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Author Topic: Blu-Ray  (Read 10025 times)

benn600

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Blu-Ray
« on: July 05, 2009, 09:54:38 am »

What is the current status of Blu Ray in Media Center?  How difficult is it to rip the discs and can they then be played from MC as conveniently as DVDs are?  Is there any chance additional efforts can be made to add Blu Ray support?
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fitbrit

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2009, 11:26:17 am »

The final movie file itself (m2ts format) can be played just fine with the right directshow filters. The problem arises in navigating the BD menus.
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benn600

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2009, 12:32:33 pm »

How much progress can JRiver make on this?  I know with the iPhone support has been very limited and I don't blame JRiver.  Apple really makes some integration a pain.  But will we see good Blu-Ray support sometime soon?
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fitbrit

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2009, 12:59:00 pm »

How much progress can JRiver make on this?  I know with the iPhone support has been very limited and I don't blame JRiver.  Apple really makes some integration a pain.  But will we see good Blu-Ray support sometime soon?

I really hope so. I want to use jrmc for all my media.
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flac.rules

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2009, 02:13:40 pm »

At the veary least i hope they get it to work to the point that you only will need AnyDVD HD in addition, wich i probably will be using anyway.
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fitbrit

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2009, 05:14:03 pm »

At the veary least i hope they get it to work to the point that you only will need AnyDVD HD in addition, wich i probably will be using anyway.

I think that's the best anyone can hope for. Playing BD without AnyDVD reliably is said to be near impossible.
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jmone

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2009, 01:11:50 am »

Jim has stated that Blu-ray support is not a priority at this stage (which is a shame for us Blu-ray users).  Any way, you currently have a couple of options to manage and playback Blu-ray content in MC:

1) Blu-ray Disc Playback - Your out of luck using MC, while for the most part there are Direct Show filters available that can handled the Video and Audio Streams on Blu-ray, at this stage there is no Navigation Filters available. 

2) Extracted File Playback - There are plenty of threads on the Web on how to extract your desired Video and Audio streams and mux them into a file that can be mangaged and played like any other file (eg search on Blu-ray to MKV).

3) ISO Playback - I use MC to view then launch Blu-ray / HD-DVD iso's that are then mounted by Virtual Clone / played by TMT or PowerDVD then back again including some scripts - have a look at http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=43879.0
Thanks
Nathan
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fitbrit

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2009, 01:56:33 am »

Jim has stated that Blu-ray support is not a priority at this stage (which is a shame for us Blu-ray users).  Any way, you currently have a couple of options to manage and playback Blu-ray content in MC:

1) Blu-ray Disc Playback - Your out of luck using MC, while for the most part there are Direct Show filters available that can handled the Video and Audio Streams on Blu-ray, at this stage there is no Navigation Filters available. 

2) Extracted File Playback - There are plenty of threads on the Web on how to extract your desired Video and Audio streams and mux them into a file that can be mangaged and played like any other file (eg search on Blu-ray to MKV).

3) ISO Playback - I use MC to view then launch Blu-ray / HD-DVD iso's that are then mounted by Virtual Clone / played by TMT or PowerDVD then back again including some scripts - have a look at http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=43879.0
Thanks
Nathan

Thanks Nathan for the summary of our options.
The players that DO play BD right now sell very well. But there's constant dissatisfaction with them from the audio perspective. I think it'd be a bit much to expect MC to get it right, while the big boys like Cyberlink and Arcsoft have to bend to the whim of Sony et al with the protected audio pathways for HD sound etc. Perhaps a cool tool for MC14/15 would be ripping of blurays/converting to mkv format with an easy set up and user interface, while preserving lossless sound by converting to FLAC. That's something I'd totally go for. I know of the threads that exist for converting to  mkv, but they all require the use of multiple programs, often with command line interfaces, or rudimentary GUIs.
I'd rather have an interface that allows me to check that I want to convert whichever audio track I choose to the MC compatible format I prefer, and hit "convert"... yielding a nice 1080p mkv at the end of it. Kind of like handbrake, but with lossless sound and HD video.
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Daydream

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2009, 02:49:33 am »

