.

EDIT

Personally, I never remove library files if my actions make them temporarily offline. After I have done what ever I was doing outside MC I fix the links inside MC. I value my statistics. I imported the oldest files in main library about seven years ago using MJ8. Since then I have always moved the same library to new program versions, drives and PCs.

[tunetyme]

bunglemebaby

Your request is reasonable.  I will do my best to be brief but complete.  If anything is unclear please ask and I will clarify it. 

I have an eclectic collection of music.  I discovered that when I made backups (copy in windows) to the same backup disk changes in the tag like the addition of lyrics and BPM etc. were not saved to the backup disk.  To have these changes in the tags saved I needed to use ”Synctoy” a Microsoft utility.  It’s good but takes forever and always leads to a massive defrag afterwards.  To streamline the process, I created multiple file folders on 3 different hard disks plus 3 backup disks.  I am back down to 2 disks now.  In the past 3 years, I have experienced a disk crash and a motherboard died.  As you can see, I have experienced a number of the worst nightmare scenarios. 

To reduce the time to make backups I created multiple folders to store songs based on genre like rock, classical, jazz etc.  This allows me to work on a segment of my collection and then do a backup without taking forever.  Yes, I move things around in windows and not in MC.  I do this because I can see exactly what is going on.  If I screw up I know what happened and how to fix it.  I became uncomfortable with MC and specifically with the automatic update feature after I lost a disk and I was restoring files from a backup.  This backup was not completely current and some of the music I had ripped was not on the backup and I was counting on MC to identify the missing CD’s.  Auto update deleted the files.  So instead of being able to identify just the missing ones I had to go through every CD I own and verify that it was in MC.  I’ve since learned to turn that default feature off.  To the best of my knowledge there is no “undo” feature in MC. 

As the saying goes, you have to pay for your education.  I don’t like it, but I accept that that is the way it is.  A few months ago the motherboard went and I had to do a complete “new” install of Windows XP.  That means I have to install all my software as well including MC.  Since 12 just finished its development cycle I downloaded and installed it.  It would not recognize the previous version database (an earlier version of 12) so I had to import all my files again.  No big deal, most of the information was in the tags.  Playlists are different matter, they are gone.

Murphy, the optimist, had it right, what can go wrong will.  Because of my experience, I do some things manually without relying on MC.  I’ve again started building playlists when the current events happened that I believe I’ve outlined completely in the above posts. 

Alex_B, I do not use rating or frequency of play to make a playlist.  Those stats are not significant for me if they were I would hope they are stored in the tags where you could recover the info in the event of a problem.  I certianly hope JRiver will introduce a solution as well.

I love my music and I invest a significant amount of time to put together great playlists and I hate losing all that effort when it could be avoided.  That’s why I do backups so I don’t have spend the next 6 months ripping CDs.  If the playlist info is stored in the tags or a M3U file is okay with me.  I think it is very reasonable to request that the users work product is protected.  I've invested 3 years to put put my music on my computer and I don't want to start from ground zero again. 

Tunetyme

[Matt]

The JRiver solution is to make a library backup.  The program even does this for you automatically (albeit to the same drive in some cases).

You can also export playlists (or all playlists) from the File menu.

You mentioned having a problem restoring a library backup, but unless you had drive corruption (i.e. bad backups) this won't happen.  And new versions of Media Center can always read old backup. 

Spreading library data around to different formats and folders only makes the challenges of backup more complicated in my opinion.

[tunetyme]

Thanks for your response Matt.
 
You can duplicate the problem with the restore by taking a hard disk with its' operating system and MC loaded ( slightly earlier version of the final 12).  Install it in another computer that has a different motherboard and chipset.  Windows XP will force you to do a "new" install.  After you follow the directions reinstall MC (the final version of 12) and try to recover your database.  I think you will find the same problem I had.

I am not trying to rag on MC.  The majority of the problems I have outlined are not MC's problem.  They are however, problems we have all experienced from time to time.  I am trying to point out a very important point of great concern that I have become very passionate about. 

I've invested thousands and thousands of hours for all the songs I have on my system. That counts initial research to buy, ripping, verifying, importing, rating, and locating and downloading lyrics and a backup.  I have invested  somewhere between $15,000 to $20,000 to buy CDs plus hardware.  MC is a very small part of my investment.  I know that there are a number of people here who dwarf my investment.