I'd rather have an interface that allows me to check that I want to convert whichever audio track I choose to the MC compatible format I prefer, and hit "convert"... yielding a nice 1080p mkv at the end of it. Kind of like handbrake, but with lossless sound and HD video.
Fingers crossed MakeMKV gets the lossless audio too at some point...
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gappie

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2009, 03:37:13 am »

Fingers crossed MakeMKV gets the lossless audio too at some point...
thanks a lot.. that is a great tip, i dont use bluray, but this makes ripping to mkv a lot easier for me, was still using dvd decript/mkv merge... :P

 :)
gab
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benn600

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2009, 10:20:25 am »

At least it looks like I'll get Blu Ray working to some extent.  As crazy as it sounds, I have a bet riding on this.  From my research I can rip and convert them to another format--movie only.  I'm not quite sure if this qualified as success for my bet but that's mainly because we didn't discuss the details.
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Daydream

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2009, 03:11:10 pm »

thanks a lot.. that is a great tip, i dont use bluray, but this makes ripping to mkv a lot easier for me, was still using dvd decript/mkv merge... :P

For the record (in case some other users stumbles over this), MakeMKV works with any blu-ray, outputting one single mkv file. The problem is that for Blu-Ray with lossless audio, it'll only extract the "core track" (lossy) not the whole lossless data. It's unclear to me where MakeMKV it's going, they seem to have some interest in defeating decryption too; it would've been much better if they would focus on solving the lossless audio problem (which already is doable with free tools for Dolby TrueHD but requires third party libraries for DTS-MA), and have everything in one package.

Does anybody have an educated guess how much are the Blu-Ray specs (not licenses but the specs). The big, fat book with everything, BD-Java and whatnot, not just generalities published here and there? $50,000? (it's a number totally off the top of my head since that info is not exactly publicly available).
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benn600

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2009, 03:25:04 pm »

I'm delaying buying exclusively Blu Ray until I can get them integrated into my entertainment system as cleanly ad DVDs.
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Daydream

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2009, 04:37:54 pm »

I never understood the "waiting" part - that's one of my big dissatisfaction, aside from encryption, with the movie industry. I'm not impatient, but I do not understand to wait as the movie industry will have it.

There are also things that work at a certain time. Now I'm transitioning my collection to high-def. It is a lot of updating work. Historically this will reach a critical point when pretty much all I wanted to have I'll have it and things will slow down considerably since I'll be looking after only some new releases and whatever back catalog that interest me hasn't been released yet. This started let's say in 2006, we're almost 3 years later. This year and next and maybe another one everything should go really fast, really crazy, really getting most of the things I want.

After that I'll slow down and do something else. Go scuba-diving, write a book, fly to the moon, whatever. I am not going to toy around with my collection day in - day out, waiting, working on it, debating, moving from one ripping technique to another, more waiting, etc. It's just a collection, it is meant to serve me. The sooner the better.

Also, there is the psychological fact - oh, I'd like to have them, the movies are out there, but I'm not enjoying them because, well, I'm waiting. With so much computer power and storage around available relatively cheap these days, screw it. Buy 5 or 10 Blu-Ray readers, rip the streams, write some batch files (as an automation at the very least if not something else, better) to remux the streams, done. Then just watch out for the new releases. When not needed anymore sell the players on ebay or whatever.

Needles to say, it's not the money spent on these things, it's the time they expect you to wait (or make everything so much more difficult to force you to wait) that makes me really mad.
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jmone

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2009, 12:17:57 am »

Try ClownBD - http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=25818 it does almost everything including transcoding your Audio to FLAC or LPCM but the contain will be M2TS / TS so you don't get subs and chapters.....
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benn600

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2009, 11:38:08 pm »

If it makes any difference: JRiver, please start integrating Blu Ray as soon as possible.
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jmone

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2009, 11:44:55 pm »

Like all things MC - user demand helps drive up the priority  ;D
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Osho

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2009, 10:07:20 pm »

Yet another plea from Blu-Ray...

Osho
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jacky

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2009, 02:25:44 pm »

Integration with TMT3 since it supports Blu-Ray folder playback will be great! ;D
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jmone

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2009, 09:34:00 pm »

I've posted over at Arcsoft for those interested.... http://www.arcsoft.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3029
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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2009, 05:32:15 pm »

Yet another desperate plea for Blu-ray support! 
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datdude

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2009, 02:49:29 pm »

Try ClownBD - http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=25818 it does almost everything including transcoding your Audio to FLAC or LPCM but the contain will be M2TS / TS so you don't get subs and chapters.....

jmone,

Thanks for that post.

I  tried messing around with ClownBD and it helps to reduce file size significantly!  I'm ok with not having menu's and chapters BUT, I can't get the m2ts files to seek properly in MC.  MC will fastforward and rewind, but it won't actually show it skipping scenes visually on the screen.  It just sits there and then when pressing play again, immediatly jumps to however far forward or backwards it went.

This is not good for me, expecially with just a remote and no mouse control to know how far I have seeked.

Is there anyway to fix this either in MC, or in ClownBD?
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jmone

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2009, 06:03:10 pm »

Yeah, I see the problem as well but I think it is a bug in MC (or at least between MC and the Splitter - I bet you are using Haali).  FYI - seeking works fine in Windows Media Player on these files with the Haali splitter.....

Thanks
nathan
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datdude

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2009, 09:42:04 pm »

Good to know.
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benn600

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2009, 10:38:27 pm »

What's the latest on Blu-Ray support?  I'd really like to see it added to MC.
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datdude

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2009, 11:16:12 pm »

The latest I presume is that they don't support it. ;)
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MrHaugen

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2009, 01:56:04 am »

I'd never imagine my self playing a physical disk on my HTPC ever again. Those days are over for me. Maybe just for the ripping part. IF I rent a Blu-Ray disk, I'll use my PS3 to watch it instead.
Off-course, it would be nice with Blu-Ray support in MC, but not if it means higher cost of the application because of a Blu-Ray license.
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benn600

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2009, 10:21:54 am »

They can have a separate Blu-Ray plugin, built by JRiver, and those interested can pay for it.
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flac.rules

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2009, 03:09:05 am »

I'd never imagine my self playing a physical disk on my HTPC ever again. Those days are over for me. Maybe just for the ripping part. IF I rent a Blu-Ray disk, I'll use my PS3 to watch it instead.
Off-course, it would be nice with Blu-Ray support in MC, but not if it means higher cost of the application because of a Blu-Ray license.

Yeah, but the program also needs the support if one has blu-ray-images on disk.
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MrHaugen

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2009, 03:38:56 am »

I was thinking more of ripping to MKV. I'm pretty sick of using images really. I've used it for DVD's for a long time now. You'll have to use an external app to mount it, and then play it as a disk in MC. You'll not get the play count either. A single file is much better in my opinion.
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chriswale

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2009, 10:00:09 am »

I would also like to request BluRay support. Thank you.
In the meantime I will use MakeMKV and Handbrake.
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benn600

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2009, 10:42:57 am »

You don't have to use an image for a DVD.  You can store the files directly: /VIDEO_TS/ and then you get all the MC tagging abilities.
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MrHaugen

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2009, 11:43:10 am »

Yes, but after all the posts on this forum it doesn't look like it's as easy as just importing single files. I might be wrong though. A long time since I tried it. I just love to have things in one simple container. I'm not easy to please :)
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benn600

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2009, 01:58:23 pm »

MC actually handles complete DVD rips (VIDEO_TS) as single files.  I've been using this feature for quite a while now.  They work exactly like single files except in playback when you get the full menu, special features, etc.  This is good and bad.  If only MC would allow shortcut links to specific titles on the DVD (for example, each show on a television DVD)...then you could have the best of both worlds!  Upon selecting a DVD, MC could let you pick an episode, special feature Title, or start at the beginning (full DVD)...oh how amazing would that be!
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Daydream

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2009, 03:59:21 pm »

In the meantime I will use MakeMKV and Handbrake.

You are aware that with MakeMKV you don't get the lossless audio, right?

MC actually handles complete DVD rips (VIDEO_TS) as single files.  I've been using this feature for quite a while now.  They work exactly like single files except in playback when you get the full menu, special features, etc.  This is good and bad.  If only MC would allow shortcut links to specific titles on the DVD (for example, each show on a television DVD)...then you could have the best of both worlds!  Upon selecting a DVD, MC could let you pick an episode, special feature Title, or start at the beginning (full DVD)...oh how amazing would that be!