What I am asking is that JRiver come up with a solution that protects my investment of time to create playlists, like it does with lyrics and other info stored in the tag.  My solution is to automatically create and store playlists in an M3U file.  That gives it portability as well as a hard copy external to MC.  Then in the unfortunate event that a user has a problem they don't have to lose all their efforts.  I believe that it is a reasonable request that all your users will benefit from.  Reliability still sells product and these kinds of features become real tangible benefits to users and buyers of your products.

Tunetyme

[jack wallstreet]

Tunetyme,

I maintain 365 playlists (more all the time) and make changes to the playlists and the files themselves routinely.  I have a 40,000 song database.  As a result, I have similar concerns about my playlists.  However, I do agree with most of the respondants that you are likely making this more difficult than it is and should look at changing your way of operating to better suit the strengths of MC (including backup).  For what its worth (maybe not much), I'll comment on things I do.

1. I used to use musicmatch for year which had the separate playlists.  There were advantages to that, but the advantages of the MC approach far outweigh the small disadvantages such as the one you mention.

2. I make sure my tags contain all relevant information (as you do).
3. I export playlists and copy my playlists relgiously to several locations.  Playlists can be restored in groups by importing them (I have tested that).  You do not have to recreate them if they are not in the database for some reason.
3. I copy my playlists in playlist order to an Excel spreadsheet in case a playlist gets damaged and I lose a file from it.  I just look it up on the Xcel spreadsheet.  Copying 365 playlists to a spreadsheet is not totally trivial but it doesn't take long and works perfectly.  I also make a separate Excel file of the entire library (Haven't had to refer to that yet.)
4. I do a straight simple backup of my 40,000 files and the playlists and several copies of the library to an external drive which I store offsite.  I do that about every 45 days.
5. I store everything on a RAID 1 array to have automatic backup. (doesn't backup errors).
6. I have turned off "fix broken links" as Alex suggested so if I mess up something outside of MC, it shows up.
7. The previous step doesn't stop mistakes (incorrectly deleting files) from messing up playlists when in MC so I create custom tags where I enter the names of playlists (I generally only have one and never more than two playlists per song, so that's why that works).
8 I have trouble imagining MC problems with a library restore, but even if that happens, you should have been able to do the import (as I have done) and then import the playlists from the list you created doing an export.

Hope this provides some ideas for you, as I know how important playlists can be.

[tunetyme]

Thanks for your advice John.  I will start working on that now.  Once I get this all straightened out I can again start focusing on expanding my CD collection.  I’ve invested a lot of time to try to get all the organization issues resolved before expanding my music collection.  When you get to a collection your size the problems only become worse. 

I did try the export process of my entire database a couple of years ago and because of some special characters in the file I couldn’t import it with Excel or Word.  I posted questions about being able to export to a comma delimited flat file.  No luck.  So at JRiver’s request I sent my exported file to them to see if the could identify the problem.  No response.

MC has done enough things “automatically” that I don’t completely trust MC.  I now keep dbpower amp player and database as a means to help protect against missing files. 

It seems the real solution for me is to develop a relational database to mange my files.  I had hoped that I wouldn’t need to do that.  I am going to check out dbpower amp’s export features.  It doesn’t have all the information that I have inputted into MC but the information is in the tags.  I am sure I can find a way to read them. 

Well, I’ve been wanting to migrate to linux I guess now’s the time.  My music has been the only hold up.   

As you review all the recent development it is clearly focused on video and it appears that those of us who have some real needs for audio have become second class citizens.  I am really disappointed.  What is sad is that this topic doesn’t reflect all the really good qualities of MC. 

[keither]

All of these suggestions, of course, prohibit live backup and restore, or a fully-functional multiple PC setup.

I use Windows Live Sync to keep music updated between my laptop, my home PC, and my work PC.  Since MC writes out changes to the files, this is great for me.  As I make a comment on my laptop, it will automatically be distributed to my home PC and work PC where MC will import the changes.  Instant sync.  Sure, there are fields in the database that can't be written to mp3, so not everything gets transferred, but I do my DJing only from my laptop, so that's the only place I need the extended tagging.

I have an ultraportable laptop (Lenovo X200) - no CD drive, so I have to rip on my home PC.  Those ripped files are immediately transferred over to my laptop and added to my music library.  If I'm at a gig and I download something from emusic, it's immediately brought into the library without my intervention.  Turning off auto-import breaks me.