MC handles DVD ripped files (VIDEO_TS) but there is no magic. Everything is handled through MS DVD Navigator which is a filter that opens the DVD Volume, parses the streams from the vob files, splits them in video, audio, subtitles, sends them to their corresponding pins and also adds playback control to the environment. The filter in question is free and and can be called from any decoding chain. There is no such thing - as in free - for Blu-Ray. All 3 existing solutions - PowerDVD, WinDVD, Arcsoft Theater View - are locked down inside their own application. AFAIK jmone asked somewhere on the Arcsoft forum if the plugin treatment Win MCE got can be extended to other application but there was no reply.

Also, as far as I can tell the navigation inside a Blu-Ray is much more complex, given the Java menus and other tricks; as an educated guess I'd say it's much more than just the DVD VM machine used to just store & process a rather small (by comparison) amount of register values and navigational instructions. There is no connection between the two, so the implied (maybe I'm reading too much into it) argument of "if one works why not the other" is not really valid.

Now, I'm also of the opinion that mkv files are much better. With some observations. If you tag a VIDEO_TS entry that's something that happens internally in MC, you have no externally written tags. The same things happens with MKVs, but that should be possible, if mkv support is actually worked on and not left to collect dust in some development corner.

The other observation is to the people that would cry bloody murder for just ripping only the actual movies to mkv and "what happens to my dear extras?". Well me personally I can't carry less about the extras but I do understand the argument. In that respect mkv does support file linking so there is nothing stopping a certain category of purists to rip the main movies and the extras as separate files and link them in mkv containers. You play the movie (with chapters) and at the end the extras follow. This is not a very well known (and used) feature of MKV but it exists and it works.

So that would create a forever free solution to play Blu-Ray movies NOW. Without waiting or hopping for third-party tie-ins to help with playback/navigation.
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benn600

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2009, 04:23:48 pm »

Won't these commercial Blu-Ray playback programs play a Blu-Ray disc right from your hard drive?  Too bad there wasn't just a simple link: here, play this Blu-Ray, close then done...MC could track counts and everything.
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Daydream

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2009, 04:45:19 pm »

I can't say where the trend went with recent releases but the way I recall it, since sometime in the second half of 2008 PowerDVD stopped playing Blu-Rays from HDD. It will play back a mounted .iso but not folder/files.
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benn600

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2009, 07:37:10 pm »

VLC plays Blu-Ray from your hard drive great!  Just the video files, though.

This is a disaster of epic proportions.  I seriously want to stop buying all Blu-Ray and even DVD discs period.  Just plain sick of PAYING for a pain in the ***.
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Daydream

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2009, 07:49:17 pm »

VLC plays Blu-Ray from your hard drive great!  Just the video files, though.

This is a disaster of epic proportions.  I seriously want to stop buying all Blu-Ray and even DVD discs period.  Just plain sick of PAYING for a pain in the ***.

I can't agree more with your last thought! :) It is very transparent that the movie industry is extremely afraid to let anything in the Blu-Ray world play on a PC. Come to think of it, IF you get to play a Blu-Ray in MC (meaning having the navigation all worked out by the means of using pixie dust or whatever) what are you going to do with the sound? Buy the Asus Xonar for $150 (if you can find it) so you can bitstream inconsistently the audio to your receiver?

Edit: sorry, you can find, but it's $239 on Newegg. A soundcard.

And then they wonder why this Blu thing is not taking off as it should...
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cncb

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2009, 07:56:25 pm »

Arcsoft TotalMedia Theater 3 plays back ripped blu-ray folders menus and all.

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benn600

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2009, 08:05:14 pm »

I'm not going to complain about high-end hardware.  People who want the best can buy the expensive equipment and get it all.

The problem is that you can't get this at any price.  If this even worked, that would be great.  Then you can worry about getting bit-perfect HD Master Audio directly to your pre-amp.
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benn600

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2009, 08:07:49 pm »

What really bothers me is that if you go through different channels, you get different results.  I mean they offer downloadable content on iTunes and through other stores.  This is basically completely open except for a key...but with that, it will play fine on the computer, probably through any software.
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audunth

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2009, 08:35:02 am »

Is it possible that MC could recognize Blu-ray as a format, like it does with CDs and DVDs? I mean, under File types one can find CD disc and DVD disc, and assign a handling method, for example an external program. If Blu-ray disc was in the File type list, one could assign an external program to play the disc, which means one could select the Blu-ray drive in Theater view and hit play to play the disc.

I also wonder if it's possible to catalog and play Blu-rays and HD-DVDs that are stored as folders/files on the hard drive. With DVDs you just import the folder or VIDEO_TS file into MC, does Blu-ray/HD-DVD have such a "start file"?
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benn600

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2009, 10:08:17 am »

How about explaining how I can get MC to simply play m2ts files?  Then the basic content could be played.  VLC plays them fine.
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jmone

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2009, 02:31:09 pm »

Is it possible that MC could recognize Blu-ray as a format, like it does with CDs and DVDs? I mean, under File types one can find CD disc and DVD disc, and assign a handling method, for example an external program. If Blu-ray disc was in the File type list, one could assign an external program to play the disc, which means one could select the Blu-ray drive in Theater view and hit play to play the disc.

I also wonder if it's possible to catalog and play Blu-rays and HD-DVDs that are stored as folders/files on the hard drive. With DVDs you just import the folder or VIDEO_TS file into MC, does Blu-ray/HD-DVD have such a "start file"?

I store track and manage many of my Blu-ray / HD-DVD's ISO's as follows (look up at my July 06 post above for more details and one day I'll need to update the post it refers to!):  But FYI from the wiki this is how you set ISO's to launch

Quote
http://wiki.jrmediacenter.com/index.php/DVD_Library_in_Media_Center - Firstly, change how MC13 handles the launching of ISO's: Under "Tools --> Options --> File Types", scroll down to the "Data" Section, Select "Disk Image Files" and change the Playback Method to "External Program (default). MC13 will now use Windows default setting to "mount" your ISO's with your default mounter (eg Virtual Clone Drive / Daemon Tools etc).
Tag your ISO Files: You now need to tag each of your ISO files as Video, Audio etc pending on what view you want them to appear in. To do this select you ISO file(s) and change the "Media Type" Library Field to the correct type (eg, "Video" but could be "Audio" if you ISO your CD's). You can then assign Coverart (if desired) as with any other items in the database.
All your ISO's should now apear in the correct area of TheaterView and will Mount, Launch and Play just as you would expect.
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jmone

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2009, 02:32:53 pm »

How about explaining how I can get MC to simply play m2ts files?  Then the basic content could be played.  VLC plays them fine.

You should be able to play the m2ts files now if you have the right filters installed.  The big issue was with the lossless HD codecs but FFDSHOW now supports them.
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Daydream

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2009, 03:06:07 pm »

How about explaining how I can get MC to simply play m2ts files?  Then the basic content could be played.  VLC plays them fine.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this assumes that one movie = one big m2ts file. That is not a prospect that covers 100% the releases out there, some are spread across multiple files, and then you need the internal Blu-Ray playlist to know what goes where in what sequence.
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jmone

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #47 on: December 09, 2009, 03:15:47 pm »

FYI - I'm going to bring all the Blu-ray related stuff into one post at http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=55171.0
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audunth

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2009, 03:49:36 pm »

I store track and manage many of my Blu-ray / HD-DVD's ISO's as follows (look up at my July 06 post above for more details and one day I'll need to update the post it refers to!):  But FYI from the wiki this is how you set ISO's to launch
 

I'm fully aware of how to import and manage ISOs in MC, but my imported DVDs and Blu-ray/HD-DVDs are stored in hard drive folders in their original folder structure (VIDEO_TS for DVDs etc.). Now, the DVDs are handled fine, I just import the VIDEO_TS.ifo file into MC and fill in the correct tags, and it behaves just like any other media file. My question is if the same is possible with the HD formats, in other words, is there a start file in a HD-DVD/Blu-ray folder structure equivalent to the VIDEO_TS.ifo on a DVD, and will MC now, or in the near future, be able to recognize it and execute the appropriate external program?

I know one option is to make images of my imported HD-discs, but I'm just enquiring about the ability to catalog Blu-ray/HD-DVDs stored in their original folder structure without the need for virtual drives to play them back, which means one less piece of software on my computer.
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jmone

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Re: Blu-Ray
« Reply #49 on: December 13, 2009, 04:32:46 pm »

Audun - I posted in the other thread something that may work  ;D
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