Perhaps what's needed is an option to auto-import to NOT remove broken links from the library.  Removing the broken links is something that is already being done as an independent part of auto-import.  Wouldn't NOT doing that be pretty easy?  Then, the broken links would still show up in the playlists and we'd have the opportunity to fix them.  That's a pretty small feature as opposed to moving the playlists into external files.

[jack wallstreet]

there is an option to not remove broken links under the auto import options.  It helps a lot.

[keither]

Really?  Does it keep the broken links in playlists also?  Sounds like it's time for an experiment!  Someone who's not about to go out, try it out and report.    [j/k - I'll check it out soon, although if someone knows for sure, I'd love to hear it.]

[jack wallstreet]

Really?  Does it keep the broken links in playlists also?  Sounds like it's time for an experiment!  Someone who's not about to go out, try it out and report.    [j/k - I'll check it out soon, although if someone knows for sure, I'd love to hear it.]

Yes it does.  Alex suggested earlier in this thread and I tested it.  (broken links from outside MC)

[keither]

Awesome!

Tunetyme - Have you had a chance to give it a try?  This might fix your problem completely.

[tunetyme]

I really appreciate every-one's help.  I've turned off the auto update and that does help.  I do back ups but I don't do it every day.  I really like the feature that MC does regular backups.  I've run into a series of events where what should work, doesn't.  I've tried to point out that much of the negative experiences I've had are outside of MC.  What I am trying to encourage JRiver to do is build in some safe guards to help prevent these things happening to others as well.   

The point Matt made about doing backups is correct but what I find is that I am having to do things outside of MC which according to many of the posts is the cause of the problems.  It's a catch 22 do it in MC but MC doesn't do what I want and need or I can't get it to work.  Do it outside of MC and that creates the problem.  If I could get the export function to work, that would help.  Somewhere down the line freedb put some special characters into the database and I can't find them.  I can export but I can't import.  I would love to be able to export to a comma delimited flat file and have my playlists stored automatically in a M3U format.  It appears the only focus right now is on the video aspects of the MC program.  As they say, no response is a clear response.

Jack Wallstreet, Alex_B, and keither I would love to start a new thread about building playlists.  I know that there are a number of different methods and it would be great to share ideas.  Alex_B developed some type of dual window dj setup.  I saw it once while I was looking for something else and now I can't find it. 

[Doof]

what I find is that I am having to do things outside of MC which according to many of the posts is the cause of the problems.  It's a catch 22 do it in MC but MC doesn't do what I want and need or I can't get it to work.

I guess the part that's confusing me, is what are you doing outside of MC that can't be done from within MC? Maybe you already said it, but I must have missed it.

[keither]

To answer from my own side - there are intended actions (adding or changing files via Live Sync from a different machine) and unintended actions (files go bad, things get moved, etc.).  Saying "Well you can do everything you need to do in MC" first off isn't true, and second, doesn't take into account when things go wrong, which is what Tunetyme is getting at.

[AoXoMoXoA]

So let me see if I understand this,

your library is made up of music files which are located on your back-up drive, then imported, thus subject to change from the source drive when a back-up is run?

How are the source drive's files being changed? Are they being edited in Windows Explorer or another software package thus needing to be updated on your back-up/library drive?

[keither]

I explained my situation earlier in the thread.  Please scroll up.

[tunetyme]

After all the discussion above I think it boils down to this.  To protect the integrity of your playlists from auto update and events outside of MC you need to manually back up your playlists by exporting them.  I think the M3U format is the most likely choice. 

What is the chance of having MC do this as a part of the back up routines?

[Mike Noe]

If you have an automated backup procedure that you have scripted (or even if it's manual), you could make use of the messaging api.  I use AutoHotKey to automate my playlist backup/copy as such:

Code: [Select]

...else if A_ThisMenuItemPos=5
 {
   if !MC_Running()
    {
     run, mc13.exe /start
     WinWaitActive, ahk_class MJFrame
    }
   MC_Cmd(20004)  ; Exports all playlists
.
.
.
Return
}

; "wrapper" for sending commands to MC
MC_Cmd(pCommand, pParam="")  {
 DetectHiddenWindows On
 SendMessage, 33768, %pCommand%, %pParam%, , ahk_class MJFrame
 DetectHiddenWindows Off
}


My backup script then picks up my playlists (.M3U) in the normal course of the backup event.  My only complaint is that MC pops up a msgbox upon completion (I wish there was a "silent" option).

Not sure if this addresses all of your issues, but it solves the playlist backup problem for me.

HTH.

[Lasse_Lus]

My backup script then picks up my playlists (.M3U) in the normal course of the backup event.  My only complaint is that MC pops up a msgbox upon completion (I wish there was a "silent" option).

wish no more  use 20004,1

[Mike Noe]

^^
LOL, too easy, I should have known!!  Thx.

[tunetyme]

I have one question Mike.
 
When you run this script does it overwrite your previous backup?  If so, what happens if auto update deletes missing files?  Your backup will now reflect the changes.

What I was hoping for is the ability to date stamp the backups.  Could that be added to the script?

Tunetyme

[keither]

After all the discussion above I think it boils down to this.  To protect the integrity of your playlists from auto update and events outside of MC you need to manually back up your playlists by exporting them.  I think the M3U format is the most likely choice.

If you turn off "Fix Broken Links", then MC seems to protect playlist integrity.  Which is not to say that you shouldn't export your playlists, but here was my experiment with Auto-Update + Fix Broken Links.

I left Auto-Update on and went into a folder that was managed by MC and copies one of the audio tracks in Explorer.  It showed up as expected in Media Center.  I dragged that file into a playlist, and then deleted it from Explorer.  The icon then changed to show that the file was gone, but the playlist didn't update.  Then I could remove the file from the library at my leisure.

The one type of problem not addressed by this is the database nature of MC vs. the snapshot nature of M3U.  A playlist in MC is just a list of objects in the database.  As the database changes over time, the playlist will automatically update to account for tag changes, edits to the file, etc.  An M3U is static and records things as they are at the time you export.  There's utility in both ways, certainly.

[Mike Noe]

When you run this script does it overwrite your previous backup?  If so, what happens if auto update deletes missing files?  Your backup will now reflect the changes.

If you're referring to the MC Export of all Playlists, the answer is Yes, it overwrites the existing files from the previous export.  But the order of events is: 1. Export 2. Backup files, so the next export does not affect the previous backup

If you're referring to my backup script, the answer is No.  I have a rotating device/folder increment that allows me to control the number of backup "versions" I keep.

The one type of problem not addressed by this is the database nature of MC vs. the snapshot nature of M3U.  A playlist in MC is just a list of objects in the database.  As the database changes over time, the playlist will automatically update to account for tag changes, edits to the file, etc.  An M3U is static and records things as they are at the time you export.

THis is an excellent point and since we know this, appropriate actions can be taken.

[tunetyme]

A playlist in MC is just a list of objects in the database.  As the database changes over time, the playlist will automatically update to account for tag changes, edits to the file, etc.  An M3U is static and records things as they are at the time you export.

I have a very simple view of a playlist.  It is nothing more than a sequental list of songs to be played.  An M3U format does that just fine.  When things are updated in the rest of the file and let's say I import a M3U backup into MC then all the updates will be there. 

As I said at the begining of the post, my interest leans toward the audiophile.  With that in mind, what I would like to be able to do with a playlist is to adjust gain, work through several different kinds of mixing and be able to store that in the playlist file.  You hit on some of those issues in your DJ thread.

Tunetyme

If you're referring to my backup script, the answer is No.  I have a rotating device/folder increment that allows me to control the number of backup "versions" I keep.

Thanks, that will work for me.  I can set up a folder for each month and export to the current month.

[keither]

As I said at the begining of the post, my interest leans toward the audiophile.  With that in mind, what I would like to be able to do with a playlist is to adjust gain, work through several different kinds of mixing and be able to store that in the playlist file.  You hit on some of those issues in your DJ thread.

I'm starting to see some traction in that thread, too, which means that the JR folks are definitely listening.  Maybe one day we'll have all of that. 

[D.gaump]

I have the very same issues.

My music & photos had been working fine for a year. 

 Can someone out there please help us? 

 thanks,

   Chris

[tunetyme]

Chris:

What issues do you have?  This thread has covered a lot of territory and it will help if you can provide specifics about the kind of problems you are experiencing.

Tunetyme